Remember me

The Third Round of the Brooks Robinson Tournament

September 26, 2010

September 27, 2010

            OK, as we are now entering the third round of the tournament, let me stop and re-set the brackets:

 

Baltimore Regional

Brooks Robinson (1) against

Jimmy Collins (5)

September 29

Toby Harrah (3) against

Billy Nash (7)

Today

 

Cleveland Regional

Graig Nettles (1) against

Bob Elliott (4)

Today

Ron Santo (2) against

Sal Bando (3)

September 29

 

St. Louis Regional

Gary Gaetti (1) against

Scott Rolen (5)

Tomorrow

Chipper Jones (2) against

Todd Zeile (3)

September 30

 

Los Angeles Regional

Buddy Bell (1) against

Carney Lansford (4) 

Tomorrow

Tim Wallach (2) against

Ron Cey (3)

September 30

 

 

 

Defense Sinks Elliott in Overtime

Graig Nettles 87, Bob Elliott 86 (OT)

 

            Bob Elliott solidly outpointed Graig Nettles in the offensive areas, but lost the first game of the third round of the Brooks Robinson Invitational Tournament due to his inability to play defense at a level that competes with Graig Nettles.

 

 

 

Nettles

Elliott

Power

19

12

Speed

3

9

Hitting For Average

3

27

Plate Discipline

12

12

Career Length

15

10

Defense

24

8

Awards

3

3

Team Success

8

5

Total

87

86

 

 

            Bob Elliott now replaces Ken Boyer as the best player so far eliminated from the tournament.   A part of the California invasion of the game that hit in the late 1930s (along with Ted Williams, Bobby Doerr, Joe Gordon and the DiMaggios), Elliott is more comparable to Boyer than to any other player in the tournament.   He originally came to the majors as a center fielder (Boyer also played center for a year early in his career), moved to right field for two years, then to third base in 1942.   His first three years at third he led the NL in assists every year, but also in errors.    After a couple of years as a part-time third baseman, part-time outfielder he was traded to the Boston Braves.

            Pittsburgh’s Forbes Field was an extremely poor home run park; a very good park for hitting for average, a great park for triples, but poor for home runs.   The Braves put Elliott at third base full-time.   His home run total jumped to 22 (which was still 7 at home, 15 on the road), and he led the league in fielding percentage at third.  He was rewarded by MVP voters with an MVP Award.   He played at the same level the next year, drawing 133 walks.

            Elliott had power, speed, a long career, and a batting average near .300.   He was not a Gold Glove third baseman.   What makes Elliott better than Boyer—or anybody else we’ve eliminated so far—was his consistency, and his strikeout to walk ratio.   Elliott was a regular for twelve years; Boyer was a regular for twelve years—but Boyer was less than a .500 player in three of those years.   Elliott was a .500+ player every year.   Elliott was a .700+ player six seasons; Boyer, four seasons.  Willie Kamm had a better strikeout to walk ratio than Elliott, but Elliott hit six times as many homers, with more doubles and triples.  Elliott drove in 100 runs six times; Ken Boyer did it twice.   Only one other player in the tournament drove in 100 runs as many times (Chipper Jones)—and Elliott wasn’t playing in an inflated-run era like the 1930s or the steroid era.   Elliott’s OPS compared to the league norm (.088) was the fourth-best in this tournament, behind Chipper Jones, Rolen and Santo.  Bob Elliott is a player who very legitimately could have been put into the Hall of Fame.

 

Bob Elliott—Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1939

Pit

22

3

19

.333

.527

.377

.904

4

1

1

1

5

3

.640

6

1940

Pit

23

5

64

.292

.421

.348

.769

14

9

2

7

16

16

.505

16

1941

Pit

24

3

76

.273

.374

.353

.727

12

11

5

4

17

15

.528

18

1942

Pit

25

9

89

.296

.416

.358

.774

15

7

5

5

20

12

.629

24

1943

Pit

26

7

101

.315

.444

.376

.820

18

6

6

4

24

10

.712

31

1944

Pit

27

10

108

.297

.465

.383

.848

16

5

6

4

22

9

.711

28

1945

Pit

28

8

108

.290

.423

.366

.790

13

9

5

4

19

13

.584

21

1946

Pit

29

5

68

.263

.358

.351

.709

11

11

5

4

15

14

.517

16

1947

BosN

30

22

113

.317

.517

.410

.927

21

2

7

2

27

4

.867

39

1948

BosN

31

23

100

.283

.474

.423

.897

20

3

6

2

26

5

.834

37

1949

BosN

32

17

76

.280

.467

.395

.862

16

5

5

2

21

7

.751

28

1950

BosN

33

24

107

.305

.512

.386

.898

19

3

2

5

21

8

.732

28

1951

BosN

34

15

70

.285

.448

.371

.819

13

7

3

4

17

10

.616

20

1952

NYN

35

10

35

.228

.375

.323

.698

6

7

2

3

7

9

.431

6

1953

StLA

36

5

29

.250

.400

.368

.768

3

3

1

1

5

4

.529

5

1953

CWS

36

4

32

.260

.380

.358

.738

5

4

2

1

6

5

.548

7

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

170

1195

.289

.440

.375

.815

205

92

63

53

268

145

.649

329

 

 

 

 

Toby Harrah 77, Billy Nash 76 (Double Overtime)

 

            Toby Harrah survived a 22-3 whuppin’ in the “defense” category to squeak past 19th century star Billy Nash:

 

 

Harrah

Nash

Power

24

6

Speed

5

6

Hitting For Average

12

15

Plate Discipline

12

10

Career Length

14

8

Defense

3

22

Awards

4

2

Team Success

3

7

Total

77

76

 

 

            I have explained before that the “overtime” description is used for contests in which the player who would win the Category comparisons does not win the Win Shares/Loss Shares comparison.   Nash beat Harrah on the category comparisons, however, 349 to 275.   We haven’t had any other contests in which a player the player who lost was that much better in the category comparisons. 

            I am sure I know less about Billy Nash, as a player, than anyone else in the tournament. The SABR publication “Nineteenth Century Stars” contains no entry on Nash, although it contains one-page biographies of dozens of players of lesser quality than Nash.    Retrosheet has not yet published any data that can help us understand him, although that will be coming.

            I have noticed, however, that when you sort baseball players by odd ratios in their data—which is what I spend most of my time doing—Billy Nash often turns up in unexpected places.   This, for example, is a list of the players with the highest ratios of Runs Scored plus RBI, divided by Total Bases (1500 or more games played):

 

First

Last

R

RBI

Runs +RBI

TB

Ratio

Billy

Nash

1072

977

2049

2226

.92

Hugh

Duffy

1552

1302

2854

3163

.90

Billy

Hamilton

1690

736

2426

2708

.90

Cap

Anson

1719

1879

3598

4062

.89

Monte

Ward

1408

867

2275

2606

.87

Fred

Pfeffer

1094

1019

2113

2422

.87

Herman

Long

1455

1054

2509

2936

.85

Mike

Griffin

1405

625

2030

2408

.84

Tom

Daly

1024

811

1835

2197

.84

Bobby

Lowe

1131

984

2115

2542

.83

 

            All 19th century players, sure, but. . .he’s in first, and the four guys behind him (Duffy, Hamilton, Anson and Ward) are all in the Hall of Fame.

            Here’s a list of all the players in history with 800 runs scored, 800 RBI, and 800 walks in less than 1600 games played:

 

First

Last

G

R

RBI

BB

Hank

Greenberg

1394

1051

1276

852

Ralph

Kiner

1472

971

1015

1011

Mickey

Cochrane

1482

1041

832

857

Dolph

Camilli

1490

936

950

947

Larry

Doby

1533

960

970

871

Billy

Nash

1549

1072

977

803

Harlond

Clift

1582

1070

829

1070

Darryl

Strawberry

1583

898

1000

816

 

 

            Sure, it’s a garbage list, but. . .you know who Hank Greenberg is, don’t you?   We know Ralph Kiner, we know Mickey Cochrane, we know Larry Doby.    Why don’t we know Billy Nash?

            Nash was an RBI man.   He doesn’t get credit for that, in our system, because we ignore RBI.   Nash was the third baseman for the greatest team in 19th century baseball, the Boston Braves of the 1890s.   He led the league several times in fielding percentage.   He held the record for double plays by a third baseman in 19th century baseball, up until 1912.   He walked a lot, had very good on-base percentages and exceptional strikeout/walk ratios.   He had ten straight years as a regular and a winning player.

            You can’t get too excited about him because a) he wasn’t a big star, and b) we don’t really know anything about him.  But he is one of those guys, like Dolph Camilli and Bob Elliott and Don Buford and Charlie Keller and Harlond Clift and Heine Groh, who is easily overlooked, but a really good player when you take the time to focus on him.

 

 

Billy Nash—Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1884

Rich

19

1

--

.199

.361

.281

.643

4

3

2

2

6

6

.502

6

1885

Bos N

20

0

11

.255

.298

.271

.569

2

2

0

1

2

4

.369

1

1886

Bos N

21

1

45

.281

.353

.320

.672

9

8

4

4

13

12

.527

14

1887

Bos N

22

6

94

.295

.434

.376

.810

13

6

5

4

18

10

.636

22

1888

Bos N

23

4

75

.283

.397

.350

.747

14

7

9

2

23

9

.716

30

1889

Bos N

24

3

76

.274

.343

.379

.722

11

8

8

1

20

10

.669

24

1890

Bos PL

25

5

90

.266

.379

.383

.762

10

11

9

1

19

12

.611

22

1891

Bos N

26

5

95

.276

.382

.369

.750

12

10

8

2

19

12

.611

23

1892

Bos N

27

4

95

.260

.350

.338

.688

11

11

12

-1

23

10

.696

29

1893

Bos N

28

10

123

.291

.433

.399

.832

13

7

8

1

21

9

.706

27

1894

Bos N

29

8

87

.289

.404

.399

.804

8

13

8

1

17

14

.540

18

1895

Bos N

30

10

108

.289

.417

.383

.800

10

11

6

4

16

15

.505

16

1896

Phi N

31

3

30

.247

.335

.355

.690

4

6

3

2

7

8

.460

6

1897

Phi N

32

0

39

.258

.329

.373

.703

6

9

3

4

10

12

.440

8

1898

Phi N

33

0

9

.243

.300

.346

.646

1

2

1

1

2

3

.444

2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

60

977

.275

.381

.366

.747

127

115

86

30

213

145

.595

247

 

 

            At this point 52 players have been eliminated from the tournament; 14 remain.   This chart compares the 52 players who have been eliminated by Career Win Shares Value.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total

Win Shares

First

Last

Batting

Fielding

Won

Lost

W Pct.

Value

Bob

Elliott

.690

.543

268

145

.649

329

Ken

Boyer

.603

.681

255

155

.621

304

Matt

Williams

.549

.675

220

162

.576

249

Billy

Nash

.526

.739

213

145

.595

247

Harry

Steinfeldt

.525

.677

219

163

.573

247

Harlond

Clift

.604

.614

199

129

.606

234

Heinie

Zimmerman

.633

.548

196

127

.608

231

Ken

Keltner

.567

.664

197

135

.593

227

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doug

DeCinces

.566

.642

198

141

.584

226

Jimmy

Dykes

.502

.618

212

184

.535

226

Willie

Kamm

.488

.690

202

167

.548

220

Adrian

Beltre

.540

.587

201

164

.550

219

Willie

Jones

.533

.618

190

153

.554

216*

Bill

Bradley

.536

.632

198

152

.566

214*

Don

Money

.543

.543

193

163

.543

209

Troy

Glaus

.607

.533

176

122

.592

204

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

Lowell

.553

.659

180

133

.575

203

Freddy

Lindstrom

.577

.520

182

142

.561

202

Kevin

Seitzer

.615

.550

172

115

.601

201

Howard

Johnson

.645

.402

167

117

.588

192

Edgardo

Alfonzo

.595

.547

168

119

.585

192

Aramis

Ramirez

.577

.517

168

129

.565

187

Travis

Fryman

.510

.552

181

168

.518

187

Larry

Parrish

.508

.416

184

193

.487

179

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ray

Boone

.607

.524

153

108

.587

175

Doug

Rader

.517

.609

162

139

.539

174

Jeff

Cirillo

.518

.701

158

127

.554

173

Clete

Boyer

.402

.812

169

169

.501

170

Melvin

Mora

.555

.546

154

124

.553

169

Ken

McMullen

.526

.568

157

136

.536

167

Jerry

Denny

.461

.621

156

149

.511

160

Vinny

Castilla

.406

.643

168

202

.453

150

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hubie

Brooks

.471

.473

158

177

.471

148

Pinky

Whitney

.440

.519

154

180

.461

141

Phil

Nevin

.611

.372

124

95

.566

139

Bill

Melton

.569

.508

127

102

.555

139

Don

Hoak

.480

.664

132

119

.525

138

Joe

Randa

.470

.561

140

147

.488

137

Frank

Malzone

.420

.645

142

159

.471

133

Ray

Knight

.473

.517

134

143

.484

129

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brook

Jacoby

.498

.500

127

128

.498

127

David

Bell

.414

.683

126

143

.469

117

Charlie

Hayes

.419

.573

131

159

.452

117

Dean

Palmer

.508

.308

125

142

.468

117

Steve

Buechele

.435

.655

118

126

.484

115

Jim

Davenport

.437

.579

121

136

.471

114

Tony

Batista

.425

.632

115

133

.465

107

Luis

Salazar

.421

.514

103

130

.442

89

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bob

Aspromonte

.402

.495

108

146

.425

89

Tom

Brookens

.371

.642

99

129

.434

83

Ed

Sprague

.413

.484

96

129

.427

80

Ken

Reitz

.337

.549

110

171

.392

79

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Rank subjectively adjusted

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

COMMENTS (8 Comments, most recent shown first)

jdw
Todd Zeile: neither.

Carney Lansford: Neither

Gary Gaetti: Neither.

Tim Wallach: I think neither. Perhaps I'm underestimating his WSV.

Scott Rolen: I would think he's +100 to have gotten this far. He's almost 300 PA's behind Elliott, with a match in OPS+. Elliott cleared 300 by 29. Rolen rates as a slightly higher % of value on defense, so it doesn't seem like the 300 game in PA should be enough to cause more than a 29 WSV gap. My guess would be Rolen makes both, which is part of what lead to Bill's earlier comments about Rolen.

Jimmy Collins: He is hurt getting to 300 by a low PA total (7452) and won't get there. I think he might join Bob Elliott as one of the "surprise" +100 guys of the tourney.

Chipper Jones: Both easy.

Ron Santo: Both easy.

Toby Harrah: Going to be very close to Ken Boyer, which puts him close to both 300 and +100. Perhaps just short.

Ron Cey: Unless the W-L figures have changed in a year, Cey will rate out higher than Bob Elliot. This makes me very happy. :)

Sal Bando: Very similar to Cey. Cey was a better hitter and appears to be better defensive player from the B/F value list a few articles back. Bando is a better hitter than Boyer with a very near match in PA's. He doesn't appear to be close to Boyer in defense. That may drag him close to both 300 and +100, which is where Boyer ended up. Same close range as Harrah.

Graig Nettles: Over 300 and the high DW% should make +100 fairly easy.

Buddy Bell: Should get to 300 easy. Won't have as high of a Total W% as a lot of other players in the tourney, but my guess would top the W% of Brooks (better BW% and probably not massively behind in FW%). Nettles should have better % than Buddy, and with a longer career better WSV.

Brooks Robinson: He will be over 300 easily. It will be very interesting on +100 side. Should get there, but those last few years may make it close.
6:55 PM Sep 27th
 
jdw
Open question for folks.

We've had two players meet either of Bill's 300 / 100+ HOF criteria: Elliott and Ken Boyer, with each reaching both of the levels.

We have 14 players left: Brooks Robinson, Jimmy Collins, Toby Harrah, Graig Nettles, Ron Santo, Sal Bando, Gary Gaetti, Scott Rolen, Chipper Jones, Todd Zeile, Buddy Bell, Carney Lansford, Tim Wallach, Ron Cey

How many of these guys will meet one or both of the criteria?
12:28 PM Sep 27th
 
bjames
Well, for what it is worth, Nash's Team Success percentage (.638) is much higher than Collins' (.581).
11:40 AM Sep 27th
 
cderosa
Well, Nash wasn't "the" third baseman for the 1890s Nationals, he was "a" third baseman. And I think it is the Collins years, not the Nash years, that is the stronger part of the their case as the best team of the 90s. But this has been illuminating: I guess he was a better player than I thought.
8:11 AM Sep 27th
 
rgregory1956
Bill, as a long time member of SABR (I joined just after you first mentioned it in your Abstracts), I have two SABR publications that have short bios of 19th century stars. "Baseballs First Stars", produced in 1996, has William Mitchell Nash in it. I assume you have a dusty copy somewhere in your library to reference.
7:55 AM Sep 27th
 
jdw
Clarification on the last point: everyone in the Great 8 being in the Top 10/12 *is* what one would want out of a tourney like this.

You're going to get some bad luck draws, as we've seen. But if the ranking by PA's slanted three of the regions overly strong and left the other one far too weak, this would be a lot less interesting. Gaetti, Wallach, Zeile and Lansford as the #1-4 seeds might have been interesting if they happened to draw a Rolen as the #5 beating them all up. But they could have just as easily pulled #5-8 seeds that they could beat as all of them have so far to get into the Sweet 16. Can't say that would have made for interesting reading. :)
4:14 AM Sep 27th
 
jdw
I think we're all underestimating Toby. Looking at the old WS:

OWS
237.5 Elliott
226.5 Harrah
211.1 Boyer

DWS
70.2 Boyer
58.2 Harrah
51.4 Elliott

WS
287 Elliott (288.9)
287 Harrah (284.7)
279 Boyer (281.3)

Harrah's biggest positives were BB and OBP. He's going to crank out a quality Batting %. His defense is poor relative to Nash, but that's because Nash played in an era where defense was critical to 3B's and look at that .739 FW%. Relative to modern 3B's, it's not quite as massive of a gap. His percentage of value based on fielding was down near the bottom, but the gap wasn't as big between he and Cey as it was between he and Nash.

His value should be fairly close to Cey, who will be going through to the Regional Final as well. And it will probably end up being closer to Ken Boyer than to the Matt Williams / Harlond Clift range. My guess is that he's going to be challenging for a Top 10 spot at the end of the tourney, which isn't for a Great 8: that everyone in it is Top 10/12 level. Boyer and Elliot got unlucky in draws, as has Bando.
4:03 AM Sep 27th
 
MarisFan61
Recognizing that Harrah was probably a bit better than I thought (but still less good than a lot of us probably thought when "Hidden Game of Baseball" came out :-) .....I'd say it's a fair guess that he's the least-good player who will be surviving to the 4th round.

I'm glad that Nettles survived against Elliott -- I thought it would be very close. He was always one of my favorite players and I never quite understood why a lot of people seemed to dislike him, although I know he was a bit prickly and a stickler for some things.

Things like this tournament become "real" in our minds, don't they -- as though the real live players were having matches. At least that's how I'm experiencing it. It's like the players (especially if they're living, but maybe more so if they're not) are having personal wins or losses. And if I particularly like them, I share their joy or hurt. :-)
3:29 AM Sep 27th
 
 
©2024 Be Jolly, Inc. All Rights Reserved.|Powered by Sports Info Solutions|Terms & Conditions|Privacy Policy