Remember me

And the Winner Is...

October 4, 2010

JONESIN’, 84-74

October 5, 2010

            I think the expression "Jonesing" (Jonesin’) comes from Jones Beach on Long Island.   My understanding is that there was a period in the fifties and early sixties when drug dealers hung out on Jones Beach, and New York area drug addicts, when they needed a fix, would head for Jones Beach.  .thus, they were "Jonesing" when they needed to get high.   However, I’ve never actually seen this confirmed in print; it is just my understanding, so. . .does anyone know if this is accurate?

            Anyway, Chipper Jones was the best player in our tournament.   I started the tournament, in part, because people were asking me, after Jones’ season-ending (and probably career-ending) injury, a) whether Jones was a clear and obvious Hall of Famer, and b) where he ranked among the great third basemen of all time.   I was wondering about Chipper, and then I was wondering about Mike Lowell, for similar reasons (Lowell’s career has just ended), and I was wondering how Lowell compares to Beltre, and how Jones compares to Santo, how Santo compares to Nettles, how Nettles compares to Boyer, etc.   I just decided to draw up a list and sort them out.  

            This is the "game summary" for Jones against Brooksie:

 

 

Jones

Robinson

Power

20

8

Speed

6

5

Hitting For Average

18

10

Plate Discipline

16

6

Career Length

10

12

Defense

5

24

Awards

3

3

Team Success

6

6

Total

84

74

 

            Essentially, our system believes that Brooks Robinson’s advantage in the field outweighs any of Chipper’s advantages with the bat, but not all of them. 

The real question is, do we accept that?    Do we truly believe, having taken the issue as seriously as we can and studied it as well as we can, that Jones’ batting was worth more than Brooks’s fielding?

            We’ll get to that.   First, let’s look at the two side by side, age by age.  Brooks Robinson came to the majors, as a bonus baby, at the age of 18, playing just a little bit for a very bad team.   At the age of 21 Chipper Jones got his first taste of major league play.   At age 21 Brooks Robinson—still working for a very bad team—had the opportunity to play regularly all season.   He played very badly, got sent back out, came back up the next year and established himself as a quality player at age 22.    At age 23 both players were regulars, and were players of comparable value at that age:

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1955

18

0

1

.091

.091

.091

.182

0

1

0

0

0

2

.000

Brooks Robinson

1956

19

1

1

.227

.386

.244

.631

1

1

0

0

1

2

.371

Brooks Robinson

1957

20

2

14

.239

.359

.286

.645

2

3

1

1

3

4

.437

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1958

21

3

32

.238

.305

.292

.597

6

15

5

2

11

17

.399

Chipper Jones

1993

21

0

0

.667

1.000

.750

1.750

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.000

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1959

22

4

24

.284

.383

.325

.709

6

6

3

1

10

7

.567

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1960

23

14

88

.294

.440

.329

.769

13

14

7

1

20

15

.577

Chipper Jones

1995

23

23

86

.265

.450

.353

.803

13

10

4

2

17

12

.587

 

            It was in 1960 that the Orioles, playing a team of 21-year-old pitchers and minor league veterans/major league rookies, suddenly transformed from a perennial loser to a perennial contender.  At this point, because we are using a low replacement level, Brooks is ahead in career Win Shares Value, 44 to 20.   Brooks has a career won-lost contribution of 45-47; Jones, of 17-12. 

            Chipper stepped up his offensive game the next season, at age 24.    Brooks had a good year at age 24, a great year at age 25, and a very poor season at age 26:

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1961

24

7

61

.287

.397

.334

.730

14

15

6

3

20

17

.535

Chipper Jones

1996

24

30

110

.309

.530

.393

.923

19

5

3

4

23

9

.720

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1962

25

23

86

.303

.486

.342

.828

19

7

5

2

25

10

.715

Chipper Jones

1997

25

21

111

.295

.479

.371

.850

17

8

4

3

21

12

.638

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1963

26

11

67

.251

.365

.305

.670

12

14

6

2

18

16

.528

Chipper Jones

1998

26

34

107

.313

.547

.404

.951

22

3

5

2

27

6

.827

 

            Brooks, leading 44 to 20 at age 23, led 65-50 through age 24, 97-75 through age 25, and 116-113 through age 26.    At 27 both players won MVP Awards:

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1964

27

28

118

.317

.521

.368

.889

20

5

7

2

27

7

.798

Chipper Jones

1999

27

45

110

.319

.633

.441

1.074

25

+2

2

4

27

3

.909

 

            While both players won MVP Awards Chipper’s season, in the judgment of our method, is somewhat better.    Brooks still led through age 27, 153-152—but that would be the last time that he would lead:

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1965

28

18

80

.297

.445

.351

.797

16

6

5

3

21

9

.690

Chipper Jones

2000

28

36

111

.311

.566

.404

.970

19

5

4

3

24

7

.760

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1966

29

23

100

.269

.444

.333

.776

16

10

5

3

21

13

.625

Chipper Jones

2001

29

38

102

.330

.605

.427

1.032

22

1

3

3

25

4

.852

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1967

30

22

77

.269

.434

.328

.763

17

9

7

1

24

10

.713

Chipper Jones

2002

30

26

100

.327

.536

.435

.972

21

1

4

3

25

3

.890

 

            Brooks Robinson played in one of the lowest run environments of any player in our tournament, and we see that here.   In 1967 Robinson hit just .269 with an on base percentage of just .328—yet his won-lost contribution scores at 24-10, a solid All-Star level, even an MVP candidate level.    Robinson’s career run environment was 3.922 runs per game, or 635 runs per season, the fourth-lowest in the tournament.   Jones’ career run environment was 4.623 runs per game, or 749 per season.   People think that Robinson was overrated mostly because they’re not making adequate adjustments for offensive context.  But adjusting for that, Jones is still a much, much better hitter than Robinson.    By the age of 30, Jones was leading Robinson in career value, 256 to 236.

            Somewhere in here (I forget where) Jones hit the tabloids due to his involvement with a Hooters’ girl.   Chipper always reminded me of Mickey Mantle.. .switch hitter, great power, great control of the strike zone, boyish looks and a little too cute for his own good. . .and, had Hooters’ been around when Mickey Mantle was playing, Mickey’s apartment would have been a jungle of orange short shorts, so I wasn’t too shocked by this.  Anyway, there were two controversies of Chipper’s career—that one, and the one that had to do with his playing the outfield.

            Chipper when he was young wasn’t a terrible third baseman; he wasn’t Brooks Robinson, but he wasn’t bad.   He was a little below average for the position.  Using the double plays/errors ratio as a shorthand, his DP/Errors ratio for 1997-98 was 45 to 27.   He went backward from there, however; from 1999 through 2001 it was 46 to 58.   In 2002 Bobby Cox or somebody else in the Atlanta power system decided they couldn’t live with that any more.  They acquired Vinny Castilla—a very good defensive third baseman—and sent Chipper to left field.

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1968

31

17

75

.253

.416

.304

.720

16

11

7

1

23

12

.660

Chipper Jones

2003

31

27

106

.305

.517

.402

.920

20

3

2

5

22

8

.738

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1969

32

23

84

.234

.395

.298

.693

11

16

8

0

19

16

.540

Chipper Jones

2004

32

30

96

.248

.485

.362

.847

13

8

3

3

16

10

.612

 

            At age 32 both players hit under .250.   Chipper by this time had a career won-lost record of 227-74 (value 304); Robinson, of 243-157 (value 286).   Robinson is credited or charged with more decisions for three reasons:  1) He was in the majors several years earlier, 2) He made more outs, thus is held responsible for a larger share of the responsibility for the offense, and 3) The increase in strikeouts between 1960 and 2000 decreased the significance of defensive play at every position, reducing the responsibility for wins and losses that is assigned to fielders.

            Chipper wasn’t happy playing left field, and he was too big a star to make a secret of those things.    There was talk about his leaving Atlanta if he couldn’t go back to third.   In 2002, with Chipper playing third base, the Braves won 101 games but were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs.   In 2003, with Vinny Castilla playing third base, the Braves won 101 games but were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs.   Castilla didn’t hit while he was in Atlanta, so after a couple of years the Braves’ management conceded that maybe it didn’t make all that much difference where Chipper played as long as half the games were in Fulton County, and allowed him to return to the infield.

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1970

33

18

94

.276

.429

.335

.764

16

10

6

2

21

13

.627

Chipper Jones

2005

33

21

72

.296

.556

.412

.968

13

2

2

2

15

4

.788

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1971

34

20

92

.272

.413

.341

.754

16

10

7

2

23

11

.667

Chipper Jones

2006

34

26

86

.324

.596

.409

1.005

16

1

0

4

16

5

.781

 

            As late as the age of 34, the contest between Robinson and Jones is still a very close one.   Robinson was still a good hitter—92 RBI in 1971, and that’s still in an extremely low-run context.  One of Robinson’s teammates led the American League in runs scored that year, with 99.    In 1972, however, Robinson basically stopped hitting.   He was sustained after that by his glovework, his reputation, periodic hot streaks with the bat, and the fact that the Orioles, winning almost 100 games a year, were under little pressure to replace him.   Jones, on the other hand, had two more monster seasons with the bat:

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1972

35

8

64

.250

.342

.303

.644

13

12

7

2

20

14

.586

Chipper Jones

2007

35

29

102

.337

.604

.425

1.029

20

0

3

2

23

2

.917

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1973

36

9

72

.257

.344

.326

.670

10

14

8

1

18

15

.532

Chipper Jones

2008

36

22

75

.364

.574

.470

1.024

19

+3

3

2

22

+1

1.049

 

            This put Jones ahead, 414-381.   After that, they were both in irreversible decline, although Chipper—like Mantle in ’67 and ’68—is actually STILL a very good player because of his very high on-base percentages. 

 

Which

YEAR

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Brooks Robinson

1974

37

7

59

.288

.374

.353

.728

16

7

7

2

22

9

.709

Chipper Jones

2009

37

18

71

.264

.430

.388

.818

15

6

2

4

17

10

.631

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1975

38

6

53

.201

.274

.267

.541

6

16

5

3

11

19

.362

Chipper Jones

2010

38

10

46

.265

.426

.381

.807

9

4

3

1

12

6

.682

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brooks Robinson

1976

39

3

11

.211

.307

.240

.548

2

8

2

2

4

9

.322

Brooks Robinson

1977

40

1

4

.149

.255

.212

.467

0

2

1

0

1

2

.198

 

            I’ll assume that that 3-1 defensive mark for Chipper this year is some kind of a fluke, but what do I know.   Anyway, this chart dis-entangles Chipper and Brooks:

 

Brooks Robinson—Career Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1955

Bal

18

0

1

.091

.091

.091

.182

0

1

0

0

0

2

.000

0

1956

Bal

19

1

1

.227

.386

.244

.631

1

1

0

0

1

2

.371

1

1957

Bal

20

2

14

.239

.359

.286

.645

2

3

1

1

3

4

.437

3

1958

Bal

21

3

32

.238

.305

.292

.597

6

15

5

2

11

17

.399

9

1959

Bal

22

4

24

.284

.383

.325

.709

6

6

3

1

10

7

.567

11

1960

Bal

23

14

88

.294

.440

.329

.769

13

14

7

1

20

15

.577

23

1961

Bal

24

7

61

.287

.397

.334

.730

14

15

6

3

20

17

.535

21

1962

Bal

25

23

86

.303

.486

.342

.828

19

7

5

2

25

10

.715

32

1963

Bal

26

11

67

.251

.365

.305

.670

12

14

6

2

18

16

.528

19

1964

Bal

27

28

118

.317

.521

.368

.889

20

5

7

2

27

7

.798

37 MVP

1965

Bal

28

18

80

.297

.445

.351

.797

16

6

5

3

21

9

.690

26

1966

Bal

29

23

100

.269

.444

.333

.776

16

10

5

3

21

13

.625

25

1967

Bal

30

22

77

.269

.434

.328

.763

17

9

7

1

24

10

.713

32

1968

Bal

31

17

75

.253

.416

.304

.720

16

11

7

1

23

12

.660

29

1969

Bal

32

23

84

.234

.395

.298

.693

11

16

8

0

19

16

.540

21

1970

Bal

33

18

94

.276

.429

.335

.764

16

10

6

2

21

13

.627

25

1971

Bal

34

20

92

.272

.413

.341

.754

16

10

7

2

23

11

.667

28

1972

Bal

35

8

64

.250

.342

.303

.644

13

12

7

2

20

14

.586

23

1973

Bal

36

9

72

.257

.344

.326

.670

10

14

8

1

18

15

.532

19

1974

Bal

37

7

59

.288

.374

.353

.728

16

7

7

2

22

9

.709

29

1975

Bal

38

6

53

.201

.274

.267

.541

6

16

5

3

11

19

.362

7

1976

Bal

39

3

11

.211

.307

.240

.548

2

8

2

2

4

9

.322

2

1977

Bal

40

1

4

.149

.255

.212

.467

0

2

1

0

1

2

.198

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

247

214

115

36

362

250

.592

418

 

Chipper

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1993

Atl

21

0

0

.667

1.000

.750

1.750

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.000

1

1995

Atl

23

23

86

.265

.450

.353

.803

13

10

4

2

17

12

.587

20

1996

Atl

24

30

110

.309

.530

.393

.923

19

5

3

4

23

9

.720

30

1997

Atl

25

21

111

.295

.479

.371

.850

17

8

4

3

21

12

.638

25

1998

Atl

26

34

107

.313

.547

.404

.951

22

3

5

2

27

6

.827

38

1999

Atl

27

45

110

.319

.633

.441

1.074

25

+2

2

4

27

3

.909

39 MVP

2000

Atl

28

36

111

.311

.566

.404

.970

19

5

4

3

24

7

.760

32

2001

Atl

29

38

102

.330

.605

.427

1.032

22

1

3

3

25

4

.852

35

2002

Atl

30

26

100

.327

.536

.435

.972

21

1

4

3

25

3

.890

37

2003

Atl

31

27

106

.305

.517

.402

.920

20

3

2

5

22

8

.738

29

2004

Atl

32

30

96

.248

.485

.362

.847

13

8

3

3

16

10

.612

19

2005

Atl

33

21

72

.296

.556

.412

.968

13

2

2

2

15

4

.788

21

2006

Atl

34

26

86

.324

.596

.409

1.005

16

1

0

4

16

5

.781

22

2007

Atl

35

29

102

.337

.604

.425

1.029

20

0

3

2

23

2

.917

34

2008

Atl

36

22

75

,354

.574

.470

1.044

19

+3

3

2

22

-1

1.049

34

2009

Atl

37

18

71

.264

.430

.388

.818

15

6

2

4

17

10

.631

21

2010

Atl

38

10

46

.265

.426

.381

807

9

4

3

1

12

6

.682

15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

436

1491

.306

.536

.405

.941

284

52

49

47

333

99

.771

450

 

            Chipper wins, 450-418.   Jones’ defensive won-lost record, 49-47, is one of the weakest in the tournament.   Both Jones’ teams and Robinson’s teams were spectacularly successful, over the course of their careers.   Jones ranks second among the 66 players in "Team Success Percentage", behind Sal Bando, and Robinson ranks 7th.   Robinson ranks that low only because of the teams that he played with at ages 18 through 22.

            Now, to the question of what do we actually believe. . .should we believe that Chipper’s advantages as a hitter are more important than Robinson’s advantages in the field. . . .well, the calculation of defensive value in our system does rely, to an extent, upon unverifiable assumptions and inexact parameters.   I use these assumptions and these parameters because they work better than any other that I can find.   I am less unhappy with these than any others—but they’re not perfect, and they’re not truly proven.    One can reasonably argue that Brooks’ fielding was more valuable than I have credited it with being.

            But here’s the best I can do.    We can estimate quite accurately how many runs Robinson created in his career (1,343), and we know how many outs he made (8,340).   In Robinson’s time and place, the league norm was 3.922 runs per nine innings.   For 8,340 outs, that’s 1,211 runs.   Robinson was 132 runs better than an average hitter.

            Chipper created 1,715 runs in his career, while making only 6,017 outs.   The offensive context in which he played was 4.623 runs per nine innings, which is 1,030 runs for 6,017 outs.   Jones was 685 runs better than an average hitter.

            Jones compared to Robinson, then, was about 553 runs better, as a hitter.   The question, then, is "could Robinson have been 553 runs better as a fielder?"

            That’s a lot of runs.    Let’s say that’s 35 runs a year.   Could Robinson have been 35 runs a year better, in the field, than Chipper Jones?

            Let us assume that one "run" is two plays.   35 runs a year is 70 plays a year. 

            Let’s say that a team has 4200 balls in play against them in a typical year.  It’s a little more than that, but even guys like Robinson and Jones will miss a hundred innings a year in the field, so. . .let’s say 4200.   Let us say that there are seven fielders who have to deal with those 4200 plays (excusing the catcher and the pitcher, whose defensive contributions are made in different ways.)   That leaves 600 potential plays per season per fielder. …roughly the same as his number of at bats or plate appearances.

            Nobody makes all of those plays, even Brooks Robinson.   I would speculate that the typical player would make about 68% of the plays in his area, that the best players might make 75%, and the worst defensive players around 60%.

            If all of this speculation is reasonable, then the difference between the best third baseman of a season—the Gold Glove winner—and the worst—Dean Palmer—might be 90 plays per season, 15% of 600.    Chipper Jones, however, was not the worst third baseman of his era.   He may not have been the best, but he was closer to the midpoint than he was to the worst.

            I think it’s really difficult to believe that Robinson was making 70 plays a year in the field beyond the number that would have been made by Chipper. . .possible, not absolutely out of the range of the conceivable, but difficult.

            Brooks Robinson played 25,038 innings at third base in his career and recorded 6,205 assists, or .248 assists per inning.   Chipper played 15,204 innings at third and recorded 3,089 assists, or .203 assists per inning.   If they played 1,400 innings a year at third base, that’s a difference of 62, 63 assists.

            This, however, is without adjusting for context.   Brooks Robinson’s pitchers typically struck out about 940 batters a year.   Chipper Jones’ pitchers typically struck out about 1100. . .let’s say 1080.   For seven fielders, that’s a difference of 20 per season in the number of balls hit in their zone.

            We are squaring in gradually on the point at which we can say we understand fielding records as well as we do hitting or pitching.   We’re not there yet, and I’m not going to say absolutely that Chipper was better than Brooks.   But that’s the best bet based on what I know.  Chipper wins.

 

            Hey, when I get some time I’ll try to add some other third basemen to the list. . . .Ventura has been asked about, Rico Petrocelli, Terry Pendleton, Darrell Evans, the original A-Rod (Aurelio).   Once I get them done, we’ll start blending in the other Hall of Fame candidates (Stan Hack, Larry Gardner, Heine Groh, Ed Yost) and then, eventually, the Hall of Famers (George Kell, Pie Traynor, Eddie M, Home Run Baker, Wade Boggs, Brett and Schmidt).    By then it will be Christmas.   Thanks for reading; hope you got something out of the tourney.

 
 

COMMENTS (38 Comments, most recent shown first)

nettles9
I just took this all as a set of articles that gave the readers a different way to discuss third basemen who were sort of a different type that weren't Schmidt, Brett or Matthews. I thought these articles were well-done and informative. My favorite position in baseball is third base so it was neat to read about different third basemen from the past and present.
3:36 PM Oct 17th
 
kcale
I noticed that the original win shares and the new system differ... take Brooks' batting wins for example.

For the "bad" years, wins in the new system are higher.
Year BWS BW BL
1958 1.8 6 15
1975 1.5 6 16

For Brooks' best year, wins in the new system are lower:
Year BWS BW BL
1964 26.9 20 5

I looked at a few other players and see the same trend. The original WS looks more like a WAR type measure when you compare the two systems. Is there an explanation for this?
8:47 AM Oct 12th
 
MarisFan61
JDW: We keep talking across each other.
You keep talking about what the tournament *is and was* -- and of course you're right about that.

I keep talking about how much sense that makes in view of what it was called.

That's all. :-)

Regarding not that much fuss being made till Chipper won: OF COURSE.
It's one thing for some people who don't really fit the criteria to be in something like this (and as Bill acknowledged going in, Chipper didn't really fit the criteria).
But it gets magnified if one of those people wins.
3:39 PM Oct 11th
 
jdw
Maris: I'm not a fan of tossing tunnel vision around, but it appears that you're tossing it in the wrong directon. Nearly half the field was neither "great" nor "good" fielders. It's not even as if Chipper was the worst fielder in the tourney. He wasn't: ranked in order by "worst", he came in #13 and wasn't close in quality to the worst.

Defense *never* was the determining factor in the inclusion of players. That was obvious to most of us when the names Dean Palmer & Todd Zeile & HoJo were in it, though Bill himself was clear enough in the first post about the criteria not being "hard" where the players had to match all of them. I mean... you watched HoJo, right? You know he was a horrid defensive player, and it's not as if it was a hidden aspect of his game. :)

Chipper won, and most of us suspected he was always going to win, so he takes the heat for All Bad Fielders in the tourney. But the tourney you have in your head never was the one that Bill was running. That was clear from the start, and not just because of Chipper. Those other noted bad fielders should have clued you in.

Pete D: I agree with your point that Chipper is more in the class of those others, though frankly most of them (other than Eddie) will likely turn out to be much better defensively than Chipper. I think that was one of the points of the tourney: Chipper passed through this "group" to show that he's not just a HOF, but someone to be compared to the top tier at 3B.

If Bill were simply to have run him in a comp with he other top tier guys, he would have gotten hammered by most of them. Then we'd wonder how he compared to Santo, Brooks, Evans, etc. By doing the tourney, Bill has gone in the other route.

I think that's a good thing. I think most of us would agree that a 3B better than Brooks, Nettles and Santo is a clear HOFer. That was one of the points we have coming out of the tourney. As runs more 3B's, we'll get a better understand of just how high up Chipper rates.
2:04 PM Oct 11th
 
MarisFan61
P.S. to JDW: I *did* comment early-on about others besides Chipper. I don't know if I even mentioned anyone by name, but I commented in a couple of early posts that the 'membership' was much too broad to suit the title, and explained why I thought so.
5:03 AM Oct 9th
 
MarisFan61
JDW: You're having a little tunnel vision here. Not about the subject, but about what we're saying.

It's a simple difference-of-opinion about a couple of things:

-- How important a "title" is....how important it is that it should really describe what is to come; and

-- How important it is for someone to be a great or at least good fielder to be put in a category with Brooks Robinson.

This was a great tournament, with great articles and great comments from people such as yourself, and I've very much appreciated the attention you've given to comments from others, including the ones from me which I'm sure appeared extremely moronic to most people here. :-)

But you're having some tunnel vision on these little things. It's just a difference of opinion. I personally find the same things odd that Hank did (although he put it with more emotion than I would). :-)
You don't, and that's fine.
But our view isn't unreasonable, and if you feel strongly about those kinds of things, it's not necessarily insignificant either.

One might perhaps say that these are obsessive points. But, after all, this whole field of study is a bit obsessive, isn't it? :-)
Precision and caring about precision, after all, can be positive things.
11:56 PM Oct 8th
 
PeteDecour
I still think Chipper belongs with Brett, Matthews, Schmidt, Boggs, whom he is more comparable to, and would lose to, not with the Brooksies.

Would love to see how Darrell compared with Brooks though
8:54 PM Oct 8th
 
jdw
Maris: I think you and others are making a great deal out of next to nothing given the composition of the 66 players. The notion that this was limited to Real Good Defensive 3B's (which Hank is specifically saying) was not a narrow critera for picking these guys. Dean Palmer? Phil Nevin? HoJo? Lance Parrish? Those are guy *worse* than Chipper who were in the tourney.

Brooks has a FW% of .762, the 4th highest in the tourney behind Collins, Rolen and Clete (just ahead of Nettles and Bell). I think we could very conservatively say that player who have a FW% of .200 below Brooks are not "Brooks Robinson type defensive 3B", and certainly not great. That's conservative, as it lets pass guys like Beltre, Hayes and McMullen who were far from great as well.

So home many people are in the tourney who don't have Brooks Robinson Great 3B Defense by an extremely conservative method?

.561 Joe Randa
.552 Travis Fryman
.550 Kevin Seitzer
.549 Ken Reitz
.548 Heinie Zimmerman
.547 Edgardo Alfonzo
.546 Melvin Mora
.543 Bob Elliott
.543 Don Money
.539 Sal Bando
.533 Troy Glaus
.524 Ray Boone
.520 Freddy Lindstrom
.519 Pinky Whitney
.517 Aramis Ramirez
.517 Ray Knight
.514 Luis Salazar
.510 Chipper Jones
.508 Bill Melton
.501 Todd Zeile
.500 Brook Jacoby
.495 Bob Aspromonte
.484 Ed Sprague
.478 Toby Harrah
.473 Hubie Brooks
.460 Carney Lansford
.416 Larry Parrish
.402 Howard Johnson
.372 Phil Nevin
.308 Dean Palmer

That would be 30 players. 45% of the tourney.

12 of the 30 rate lower than Chipper, an another are +.010 which is probably statistically insignificant. 18 of the 66 players in the tourney, including Chipper, have defense at his level or worse. That's more than a quarter.

It's fine to toss around "Species", but you're not at all being scientific in applying it. You're pointing to Chipper and saying he's a Cat to Brooks' Dog... but ignoring that nearly half the field is Cats.

I suspect the reason we heard very few complaints about the other 29 Not-Brooks Great Defense players, or the 17 players with Chipper-Defense or worse, is that none of those guys Beat Brooks. Brooks is a Wolf among the Dogs, while Chipper is a Lion among the Cats. Those House Cats aren't a problem, and even those Big Cats that fell away through the tourney weren't problems. It's that the Lion ate the Wolf in the end.

And in the end that's why people were complaining about Chipper being in it from the start: we're all saberheaded enough to see that Chipper way going to win this thing. Some of us didn't care for that.

But take a step back: Sal Bando and Bob Elliot were not Brooks-type defensive players. Not even close. They are Big Cats, and ate a number of Dogs along the way.

Would we not have wanted them in it as well? Should Bill have just run a 32 man tourney with a cut off of .600+ FW% (which happened to be exactly how many .600+ men there were in).

As interesting as it is to see that Tom Brookens was a good 3B (.642), I can't say that he's more interesting to have analyzed than Sal Bando (.539) who would have been dropped if all we cared about was defense.

Seriously fellows... nearly half the tourney is made up of guys who played defense in a manner that was far closer to Chipper than it was to Brooks.

Defense never was the sole Species. Bill even copped to that in the opening piece it was on of seven criteria when talking about Rangers 3B:

"Only Buddy Bell is EXACTLY a Brooks Robinson-type third baseman. Buechele was a Brooks Robinson-type except he didn’t have the power to drive in 100 runs, and Palmer was not exactly a Brooks Robinson type because he had too much power and was a God-Awful defensive third baseman, and Harrah perhaps was not exactly a Brooks Robinson type because he walked too much and was better defensively at other positions than he was at third base..."

The three "exceptions" he made:

"We need the play-in games because, out of curiosity and a lack of discipline, I decided to include three third basemen in the tourney who don’t even come close to meeting the definition: Graig Nettles, Chipper Jones and Howard Johnson. Hojo isn’t anywhere near the Brooks Robinson family; he has too much power, too much speed, nowhere near enough defense, plus he’s a switch hitter—but he’s an interesting player and I decided to throw him into the field and see where he comes out."

Nettles was one of the more interesting playes in the tourney given his deep run. HoJo was a "fun" exception.

Again, I think folks don't like Chipper in it because he *won*, not because he broke the mold anymore than most of the field.
2:20 PM Oct 8th
 
MarisFan61
re Hank and JDW: Your opposite views on "Maz-Brooks, Chipper-Rogers" are interesting because they represent different ways of seeing players -- both ways being valid, IMO.

JDW is looking at it in terms of exactly how good the players are. On that level, JDW is right -- the comparison doesn't work. But there's another way of looking at it, to which I'm partial because it would be my main way: *what basic types of players* they are -- their "species," so to speak (which is a consideration that I, like Hank, would have thought would be crucial for a grouping like "Brooks-Robinson-type"). On that level, to me it's clear that the comparison is spot-on. Regarding the differences in "goodness," I don't think that un-does the comparisons, since all these players are VERY GOOD, and that's enough for it to work.

To some extent this is about "lumpers vs. splitters." And it's not that the three of us are in one camp or the other, but that we're lumping and splitting opposite things. JDW is lumping on the "species" aspects, but splitting on the exact goodness; Hank and I are doing the opposite.
12:27 AM Oct 8th
 
jdw
Maz-Brooks, Chipper-Rogers is a bad analogy:

* Brooks was #7 in the NewHistAb for 3B
* Rogers was #3 at 2B
* Maz was #29

Chipper rates above Brooks. But above Schmidt? No. Brett? No. Mathews? No.

So he's not a Top 3 vs #7ish, left along a #29 at the position.

Is he above Boggs (#4) or Baker (#5)? That gets interesting.

But he's far closer in "ranking" to Brooks than Rogers is to Maz. Even if Bill applied the old mix of Career/Peak that he had in the NewHistAb, the game under the new WS method would be massive between Rogers and Maz.

Brooks was the "known" standard in this tourney: the Hall Of Famer that eveyrone else could be compared to. We got one of the standard saber HOF candidates in Santo. We got some of the interesting gray area players like Cey, Bando and Elliott. We got two active players who have made strides there in Chipper and Rolen. Given the choice between Chipper being in it and the other semi-obvious "lets compare him to Brooks" choice, Chipper was a more interesting person to see his nearly whole career analyzed rather than watching Darrell Evans march to the Final.

Say Bill did one of these for CF's called the Kirby Puckett Tourney. I'd love to see how Jimmy Wynn, Brett Butler and other guys do, some of whom he previously ran on the site in a comp. But I also wouldn't have a problem if it included Bernie Williams as it would give us a chance to see how he rates. I wouldn't be too bent if Griffey Jr. was in it, though the gap between Griffey Jr and Puckett in WSV is likely massive relative to the gap between Brooks and Chipper.

We got a look at 60+ 3B. I can see raising the issue of a non-3B being in the group, which I did right above with Edgar. :) But complaining about being able to watch Bill analyze Chipper is smacking a gift horse.
11:52 PM Oct 7th
 
MarisFan61
P.S. Does the "title" matter? Does it matter if a definition was followed?
I'm not sure. :-)
It helps if one does -- but this has been great even if it 'broke some rules'.....
9:18 PM Oct 7th
 
MarisFan61
The above post is right.
I also mentioned early-on that I thought the 'definition' wasn't much being observed, and Chipper is probably the hugest stretch of all.
I would have thought "Brooks Robinson type" meant outstanding defensive players, but it was clear it didn't mean that. But still, one would think it would require being at least a *real good* defensive player, but Chipper isn't that either. Plus, he's not a righty hitter, he's a switch hitter.

I wouldn't have wanted this tournament to have been any different; I just think the title should have been different.
6:56 PM Oct 7th
 
hankgillette
It seemed pretty obvious to me when you added Chipper into the mix that he was a ringer. Not only (as you said) is he not a Brooks Robinson type third baseman, but his hitting is so much better than everyone else in the tournament that his offense was likely to overwhelm any defensive deficiencies. So, you have the least Brooks Robinson-like player winning the Brooks Robinson tournament.

I think next you should have a Bill Mazeroski tournament, but just for fun, throw in Rogers Hornsby.
6:46 PM Oct 7th
 
MarisFan61
Note to Bill: I posted your material on Nettles from the Oct. 3 article onto the Yankee discussion site of mlb.com. (With attribution, of course, and a link to the Home Page here.) I'm assuming that's OK....if not, I can delete it.
Few of the people there are much into sabermetrics but we're working on it. :-)
I think material like that about Nettles helps.
5:52 PM Oct 6th
 
jdw
Baker: Here's a quick hint on Evans:

OPS+/PA
119/10737 Evans
110/10226 Nettles (.569 BW% / 395 BW+BL)
109/10009 Bell (.556 BW% / 384 BW+BL)
125/9396 Santo (.646 BW% / 347 BW+BL)
121/8344 Cey (.658 BW% / 310 BW+BL)
119/8288 Bando (.673 BW% / 310 BW+BL)

He and Nettles have very similar number of outs (7075 to 7096). But even factoring in the Parks, Evans is more in the class of Cey and Bando as a hitter... but with 2400+ more PA's.

Just a WAG of 380+ BW+BL at a .650+ clip clip. 380 * .650 is 247-133, which (not planned) is the same number of BW as Brooks above: 247-214.

He gives a good deal back defensively due to a low number of games at 3B relative to the other guys in the tourney.

Speaking of low numbers at 3B, a little over 25% of Edgar's games were at 3B and more then 2/3rds were at 1B. He really doesn't belong in the 3B grouping as there is no one remotely comperable to him in that way. If people truly thought of Edgar as a 3B, he'd be short tracked for the HOF.

We really need a DH and/or the old Multi-Positional Category for him and someone like Molitor who has a similar small percentage of games at 3B.
5:30 PM Oct 6th
 
smbakeresq
Just doing a quick baseball reference stop, Brooks hit .267/.322/.401 in that run enviroment. Playing in 750 run environmnent, Chippers was 749, that improves to .284/.340/.424. Thats looks better, but of course we all know here it isnt.

I think another way to look at it is this, if you hit like Chipper you can be just ok at third and have a very long career. If you hit like Brooks though, you better be great defensively to play 20 years.
12:37 PM Oct 6th
 
smbakeresq
One of things that can be taken from this is that Brooks with his fielding advatages in a low run/low strikout environement is approximately as valuable as Chipper, who with his batting advantages played in a higher-run/higher strikout environment.

There is a lot of ways to win, and dependng on where the needle sits on the value of defense vs offense in your era, one is valued slightly higher than the other,

I am very curious about Evans, since he was a good third baseman with Adam Dunn type batting skills. Actually since he came first wouldnt Dunn have Darrell Evans type skills?
12:25 PM Oct 6th
 
PeteDecour
thanks for doing that. it was fun. I look forward to the complete 3b list.

would love to see a similar tournament for 2bs, the Maz-White tourney
10:23 AM Oct 6th
 
Robinsong
When I was growing up, I definitely wanted to be related to Brooks and Frank and Jackie and even Wilbert. It was deflating to discover that my great grandfather had been given the name by an immigration judge who said you couldn't be a Yecht in America. [The tourney format allows head to head comparisons on different dimensions and more focus.]
Marc [Yecht] Robinson
7:28 AM Oct 6th
 
Bucky
Wow! What a great exploration through baseball history and theory. It was dense reading in places, but that's going to happen when you care about facts and information.
I hope that you are inspired to have more such tournaments.
6:51 AM Oct 6th
 
Steven Goldleaf
robinsong (Brooks Robinsong?)--

thanks for the clarity on the evolution of WS. Hopefully, it will take less time than Darwin's evolution to be revealed. Now, I wish someone could explain what a basketball tournament has to do with 3Bmen.
6:43 AM Oct 6th
 
MarisFan61
JDW: Thanks for the reply -- and for taking the point as seriously as you were able to bring yourself to do. :-)

The examples/analogies you cited are good ones, but I think only up to a point. The difference about this thing is that I think it's a "dynamic" that relates to areas *other than its own area*.
"Hitting behind the runner" and "going 1st to 3rd" are offense, and they relate only to offense -- which means not only that their effect is more restricted, but also that they were easily dismissed as possible major factors because we could see that offense can be accurately totaled without regard to them. This thing about "defense helping save a pitching staff," since it's about defense but relates to pitching and potentially also to offense via the possible effect on roster composition, is harder to evaluate and to dismiss. Of course that doesn't mean it's important, but....we're left with our own impression of how important it could be. I gather you're not impressed about it, and I imagine most others here aren't either. My impression is that it can be quite large and that for most teams it is at least significant. I realize there's a big question mark on it, but I do feel it's a clear issue that seems to have been completely ignored in sabermetrics and which gives some extra importance to fielding. I can't begin to quantify it as you ask, nor as I wish I could.
1:25 AM Oct 6th
 
jdw
Maris: I think no one touches it because it's a bit too much like the old claims that RC doesn't give enough credit to bunting, fails to factor in hitting behind the runner, and doesn't count going first-to-third.

How about we flip this:

How many Defensive WS and LS do you think Brooks should have been assigned in 1969? How much for the rest of the Defense on the O's that year? How would you allocate the Pitching WS and LS? How would you allocate the batting WS and LS?

There are 327 WS to allocate, and 159 LS.

Bill back in 2002 allocated 47.1% of the WS to Offense, 36.9% to Pitching, and 16% to Fielding. Perhaps that's changed, and that wouldn't tie to LS.

What are your numbers for Brooks and the rest of the O's rather than the rather spectacular 8-0 WS-LS that Bill gave him? :/

It is a fact to state that old RC didn't factor in hitting behind the runner and going first-to-third. But is statistically significant relative to hitting .300, drawing 100 walks, or pounding 30 bombs? That's really how your "soft" items come across.
10:51 PM Oct 5th
 
MarisFan61
Neat and clever comments all around!
The tournament and Bill's articles have inspired a lot of good stuff. :-)

to JDW: I AGREE with what you said about my comments!! Indeed, what I said contains a lot of the pre-historic gobbledygook in it. But I'm assuming people realize that I'm reasonably informed and well read on sabermetrics (and I am) :-) and that I'm indicating that I believe there is STILL some voice of the old stupid stuff that deserves more attention. I don't disagree with any of what you said about the McCaffrey book (and I'm glad to see that you know the book too!) -- but still it's a fact that the surveyed players put more emphasis to defense than do any of our metrics. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything, and I even gave a rationale for why maybe such surveys and discussions are *inherently* biased toward over-emphasizing defense. I also realize that one book/one survey doesn't necessarily show what "players" think, more so since that was done so long ago.

What I'd really like to see is some comment on that point about how fielding helps save a pitching staff, which can have positive ripple effects on many aspects of a team, including its roster makeup. Unless I missed something, nobody has touched that. It seems to me that this is a concrete aspect of fielding (although admittedly a "soft" one) that isn't taken into account in any of the metrics, and which in itself would seem to indicate that there is at least a bit more credit owed to defense than what has ever been included in any analysis.
10:06 PM Oct 5th
 
Robinsong
Steven -
Bill has refined his original Win Shares method and developed a method of calculating Win and Loss Shares, which comes up with different numbers. Win Share Value (WS+(WS-LS)/2) is related but not identical to old Win Shares. New Win Shares do not necessarily add up to 3xTeam Wins. Bill is slowly rolling out the system and its impact on selected player rankings (see other articles in the archives). The tournament was much more fun than just publishing a table of Win Share Values of the 67 third baseman, partly because of the element of suspense, partly because Bill writes so well about the players and their accomplishments and how they compare. It was a chance to capture the magic of the New Historical Abstract real time and to get a fresh perspective on an important topic. Well worth the ticket price!
9:55 PM Oct 5th
 
Steven Goldleaf
Enough of etymology for now. I have a more basic question: apart from the fun aspect of doing this via one-on-one matchups, like a college basketball tournament (which I never follow, and so got confused by here), what did we just do other establish that Chipper had 450 total WS and Brooks had 418? I mean, did we just go through a whole elaborate adventure reaching a foregone conclusion that we might have reached by looking up the current lifetime WS totals? I'm sure not, because that would have been an exercise in tail-chasing, but damned if I can understand it any better than that --could someone explain to me what we just did, in case we do it again? It sounds like you guys had fun here--I'd like to participate.
6:46 PM Oct 5th
 
Steven Goldleaf
Bill--brilliant on thirdbasemen, clueless on folk etymology. As it happens, I read your bit on Jonesing as I returned from a run on Jones Beach--it's ridiculous to think that junkies in NYC would routinely pick Jones Beach as a place to meet. It's about 40 miles from Manhattan, and reachable mainly by car (thanks to the car-crazy Robert Moses, NY's powerful Commissioner of Parks for over 40 years, who also refused Walter O'Malley the land in Brooklyn O'M wanted that was accessible by about seven subway lines. The NJ Nets are relocating there now)--Jones Beach is also wide open (I was the only runner on the beach this morning) and the junkies would be spotted by police from a mile in any direction, with no possible way to escape detection. But wikianswers suggests (quoting from an article in The New York Times March 17, 2002) "The slang term jones, meaning an addiction to drugs, is said to have originated among addicts who lived in Great Jones Alley, off Great Jones Street, between Broadway and Lafayette Street." This seedy little alleyway is in the East Village, and probably has never had few than 500 drug addicts crossing it every half-hour since 1935.
5:53 PM Oct 5th
 
evanecurb
Of all of the players who have Brooks Robinson - like characteristics, Brooks is the winner. Not surprising I guess. Of all the Brooks Robinsons in the world, he's the Brooks Robinsonest.
5:17 PM Oct 5th
 
jdw
I'll add on the McCaffery's book that the survey was done:

* 10 years after Brooks' retirement
* while Schmidt was active
* before Schmidt won his 3rd MVP
* before Schmidt's strong 1986+1987 seasons
* before Schmidt hit HR #500
* before Schmidt got into the HOF

That he game in 3rd as actually a positive for *Schmidt*, not for Brooks. Active players rarely do well in things like that.

We're now 20+ years past Schmidt's retirement. We would get wildly different results now.

Brooks still would do well because the "Brooks is the best ever" meme was a strong and long one. But to put any weight on that in a Brooks vs Schmidt sense, or how it valued defenders, just isn't useful.

The Brooks vs Mathews results in the book are interesting, and are telling of how Eddie fell off the cliff in discussions about the greatest 3B of all-time. But that's also very much the meme of the 70s into the early 80s: Eddie rarely got mentioned, while Brooks was the standard we tossed around any kid made great play at 3B. Brooks with the gold gloves and 1970 WS left a lasting impression. Eddie's 500 HR's got lost in Hank & Willie along with an era of Ted, Mickey, Killer and Robby also gettin there.
3:59 PM Oct 5th
 
jdw
I get the feeling reading Maris of the points people made 30 years ago about what was "missing" from RC, and not too far off from the old "Ozzie saves 100 runs a year" claims.
3:37 PM Oct 5th
 
schoolshrink
Love the tourney, thanks. Since you are considering other names, is it possible to project how Edgar Martinez may have played at third base in place of Jim Presley? Of course there is no way to know how he would have performed for certain, but I think it might help in discussing his HOF candidacy if those lost years could be analyzed. I always thought the M's management never understood how good Edgar was because they would see signs of good play with the hound dog, and ignored all of the deficiencies. And maybe part of the problem was that Edgar was too nice at the time -- he needed to be like Chipper and speak up. But I am just speculating here. Thanks.
2:24 PM Oct 5th
 
MarisFan61
One thing we seem unanimous about (literally): Third basemen have been underappreciated, historically and still, and they need to be seen a bit differently.

I think we need an Op-Ed piece, if not a book....
1:27 PM Oct 5th
 
jsc1973
Chipper will be in the Hall of Fame. He'd be a reasonable Hall of Fame candidate at any position. The problem with third basemen, as has been stated before, is that they tend to be held very close to the standards of a hitters' position, even though third base requires a substantial defensive contribution as well. Ron Santo is not a good Hall of Fame candidate if he had been a first baseman or corner outfielder; at those positions he would have just been a good ballplayer--but as a third baseman, he should undoubtedly be in Cooperstown.

Brooks Robinson avoided this problem because he was perceived as a defensive superstar, and as such, was recognized as a great player.

If the standards were at the place they should be, then Nettles should be in, probably Ken Boyer, and definitely Darrell Evans. If Darrell Evans played today, with people so much more aware of the value of OBP, he would be recognized as a star.

Terry Pendleton was mentioned in the article. I don't take him to be a Hall of Famer, but I strongly suspect that if he'd escaped from Busch Stadium to Atlanta five years sooner than he did, we'd be talking about him as a strong candidate today. If Adrian Beltre re-signs with Boston this off-season, the same thing goes for him. Both men played in very poor ballparks for their hitting style until they passed the age of 30.
11:05 AM Oct 5th
 
jdw
Really fun and thought provoking reading, Bill. Thanks for all the work and write-ups. I thought the finale might be an anti-climax, but this is one of the best pieces of the tourney.
10:59 AM Oct 5th
 
Robinsong
What a fun and informative tournament! I eagerly look forward to the full third base list, particularly Evans, Hack, and Traynor. I did a quick check on baseball-reference, and third baseman were 11 of the 40 HOF eligible position players with over 50 WAR who were not in the Hall (44 HOF position players -not counting those elected as managers- had less than 50 WAR) - note that this does not count Rolen and Jones, but includes Evans, Hack, Ventura, and Leach [will you get to him too, Bill?] and the other six with over 300 WSV. Just more evidence that third basemen are terribly underrepresented in the Hall; it is great to have Bill give them their due. I've added Chipper, Graig, and Scott to my list of people I want to see in the Hall (along with Santo of course!).
9:11 AM Oct 5th
 
cderosa
For those who came of age sabermetrically in the late 80s, it is harder to believe that Robinson's defensive advantage could offset Jones's offensive edge. I had Chipper going all the way, and Robinson getting bounced in the semis. Those (like me) who think Robinson is overrated may not have adequately compensated for his low run environment, but I think the bigger factor is that we're still digesting the spread between players as defenders.

That and the fact that some people will still call Robinson the greatest 3B of all time, and that he filched a few of Nettles's gold gloves...
8:35 AM Oct 5th
 
MarisFan61
P.S. I should mention that in the McCaffrey book, the authors did state that if the survey were repeated a decade later, Schmidt and Brett probably would have beaten Brooks.
1:12 AM Oct 5th
 
MarisFan61
I've talked about how I feel that in general, defense deserves more emphasis than it is given in sabermetric calculations. The only rationales I've been able to give are 'soft':
-- Defense helps save a pitching staff, which not only perhaps helps pitchers stay in games longer and perhaps stay healthier, but also perhaps allows a team to carry one fewer pitcher and gain an extra position player.
-- Impressionistically, it seems to me that teams with bad or even (just) adequate defense tend not to win championships.

And for what it's worth, I'll add that players themselves seem to put more emphasis on defense in rating their peers than sabermetrics does. There was a book 23 years ago called "Players Choice," by 2 guys named McCaffrey, which gives the interesting results of players surveys about the best players of all time (and which Bill mentioned in at least one of his books). For a number of positions, including third base, the players clearly gave defense a lot more weight than we do. For example, Brooks finished 1st in a landslide, with Schmidt well behind in 3rd place. Granted, a lot of the voters were old-old timers (and Pie Traynor came in 2nd) :-) and I certainly don't assume that players know better than analysis does. Still, I wouldn't dismiss the seeming fact that players themselves put more weight on defense.

Bill allows that maybe the current system doesn't give the right weight to defense: "the calculation of defensive value in our system does rely, to an extent, upon unverifiable assumptions and inexact parameters. I use these assumptions and these parameters because they work better than any other that I can find." A lot about this remains up for grabs.

Things like the McCaffrey survey may inherently bias the results toward defense because the question is phrased in terms of position -- I mean, when we ask "who's the best third baseman," maybe we are making people think too heavily of how well the guys play the position, rather than how good they are as overall players. And in turn, perhaps the concepts that many of us possess regarding the importance of defense has been influenced by such discussions that we've heard all our lives, which are often framed according to position.

Taking all that into account, I still think defense counts for more than analysis seems to permit. If I'm starting a team and I have to take either Brooks or Chipper for third base, I take Brooks -- and in fact, Chipper wouldn't even be in the discussion, because he's not a good enough third baseman.
1:01 AM Oct 5th
 
 
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