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2013 BJOL HOF Ballot

By Dave Fleming

November 29, 2012

It’s that time again...the 2013 BJOL HOF Ballot has arrived!

For those just turning in, we’ve been running a parallel Hall-of-Fame vote here at the BJOL for the last four seasons. We run it with the same rules that the annual BBWAA ballot has: you can vote for up to ten players, 75% of votes gets a player elected, and falling below 5% gets a player dropped from future ballots.

Please post your ballots in the comments section of this article (bottom of the page). Anyone keen to discuss various candidates should start a thread over at the Reader’s Comments section of the site.

* * *

Before we get started, I should note an important change to our annual vote. Economic forces beyond our control have left those of us at BJOL unable to pay the rent for the glorious hall where we’ve previously celebrated our elected players. Instead, we’ve had to move into the basement of our mom’s house, to cut our costs. Thanks, moms. You are all the best.

Because of this necessary (and obviously predictable) move, what was formerly known as the “Bill James Online Hall of Fame” is now the “Bill James Online Basement of Superlatives”, or BJOL-BOS. This seems altogether fitting and proper, as players like Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, and Edgar Martinez, while perhaps not ‘famous’ enough to qualify for a hall that measures fame, are certainty superlative baseball players. It is our pleasure to continue recognizing their excellence.

It should be noted that other locations were considered: we debated the “Garage of Productivity”, but that would mean cleaning out the old lawn tractor, and the acronym GOP might send the wrong message. “Guest Room of Greatness” (GRoG) had a nice Viking thing going for it, but it seemed too transitory. “Couch of Wins Above Replacement Demigods” was a strong contender, but it was thought best not to offend readers.

So Basement of Superlatives it is....welcome to the 2013 BJOL-BOS vote!

(What do you mean I’m playing up my hometown? That accusation is spurious and unfounded!)

* * *

Here’s a summary of our first four elections:

2009	%	2010	%	2011	%	2011	%
R. Henderson	100%	Rb. Alomar	93%	Jeff Bagwell	95%	Ed. Martinez	76%
Tim Raines	89%	B. Larkin	90%
B. Blyleven	86%	M. McGwire	85%
A. Trammell	76%

Mark McGwire	64%	Ed. Martinez	50%	Ed. Martinez	73%	Andre Dawson	52%
Andre Dawson	21%	Lee Smith	35%	Lee Smith	40%	Larry Walker	50%
Tommy John	18%	Dale Murphy	27%	R. Palmeiro	33%	R. Palmeiro	48%
Dale Murphy	17%	Andre Dawson	25%	Fred McGriff	25%	Fred McGriff	36%
Lee Smith	14%	Fred McGriff	18%	Larry Walker	23%	Kevin Brown	24%
Don Mattingly	10%	Dave Parker	15%	Jack Morris	22%	John Olerud	18%
Jack Morris	10%	Don Mattingly	12%	Kevin Brown	22%	Ber. Williams	18%
Jim Rice	6%	Jack Morris	10%	A. Dawson	18%	Dale Murphy	15%
Harold Baines	5%	Harold Baines	7%	Dale Murphy	15%	Lee Smith	15%
Dave Parker	5%	Kevin Appier	3%	D. Mattingly	12%	Jack Morris	13%
Jesse Orosco	3%	A. Galarraga	3%	Jim Rice	10%	Dave Parker	11%
David Cone	2%	Robin Ventura	2%	Dave Parker	7%	Jim Rice	7%
Mo Vaughn	2%	Ellis Burks	0%	John Olerud	5%	D. Mattingly	5%
Jay Bell	0%	Pat Hentgen	0%	H. Baines	2%	Brad Radke	0%
Ron Gant	0%	Mike Jackson	0%	John Franco	2%	Tim Salmon	0%
Mark Grace	0%	Eric Karros	0%	Ju. Gonzalez	0%	Brian Jordan	0%
Dan Plesac	0%	Ray Lankford	0%	Ti. Martinez	0%	Javy Lopez	0%
Greg Vaughn	0%	S. Reynolds	0%	R. Mondesi	0%	Bill Mueller	0%
Matt Williams	0%	David Segui	0%	Al Leiter	0%	Jer. Burnitz	0%
Todd Zeile	0%	Carlos Baerga	0%	Eric Young	0%
Bret Boone	0%	Vinny Castilla	0%
M. Grissom	0%	Phil Nevin	0%
Lenny Harris	0%	Ruben Sierra	0%
B. Higginson	0%	T. Mulholland	0%
C. Johnson	0%	Tony Womack	0%
Kirk Reuters	0%
B. Santiago	0%
B.J. Surhoff	0%

We’ve let nine players into our parallel-universe Hall-of-Fame: two speedster OF’s (Henderson and Raines), three multi-tooled middle infielders (Trammell, Larkin, and Alomar), two slugging 1B’s (Bagwell, McGwire), a DH (Martinez) and a starting pitcher (Blyleven).

* * *

This year’s ballot is crowded, and (ahem) controversial. Here are the candidates for the 2013 class, along with their career rWAR and Win Shares:

2013 BJOL Basement of Superlatives Ballot

Name	Career rWAR	Career Win Shares	% of Prev. BJOL Vote
Barry Bonds	158.1	704	--
Roger Clemens	133.9	429	--
Curt Schilling	76.1	252	--
Larry Walker	67.3	308	50.0%
Rafael Palmeiro	66.0	394	48.4%
Kenny Lofton	64.9	287	--
Kevin Brown	64.0	242	24.2%
Craig Biggio	62.1	428	--
Andre Dawson	57.0	340	51.6%
John Olerud	56.8	302	17.7%
Mike Piazza	56.1	324	--
Sammy Sosa	54.8	321	--
Fred McGriff	50.5	326	35.5%
David Wells	49.2	210	--
Bernie Williams	47.3	312	17.7%
Dale Murphy	44.2	230	14.5%
Jim Rice	41.5	282	6.5%
Steve Finley	40.4	297	--
Julio Franco	39.7	281	--
Jack Morris	39.3	225	12.9%
Dave Parker	37.8	327	11.3%
Reggie Sanders	36.7	208	--
Shawn Green	31.4	236	--
Lee Smith	29.7	198	14.5%
Jeff Cirillo	28.7	169	--
Woody Williams	28.1	118	--
Rondell White	25.5	151	--
Ryan Klesko	20.4	230	--
Aaron Sele	17.5	111	--
Roberto Hernandez	16.7	144	--
Jeff Conine	16.2	193	--
Royce Clayton	15.9	158	--
Mike Stanton	13.3	105	--
Sandy Alomar, Jr.	11.6	115	--
Jose Mesa	9.6	126	--
Todd Walker	8.3	122	--

* * *

Because the ballot is so crowded, we’re going to break it down into camps. We’ll start with the obvious one:

All-Time Greats

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
LF	Barry Bonds	158.1	704	Most HR, Runs Scored, Walks of all-time. Seven MVP's.
SP	Roger Clemens	133.9	429	354-186 lifetime record, 143 ERA+. Seven CY, MVP.

In this group we have (arguably) the best position player of all-time, and (arguably) the best pitcher of all time. In a nice act of balancing, each has won seven of their major awards. That’s seven MVP’s for Bonds, who perhaps deserved a few more, and seven Cy Young Awards for Clemens, who deserved seven, but probably not the seven he got.

The only reason to note vote for either candidate is the possibility that either used performance-enhancing drugs. Or: you think the basement should be really small, and the standards of Superlative-ness should be ridiculously high. Basically Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, and maybe Honus Wagner.

Starting Pitchers

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
SP	Curt Schilling	76.1	252	216-146 record, 127 ERA+, 3116 k's, bloody sock.
SP	Kevin Brown	64.0	242	211-144 record, 3.28 ERA, 127 ERA+, (some) blood.
SP	David Wells	49.2	210	239-157 record, 108 ERA+. Called 'Boomer.'
SP	Jack Morris	39.3	225	254-186 record, 3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+. Called ‘Jack.’

Nice ‘pairs’ here. By the standard measure of wins and losses, Morris and Wells are a tick ahead of Schilling and Kevin Brown. But the advanced metrics suggest that Schilling and Brown have the edge over their winning-er peers. Subjectively, David Wells is probably not remembered as being the quality pitcher that the other three were, but that’s mostly the white noise from his over-sized personality. Wells was an excellent pitcher, though not in the company of Schilling and Brown, and perhaps not on par with Morris, either.

Paired by personality, it’s Wells/Schilling and Brown/Morris. Probably don’t want the first two started on politics.

First Basemen

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
1B	Rafael Palmeiro	66.0	394	3020 hits, 560 HR, 1865 RBI. Sang about belugas.
1B	John Olerud	56.8	302	1993 batting title, 255 HR. Wore a helmet
1B	Fred McGriff	50.5	326	493 HR, 1550 RBI, 134 OPS+. Crime Dog.

Rafael Palmeiro is sort of an amalgam of McGriff and Olerud: an excellent fielder with a good batting average and considerable power. Win Shares credits Raffy as being better than the other two, though all three cross the 300-line, and are thus legitimate candidates for the Hall-of-Fame/Basement-of-Superlatives.

rWAR has it considerably closer, though Raffy is still ahead. Of course, there’s the big ‘S’ hanging over his head.

Middle Infielders/Catchers/Biggio

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
2B	Craig Biggio	62.1	428	3060 hits, 291 HR, 1844 Runs scored, 414 SB. A 'Killer B'.
C	Mike Piazza	56.1	324	.308 BA, 427 HR, 1335 RBI. Most HR by a C. Great hair.
SS/2B	Julio Franco	39.7	281	2586 hits, 173 HR, 281 SB. Best batting stance ever.

Had to lump Piazza with someone.

We have another Win Shares/WAR divide, with WAR rating Biggio just a few ticks ahead of Piazza, while Win Shares gives Biggio a considerable advantage. Neither man is the best at their respective position, but both are clearly in the top-ten, and possibly the top-five.

Julio Franco is one of my all-time favourites...if I am playing a meaningless game of baseball I typically imitate his batting stance.

Franco is one of those players who could’ve gotten to 3000 hits, if he had gotten a few more breaks:

-His first full year in the majors with 1983, when he was twenty-four. He wasn’t great, but he managed to hit .286 as a rookie with 153 hits and 32 stolen bases. He finished second in the ROY voting. If he had come up in 1982, he might’ve tacked on one hundred extra hits. We’re being conservative.

-He missed a year in 1992, right at the apex of his abilities as a hitter. He collected 201 hits the year before (and the AL batting title). He probably lost 150 hits that year....we’re at 250 lost hits.

-He went to Japan for 1995. He had hit .319 for the White Sox in 1994 and he’d hit .322 for the Indians in 1996, so it’s likely he would’ve been productive in 1995....we’ll say 130 hits lost in translation. 380 now.

-In 1998 he went back to Japan. In 2000 he moved to South Korea. Must’ve wanted some pho. Save for one at-bat as a Devil Ray in 1999, Franco didn’t play in the majors for three years. He came back with the Braves and hit .300 in 25 games, and then .284 in 125 games. He was a bat-off-the-bench at this point, a spot-starter. He was in his early forties by then, and still an effective hitter. In the three years he spent in Asia, a conservative guess would be that he lost 240 hits, or 80 per season. That’s muy conservative. That gets us to 620 missing hits.

Franco was an extraordinarily productive hitter into his late 40’s: he posted a 113 OPS+ in limited time in 2003, when he was forty-four. He then his .309 in 320 at-bats in 2004, which was good enough for a 111 OPS+. He was at 107 in 2005, when he was mostly forty-six years old.

Between ages 42-48, Franco posted a triple-slash line of .285/.358/.412, which was good enough for an OPS+ of exactly 100. Pete Rose, in less playing time than Franco, posted an OPS+ of just 86 at the same age. Cap Anson, again in drastically less playing time, adjusts to a 104 OPS+. Franco might be the greatest old player of all-time.

He might not be a Hall-of-Famer, but he collected 2586 with his weird batting stance. If he had stayed in America, there’s a good chance he would’ve crossed over 3000 hits, and we’d have a real debate about his candidacy. In many ways, Franco is the opposite of Omar Vizquel. Franco was a good hitter but a poor defensive player, whereas Vizquel is considered an excellent defensive player, but doesn’t compare to Franco as a hitter. Both men came close to 3000 hits and fell short...I suspect that both men will fall short of the Hall-of-Fame, too.

If I could live anyone’s baseball career, I might take Franco’s. A native of the Dominican Republic, Franco played professional baseball in six countries (Mexico, the US, Canada, Japan, and South Korea). He was, like Rickey Henderson, someone who seems mad about baseball; who wanted to play as long as he could. Franco is coaching now in the Mets organization, but I like to think that he’s off playing in some league in Mexico or Japan or Korea, staying in shape and getting his at-bats. He’s had some life in the game.

Outfielders

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
RF	Larry Walker	67.3	308	383 HR, .313 BA, 7 Gold Gloves.
CF	Kenny Lofton	64.9	287	Five-time All-Star, 4 Gold Gloves. 622 steals, 2428 hits.
RF	Andre Dawson	57.0	340	438 HR, 314 SB, 1987 MVP, HOFer
RF	Sammy Sosa	54.8	321	609 homeruns, 1667 RBI. 1998 MVP. Three 60+ HR.
CF	Bernie Williams	47.3	312	Good guitarist. Career OPS+ of 125, 287 HR.
CF	Dale Murphy	44.2	230	Two MVP's, five Gold Gloves. Nice guy.
LF	Jim Rice	41.5	282	1978 MVP, eight-time All-Star, HOFer.
CF	Steve Finley	40.4	297	304 career HR, 320 stolen bases. Career OPS+ of 104.
RF	Dave Parker	37.8	327	Nicknamed 'Cobra' 1978 NL MVP.

This is a difficult group to sort out. Walker and Dawson seem like a logical pair: right fielders who could hit and run (for a while), and who were good defensive players. Both were aided by hitter’s parks (Wrigley, Coors). Dave Parker perhaps belongs in this group: he had the same terrific arm that Walker has, and he could run a bit early in his career. Never a good base runner, though. Steve Finley fits this group, too, though he dilutes it significantly.

Kenny Lofton has no obvious pair...he belongs with Raines and Henderson; a step behind them, of course, but in their category of player. Fast. WAR gives Lofton a good bit of credit for his defense, and has him as an MVP candidate in 1993 and 1994. Win Shares has him at 25 and 21 Win Shares, respectively; good years, but not MVP seasons. Win Shares agrees that 1993 was his best season.

Sosa belongs with Rice: feared hitters, but park effects muddy the waters considerably, and neither player did much else on the field. Lots of power, but lots of small deficiencies in secondary categories.

That leaves Bernie and Dale Murphy, which seems apt. Both were good defensive centerfielders, though Murphy had the much better arm. Murphy had a bit more power, but Williams had better batting averages, and won a bunch of World Series titles.

Going with Win Shares: Dawson, Parker, Sosa, Bernie, and Walker cross the 300-barrier, while Finley (impressive) Lofton, and Rice clip the bar. Dale Murphy does poorly by Win Shares, well behind the pack.

According to WAR, Walker and Lofton are +60, while Dawson and Sosa are +50. Bernie, Murphy, Rice, and Finley are in the 40’s, while Parker takes the back. Win Shares and WAR are really divided on how to assess Dave Parker: is he a borderline Hall-of-Famer, or is he the worst on the list?

The players who have both 300+ Win Shares and 50+ WAR are Dawson, Walker, and Sosa, which isn’t too surprising. The rest are a jumble.

Relief Pitchers

Pos.	Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
RP	Lee Smith	29.7	198	478 career saves, 71-92 record, 3.03 ERA.
RP	Rbrt Hernandez	16.7	144	326 career saves. 67-71 lifetime record, 3.45 ERA.
RP	Jose Mesa	9.6	126	321 career saves, 80-109 lifetime record.

With Lee Smith, you buy it or you don’t. I was, briefly, convinced that he deserved a spot, but I’m less convinced of his case now. Of the two metrics above, Win Shares is the more generous to Smith which has him a hair behind David Wells (210 to 198), and behind Jack Morris (225). WAR shows a bigger divide: 39.3 (Morris) and 49.2 (Wells) to Smith’s 29.7

Affectionate Votes

Name	rWAR	WS	Notes
Reggie Sanders	36.7	208	305 HR, 304 stolen bases. Career OPS+ 115
Shawn Green	31.4	236	Had a four-HR game. Good player for a time.
Jeff Cirillo	28.7	169	(1996-2001): .317 with 82 HR, 553 runs, and 519 RBI.
Woody Williams	28.1	118	132-116 lifetime record, 4.19 ERA.
Rondell White	25.5	151	198 career HR.
Ryan Klesko	20.4	230	278 HR, 987 RBI. Career OPS+ of 128.
Aaron Sele	17.5	111	148-122 lifetime record, 4.61 ERA.
Jeff Conine	16.2	193	214 career HR, 1071 RBI, .285 BA
Royce Clayton	15.9	158	110 career HR, 231 stolen bases.
Mike Stanton	13.3	105	84 saves, 3,92 ERA. Became ‘Giancarlo’ last year...
S. Alomar, Jr.	11.6	115	1990 AL ROY. Brother of Roberto Alomar.
Todd Walker	8.3	122	107 career HR.

I don’t know that a case exists for any of these players, but I could be missing something. Cast your ballots for the Basement of Superlatives below....we'll announce the results in January.

* * *

*One last (late) addition to our annual election: this year we're allowing an extra space for 'write-in' candidates. Each voter can submit a vote for any player who is a) not already on the ballot, and b) not in the actually Hall-of-Fame.

The player who receives the most write-in votes will automatically be added to next year's ballot. If that player receives 75% of the vote, that player will automatically be elected to the BJOL-BOS, and the player with the next highest percentage of write-ins will be added to the ballot.

Those of you who have already submitted ballots can add your write-ins, and they will be counted.

Dave Fleming is a writer living in Wellington, New Zealand. He welcomes questions, comments and suggestions here and at dfleming1986@yahoo.com.

COMMENTS (143 Comments, most recent shown first)

jollydodger
Write in: Rose
7:00 PM Dec 28th

chuck
Biggio
Piazza
L.Walker
Schilling
Lofton
Dawson
K.Brown
Olerud
Bonds
Clemens

write-in: Lou Whitaker
12:55 AM Dec 28th

price499
I posted my 10 earlier.

Write-in nominee: Pete Rose
10:57 PM Dec 27th

DaveFleming
Just a heads-up: we'll close the voting in about 24 hours....give or take.

Heading for a record turnout!
9:47 PM Dec 27th

DaveFleming
Mattingly did not cross the 5% threshold last year....he received 4.8% of the vote. Rounding, that gets him 5%, but he didn't actually cross the threshold. So he's now elibible as a write-in candidate.
9:46 PM Dec 27th

DaveFleming
My ballot:

Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Schilling
K. Brown
Raffy
Dawson
L. Walker
Julio Franco

write-in: Dewey Evans.

(Morris over Schilling! Some twin you are...)
9:31 PM Dec 27th

BrianFleming
My Vote:

Bonds
Palmerio
Biggio
Dawson
Piazza
Sosa
McGriff
Dale Murphy
Jack Morris

and finally

Roger Clemens (for giving me my favorite baseball memory sitting in the bleachers for game 3 of the 1999 ALCS)

Write in:

Dwight Evans, simply the greatest right fielder the Red Sox have ever had. I was watching the replay a few months ago of the 1987 All Star game, in the bottom of the 8th inning, score at 0-0, Tim Raines (one of the fastest and smartest baserunners in history) got a single with one out. He then stole second and got to third on a thowing error. Juan Samuel then hits a flyball to RF where Dwight Evans catches it. Raines is 27 and has never played in the AL against Evans, but he still doesn't attempt to tag up. One HOF known for his ability to run on thrid base in the 8th inning of a 0-0 All-Star game refuses to challange the cannon of the 35 year old in right field.

That's baseball, those match ups that you don't want to miss, that's why Dwight Evans should be in the HOF.
11:58 AM Dec 27th

Detroiter
Biggio
Brown
Dawson
Morris
Piazza
Schilling

Write in

Whitaker
11:37 AM Dec 27th

Edward
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza

8:51 AM Dec 27th

gingras
My choices

1- Biggio
2- Piazza
3- Walker
4- Schilling
5- Morris

Thanks

8:40 AM Dec 27th

SteveN
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
Palmeiro
Lofton

Always liked Lofton and he played in Cleveland. He deserves a break. I probably discount Walker too much for Coors.
5:50 AM Dec 27th

jollydodger
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Palmeiro
Piazza

12:24 AM Dec 23rd

MattD1
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
1:09 PM Dec 21st

davidkunio
I love this ballot. HOF voting is going to be pretty interesting for the next few years.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Kenny Lofton
Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Bernie Williams
Dale Murphy
Jim Rice

10:14 AM Dec 21st

JimPertierra
Of course please excuse the typo, I did only vote for 5
5:17 PM Dec 19th

JimPertierra
Here is my ballot

Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza

I only voted for 9 because, frankly, those 5 meet criteria.

Best/Jim

5:15 PM Dec 19th

RangeFactor
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Fred McGriff
Bernie Williams

6:52 PM Dec 17th

pbspelly
Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Larry Walker

Rafael Palmeiro

Kevin Brown

Craig Biggio

Mike Piazza

Sammy Sosa

9:27 PM Dec 16th

gogiggs
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
Schilling
Lofton
Brown
5:08 PM Dec 16th

hdhartig

Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Curt Schilling
Kenny Lofton
Kevin Brown
Andre Dawson
Mike Piazza
David Wells
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy

Write-in: Minnie Minoso

My vote for the Hall of Saints might be slightly different.

7:28 PM Dec 14th

jimmybart
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio

Write-in: Minnie Minoso

I'll probably vote for Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa next year. I don't think the PED issue should keep them out forever, but I don't see any harm in waiting a year on them.
5:10 PM Dec 14th

Keith
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Rafael Palmeiro
Kenny Lofton
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
David Wells
9:56 PM Dec 13th

Scott_Ross
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Kenny Lofton
Larry Walker
Wrie-in: Lou Whitaker
9:31 PM Dec 13th

chrisnickell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Dale Murphy
Jack Morris

Write in: Lou Whitaker
3:56 PM Dec 13th

mvandermast
Thanks for doing this again, Dave.

Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff
John Olerud
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker

Write-In: Lou Whitaker
10:07 AM Dec 13th

jpc1957
1. Barry Bonds - led league in IBB 12 times, twice as many times as runner-up Wade Boggs. I know they didn't keep track of IBB before 1954, but if he's not THE MOST FEARED HITTER IN HISTORY, he's in the top 3, with Ruth and Williams. BEFORE the alleged use of PEDs (1986-1998) he had 289 IBB in 13 years, only 4 behind then career leader Hank Aaron, who required 23 seasons to accumulate that many. A Hall of Fame without Bonds is simply not credible.

2. Roger Clemens - led league in WAR 7 times (more than obvious inductees Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Pedro Martinez), 7 Cy Youngs, 354 wins, yada, yada, yada ... this is a no-brainer, just like in Bonds's case.

I'm MUCH less enthusiastic about:

3. Rafael Palmeiro
4. Craig Biggio
5. Mike Piazza
6. Sammy Sosa
7. Curt Schilling

but I'm voting for them anyway.

Write-in candidate:
Harry Stovey - the BOBBY BONDS-PLUS of his day. Led his league in Runs four times, 3B four times (including the NL twice, 11 years apart), HRs five times (also NL twice, 11 years apart - in fact he led in HRs and triples in the SAME season in both of those years), SB twice (and was generally recognized as the fastest player in the majors before SB became an official stat, when he was already 29 years old). Also led in Extra Base Hits five times. He held the single-season Power/Speed Number record for 32 years and the career Power/Speed Number record for 40 years, longer than anyone else in history. Played on 3 pennant winners, too, but none of them ever played in post-season games (each time for a different reason), so he never got any extra notoriety for that.

One more (long-winded) thing about Barry Bonds:

We all know that Bonds is alleged to have begun taking steroids after the 1998 season, supposedly after having become jealous of the attention McGwire and Sosa received during their pursuit of Roger Maris's single-season HR record that season.

MLB started testing for steroids (and publicizing the results) after the 2004 season had been completed.

So, let's make the reasonable assumption that everything Bonds did prior to 1999 (1986-1998) and after 2004 (2005-2007) is "legit." That would give him a total of 470 HRs, zeroing out entirely the seasons 1999-2004.

Of course, he wouldn't have hit 0 HRs in that six year span.

Let's say that in the seasons of 1999-2004 he hit HRs at the rate he did in 1998, when he was supposedly so jealous of McGwire and Sosa. He hit 37 HRs in 552 ABs that season, or 1 HR every 14.92 AB. He also walked 130 times that season (in 697 plate appearances), a rate of 1 BB every 5.36 PA.

In seasons 1999-2004, he had 945 BB in a total of 3484 PA. If he had continued to walk at the same rate as he had in 1998 (1 BB every 5.36 PA), then that would have yielded 650 BBs instead of his real total of 945. In other words, he would have had 945-650= 295 more ABs than his real total of 2477, i.e., 2477+295=2772 ABs.

So, if he hit HRs in 1999-2004 at the same rate he did in 1998 (1 HR every 14.92 AB), then he would have hit 2772/14.92=186 HRs between 1999-2004 instead of the 292 he actually did hit, a difference of 106. So, by this logic, his career total would be 106 HRs less than he ended up with, or 762-106=656, which would place him 4th on the all-time list.

Now, you can argue that he wouldn't have hit HRs at the same rate as he did in 1998, that he might have tailed off, but in the years 2005-2007 (when Bonds was already in his 40s!), he hit HRs at the rate of 1 HR every 12.69 AB. So, if instead of using his 1998 rate of 1 HR every 14.92 AB we use his 2005-2007 rate of 1 HR every 12.69 AB, we get that he would have hit 2772/12.69=218 HRs between 1999-2004 instead of the real 292 that he did hit, a difference of 74. That would give him 762-74 = 688 HRs, 3rd on the all-time list.

No matter which way you look at it - being conservative (656 HRs), "realistic" (688), or unquestioning (762) - that's a lot of HRs!

And if you want to take away his 4 MVPs from 1999-2004, you still have his 3 MVPs from 1990, 1992, and 1993, as many as anyone else in the history of baseball has ever won.

1:41 AM Dec 13th

soprismb
1. Curt Shilling
2. Fred McGriff
3. Bernie Williams
4. Craig Biggio

(I'm torn on the Biggio angle. I have a feeling in a few years when a book is written, we'll see he and Bags both were heavy into PEDs...so I'm waiting. Am I the only one that actually gives a crap that these guys with PEDs stood on a ladder and now want us to thank them for being so tall?)
10:40 PM Dec 12th

jimgus
Thanks for the forum, Dave!

One small correction... Bonds is not the all-time Runs Scored leader. Rickey is. :-)

OK, the list: Like many (all?) of the rest of you folks, I am struggling with the PED question. On the one hand, I HATE Roger Clemens. HATE. But, there is no denying that he was a great pitcher, with or without the juice. So, I suppose I'm a hypocrite if I do not vote for him.

As well, I am not enamored with Barry Bonds. As far as I am concerned, he drove Will Clark out of SF. But, there is no denying that he was a GREAT, unbelieveably GREAT ballplayer. You know, there were articles in the early '00s that talked about how he might have been getting four or five hittable pitches in a week, and he was hitting them with authority when they finally showed up. Kids, the juice don't help you do that. Maybe the body armor did, maybe the maple bats did? The point is, this darn guy was the real deal... and then it all got flushed when the "dope" came out. :-( Anyway, I suppose it would be hypocritical of me not to vote for Barry.

And, I can't even begin to discuss Sammy Sosa. How many red flags do we need for his guy to be thought of as an obvious user? Whatever, I suppose since I voted for Marky Mark (emphatically!), I would be a hypocrite if I didn't vote for Sammy.

Pamiero? I think that horse has been beaten to death. Is he better than Will Clark (a favorite comparison around here)? Many of us say, "No." His numbers say, "Yes." But his numbers are tainted! Are they? If I can generate enough oomph to vote for Eddie Murray - which I most certainly would have done, had the vote been around during his candidacy, I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to not vote for Raffy.

Well, I'm in a real pickle here, aren't I? I suppose I'll be a hypocrite and go for the following:

1. Dawson
2. Biggio
3. Schilling
4. Lofton
5. McGriff

Write-in: Joe Rudi :-). No, I really mean Lou Whitaker.

I suppose I'll vote for Barry next year, and maybe even Clemens. It's just a tough dilemma.

Cordially,
Jimgus
3:46 PM Dec 12th

monahan
1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Biggio
4. Piazza
5. Larry Walker
6. Schilling
7. Palmeiro
8. Sosa
9. Mattingly (he got 5% last year, not sure why he was left off this year)
2:29 PM Dec 12th

CWeaver
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Rafael Palmeiro
Kenny Lofton
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
David Wells
10:33 PM Dec 10th

jacdaniel
Oh, and a write in for Lou Whitaker.
6:46 PM Dec 10th

jacdaniel
Bonds-500 homers/500 steals without the clear or cream
Palmeiro-not satisfied that one time positive was indicative of his career
Biggio-3000 club
Piazza-best at position since Berra/Bench
McGriff-every player with no steroid allegations eligible for Hall who has hit 475 or more homers is in Hall.

6:44 PM Dec 10th

MWeddell
We started with the membership of the Baseball Hall of Fame as a given for this website's mock Hall of Fame as it existed immediately before the 2009 elections. After that, our paths diverged. Hence, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, who were voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2009 or later but not our Hall of Fame, are still listed as eligible.

Rice though is in danger of falling below the 5% threshold needed to stay on our ballot and/or need the end of his 15-year eligibility period.
3:05 PM Dec 9th

areuss44
If Babe Ruth is ineligible (as a write-in candidate) because he's already a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame, then why are Andre Dawson and Jim Rice on the ballot?
6:42 AM Dec 9th

cardsfan90909
I'm going to go with:
Bonds
Piazza
Walker
Dawson
Schilling
Morris
and my write in is Keith Hernandez
11:08 PM Dec 8th

Chihuahua332
Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Dawson, Lee Smith
3:43 PM Dec 7th

Brian
doncoffin-

I said "generally did not happen" -not never. And although the steroid era may have started in 1993, steroids started long before that. But the point I was making is Biggio's career, especially the power numbers & production after age 35, is right in line with those more often accused of using.

And I voted for Biggio. And Clemens, and Bonds, and Bagwell. Even Palmeiro and Sosa. And I would have voted for Ricky Henderson and Nolan Ryan, whose careers fit the same profile. And if I voted against Kirby, it would not be because of his career profile, but because he didn't do enough on the field.

For me, it is too difficult to be fair to everybody in the treatment of the steroid issue when compared with each other, let alone when they are then compared to other "cheaters." If others want to keep them out, fine. But they should be prepared to defend contradictory treatment of candidates.
9:54 AM Dec 7th

doncoffin
Brian--Kirby Puckett. 0 HRs in 583 PA at age 24 (1984); 4 in 744 PAs at age 25, 31 in 723 PA at age 26...which he sustained for the remainder of his career. Be careful when saying something *never* happened before...
8:46 AM Dec 7th

Brian
sgoldleaf,

In 1992 at the age of 26 Biggio hit 6 homeruns. In 1993, what many people consider the beginning of the "steroid era", he jumped to 21. Maybe just an age 27 career year except he kept doing it through age 40, hitting 21 that year as well. Except for the year 2000, his pre-1993 slugging is under .400 and I believe every year after that is over .400. That kind of record generally did not happen pre-steroid era. He was aligned with Bagwell and jumped forward at the same time Bagwell did. We know that whispers about Bagwell have helped keep him out of the Hall. If Biggio didn't do steroids, he remarkably made this jump forward against an increasing amount of pitchers who did. Yet you don't think he "probably did steroids?"

I hate speculating about players and I am not accusing Biggio. But it is necessary where it seems the treatment of players is not consistent.
11:19 AM Dec 6th

tkoegel
DaveFleming, like you I am troubled by where the dividing line is between steroids as a PED and (traveling backward in time) cocaine or "greenies"/amphetamines. I suspect that the impact on performance is probably higher for steroids. But who knows? And, as you say, obtaining those stimulants without a prescription was just as against the law then as obtaining steroids is now. I am genuinely curious how players/managers who take a "no cheaters" in the HOF position, as Lasorda did a day or two ago, reconcile their 'roids position against greenies/coke. I think every time a reporter gets a quote like Lasorda's, the reporter should be legally required to follow-up with: did you use greenies? your teammates? should HOF membership be revoke for those who did? I wonder what they'd say.
1:33 AM Dec 6th

DaveFleming
kcbbfan: Babe Ruth is in the real HOF, and is thus ineligible as a write-in candidate for our version. We're trying to get ahead of those guys, not catch up.

Feel free to amend your write-in.

sgoldleaf: You make a passionate stand against any 'probable steroid user'....and then you cast a write-in vote for a player who admitted to using a stimulant (cocaine) that was a) illegal to possess, and b) did significant damage to the game.

I don't know how snorting blow to get your energy up for a game is drastically different than taking a pill.
8:44 PM Dec 5th

Steven Goldleaf
Brian--I am labelling as "probable steroid user" any player whom I suspect of steroid use, based on any information I have available: an admission, a suspiciously high peak performance, the Mitchell Report, a bad case of acne, whatever. Steroids were used, it's hard to know for sure who used them, and I ain't going to honor anyone who might have. If that means some poor non-user gets his HoF plaque a few years late, or not at all, boo fucking hoo, that should be his biggest problem "I made a zagillion dollars and got to play a kids' game for a living and never have to work again and neither will my kids or grandkids, but I didn't get the plaque I deserve in Cooperstown." Cry me a river.

Steven
6:31 PM Dec 5th

Brock20
Roger Clemens
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Larry Walker
Andre Dawson
Jim Rice
Barry Bonds
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Keith Hernandez (write-in)
2:53 PM Dec 5th

kseesar1
Okay, Here's my two cents, and yes it's very biased:

Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Bernie Williams
Fred McGriff

12:57 PM Dec 5th

Brian
Those who are keeping out steroid users, just wondering what your standard of proof is....Does it have to be a positive test or admission?Or inclusion in the steroid report? In most cases, those are generally accepted but still unproven allegations. How about "fitting the profile"? Like the criminal justice system, do you want to err on the side of letting a user in rather than keeping a non-user out? Or because it is such an honor, are you erring on the other side? Lets say there is a guy who you just know in your heart played in the era but didn't use? Do they get an extra bump up because they competed against those who did use?

I admit, I took the easy way out and put them all in. And part of the reason is that the above questions make it tough to deal with this in a way that is fair to everybody.
11:36 AM Dec 5th

Steven Goldleaf
My write in vote is for Keith Hernandez. I couldnt vote for Mike Piazza because I saw him play for many years on a daily basis. he was more about him than he was about playing the game right, and I will never forgive him for putting the 'record for HRs as a catcher' above the Mets' best interest. He'll get in without my vote, and that's the way I like it. Didn't vote for any players I consider users of steroids, on the principle of "first we'll elect all the honest players, then we'll consider the dishonest ones." This is an honor, and I choose not to honor people I hold in contempt.
9:00 AM Dec 5th

kcbbfan
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Kevin Brown
Andre Dawson

Plus a write in for Babe Ruth
8:55 AM Dec 5th

Steven Goldleaf
Schilling
Biggio
8:54 AM Dec 5th

andrewhume
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
9:57 PM Dec 4th

CharlesSaeger
Barry
Rocket
Lofton
Walker
Biggio
Dawson
Palmeiro (hold my nose)
Schilling (hold my nose)
Piazza

I'll refrain from a 10th. I'd probably go with Sosa if I did.
8:12 PM Dec 4th

wjwinship
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Kevin Brown
Roger Clemens
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
5:13 PM Dec 4th

Dahlgren27
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
McGriff
Palmeiro
Schilling
Sosa
Dawson

4:02 PM Dec 4th

SkeptiSys
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmiero
Sammy Sosa
2:56 PM Dec 4th

boygajazz
Walker
Piazza
Biggio
McGriff
Write-in Keith Hernandez
If the basement someday includes ancillary wings then John Wockenfuss belongs in the Hall of Weird Batting Stances with a write-in for Stan Lopata, Reggie Sanders deserves his own wing for being the only player to charge the mound after being hit a pitch when the pitcher had a no-hitter going.
12:44 PM Dec 4th

Brian
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Andre Dawson
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker

Write-in: Lou Whitaker
11:34 AM Dec 4th

lshiman
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
10:14 AM Dec 4th

Hoskens
My vote goes as follows:

1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Craig Biggio
4. Mike Piazza

As for the steroid issue. I think we should just ignore it. Players since the dawn of the game have been using chemicals to improve their play or recover from injuries. What do you think a cortisone injection is?

I read an article once about the 1880's pitcher Pud Galvin when asked how come he could be so durable. He said each day he drank an extract of bull testicles. He was taking testosterone. The reporter thought all players on his team should start doing it.
8:51 AM Dec 4th

dburba
Clemens
Bonds
Biggio
Piazza
Dawson
Sosa
Palmeiro
Walker
4:59 PM Dec 3rd

tkoegel
Schilling
Biggio
Piazza
Dawson

Write-in: Will Clark
3:18 PM Dec 3rd

meanmike0001
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Dawson
Piazza
Rice
1:44 PM Dec 3rd

bobburpee
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Biggio
Piazza
Walker
1:36 PM Dec 3rd

rlk123
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Walker
McGriff

Thanks for doing this - fun stuff. Great article, too.
10:52 AM Dec 3rd

sdbunting
BIGGIO
BONDS
CLEMENS
D. PARKER (his nickname was Cobra. Love that)
PIAZZA

And my write-in, PETE ROSE.
10:21 AM Dec 3rd

metsfan17
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Biggio and Piazza are obvious choices. Nobody else is but I loved Bernie as a player and even though he'll never get in I would love to see it. I loved the way he worked a count and he was a very good post season performer and class act.

9:30 PM Dec 2nd

hammer2525
Biggio
Walker
Brown
7:04 PM Dec 2nd

kgh
Bonds, Clemens, Larry Walker, Biggio, Lou Whitaker
12:52 PM Dec 2nd

mikewright
my wife wants to vote. She is punishing the steroid people indefinitely.

McGriff
piazza
Biggio
Lofton
Murphy
Klesko (an emotional pick for her favorite player. Much like Bill's affection for Amos Otis.)

12:32 PM Dec 2nd

agcohen
My write in vote goes to Pete Rose. No matter his gambling, the Hall of Fame is a joke without the career hits leader.
11:27 AM Dec 2nd

chill
I was just over at Baseball Nation where Rob Neyer had an article up on the approaching boom in qualified HOF candidates, and Neyer listed who he'd vote for. And my subconscious response was "Raines? Edgar? What are you talking about - they're already in!" It took a few milliseconds to readjust to the 'real' world.

BJ HOF all the way!
7:27 AM Dec 2nd

bokonin
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Biggio, Piazza, L. Walker, K. Brown, Lofton. I like the write-in-vote-for-Lou-Whitaker idea, too.
12:50 AM Dec 2nd

casejud
First post here...

I vote for

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Curt Schilling

Rafeal Palmeiro

Crsaig Biggio

Fred McGriff

Mike Piazzq

Larry Walker

Write in vote for Lou Whitaker

7:43 PM Dec 1st

RanBricker
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
Piazza
3:20 PM Dec 1st

MWeddell
I already voted, but add a write-in vote for Lou Whitaker. I'm a Tiger fan and Whitaker has the highest WAR (per baseball-reference.com) of any eligible player who is not in the Hall and not on the ballot.

I think it's wrong for Bud Selig to not rule on Pete Rose' petition to be reinstated to baseball. Selig can rule anyway he wants, but to not rule for years at a time when the parties' consent agreement gives Rose the right to apply for reinstatement is dishonorable. However, until Rose is reinstated by baseball, I wouldn't vote for him for the Hall.

Another poster wrote about Andre Dawson. I agree that he is a borderline candidate, but he looks better based on Wins Probability Added, i.e. based on the timing of hits. Dave Studeman once wrote an article on HardballTimes.com that changed my opinion about Dawson. (Plus, I tend to be a big Hall guy.)
12:22 PM Dec 1st

mahdishain
Mahdishain

Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Finley

Write in:
Whitaker

The Finley was because he was so entertaining. My son nicknamed him The Finley Show.

Whitaker was my size and could hit the ball so far.
9:42 AM Dec 1st

nms72
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
John Olerud
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
9:00 AM Dec 1st

taosjohn
Missed the write in. Grich.
8:42 AM Dec 1st

taosjohn
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Sosa
Palmiero
Smith
Schilling
L. Walker
Dawson
8:24 AM Dec 1st

dtandy
Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa, Piazza
Biggio, L Smith, Morris, Crime Dog, L Walker
8:05 AM Dec 1st

KaiserD2
I might mention that Andre Dawson is a weaker candidate than any of the ones I discussed based upon my method. He never had one season over thirty win shares. Incredibly, in his 1987 MVP season, which is probably the reason he is now in the Hall, he had twenty (20) win shares--he had 8 seasons better than that, peaking at 29 in 1980. Bill James wrote a scathing comment about that selection, stating that Dawson in 1987 was not one of the 30 most valuable players in the National League, and that was almost certainly correct. Well, as it turns out, not quite. Based on the Wins Above Replacement chart that can be found at seamheads.com/baseballgauge/year.php?yearID=1987 , (filtered for the NL), there were 27 players more valuable than Dawson in the NL that year.
I might mention by the way that Miguel Cabrera already has three 30+ win share seasons and this past one was not his best.
7:56 AM Dec 1st

mrvino
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Mcgriff
L Walker
Biggio
Shilling
B Williams
Palmero
Dawson

1:13 AM Dec 1st

therevverend
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
12:25 AM Dec 1st

DEK1966
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Andre Dawson

Not able to bring myself to vote for the steroids guys yet. Maybe in a year or two. I guess my vote for Dawson is the Cubs fan in me...Can't quite extend it to Lee Smith, though.
9:26 PM Nov 30th

KaiserD2
Thank you for the clarification, David Fleming.

My standards for the Hall are different from man peoples'. I really like the question from the "Keltner test," "If this guy were the best player on your team, could you win the pennant?" But I go beyond this: I'm interested, more than anything else, in how many genuinely GREAT seasons a player had. I define a great season as being in the range of 30 win shares or more. A true Hall of Famer should have several such seasons, in my opinion. (You may be interested to know that Tim Raines easily passes this test.) The consequence of this is that LONGEVITY alone does not qualify people for the Hall in my opinion. It' s certainly valuable to perform at a superior level long enough to accumulate 3000 hits or 400 home runs, but that alone will not do it, for me.

The second thing I have to say is that, unlike most of the posters here, I can't vote for people who, based upon a preponderance of evidence, clearly cheated for a long period of years. Yes, Barry Bonds was already a Hall of Famer before he decided to take his body to the next level, but he made the record book a joke, and I can't vote for him, or certain other people.

Lastly, based on my criteria it has become almost impossible for pitchers to qualify. Very few of them pitch enough any more to accumulate 30 win shares in a season, and they are, therefore, less valuable than pitchers of earlier eras.

So, who would I vote for this year?

Craig Biggio played two demanding positions, had a long career, and had seasons of 30, 33 and 35 win shares, and two more in which he just missed thirty. He's my first vote.

Mike Piazza also had three seasons over 30 win shares, including one of 38, and also one of 29. He gets my vote.

In an early Baseball Abstract, Bill James predicted that Dale Murphy would go into the Hall of Fame. He won't, but Bill was right--he should. He had four consecutive seasons of over 30 win shares, which is a remarkable achievement in any era, and he gets my vote.

Kenny Lofton is a good example of good player with a long career who was never anywhere near Hall of Fame caliber; in his best year he had 27 win shares and that was the only time he was over 25. Larry Walker is a stronger candidate but he topped 30 only once. John Olerud was a huge favorite of mine and he has better credentials than either of them but he topped 30 only twice. McGriff never topped 30 win shares. So I guess I'll stick with Biggio, Piazza, and Murphy. Of the pitchers, only Clemens would qualify by my measurement and his candidacy has other problems.

Obviously most of you will disagree but I hope I've made you think.
David Kaiser

9:05 PM Nov 30th

ventboys
Write-in: Ross Barnes
8:07 PM Nov 30th

ventboys
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Curt Schilling
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Sammy Sosa
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy

7:58 PM Nov 30th

sprox
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Craig Biggio
Larry Walker
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Kenny Lofton
Rafael Palmeiro
Fred McGriff

and I'm not really a big hall guy either
7:37 PM Nov 30th

cderosa
Write in: Pete Rose

The argument to which I subscribe is: Rose definitely had to be put in time-out for a significant period, but he doesn't deserve the same life-time ban that applies to people who actually threw games.
I'd rather make a pitch for Will Clark, but... I think Rose is the best player who meets the write-in criteria Dave provided.

Thanks, Chris DeRosa
7:09 PM Nov 30th

DaveFleming
Grich added to our write-in list. Nice to see a couple of underappreciated 2B's getting some love.
4:55 PM Nov 30th

OwenH
Thanks Dave and others,

I'd like to add Bobby Grich as a write-in.
4:27 PM Nov 30th

czolgz
OOPs

Bonds
Clemens
L Walker
Dawson
K. Brown
Biggio
Lofton
Palmeiro
Piazza
McGriff
3:43 PM Nov 30th

czolgz
my group: Bonds
3:40 PM Nov 30th

77royals
Whitaker as my write-in
3:16 PM Nov 30th

77royals
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Dawson
Sosa
Smith
Walker
Palmeiro
McGriff
3:06 PM Nov 30th

lazer
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Jim Rice
1:40 PM Nov 30th

DaveFleming
Okay...Ron Mock brings up a good idea about write-in candidates Here's what I propose:

1) Every ballot has space for ONE write-in candidate, in addition to the ten spots.

2) You can list ANY player in history who is NOT in the actual HOF.

3) The player with the most write-in votes will go on next year's ballot, and

4) If (by some miracle) a write-in candidate gets 75% of the vote from all the ballots, he's automatically elected.

Those of you who have already submitted ballots can add your write-in candidates, and I'll keep track of them.
1:39 PM Nov 30th

mikewright
Bonds
McGriff
Biggio
Clemens
Dawson
Piazza
Lofton
Murphy

Lofton because I don't think Ricky and Tim should be the minimum standard for leadoff hitters. murphy to balance out the Bonds, Clemens jackass factor.

Very close to voting for Franco. While he was a wretched second baseman, my memory of him playing first in Atlanta was a graceful fielder with soft hands and great range (You know, without actually resorting to looking at numbers). Plus he swung a tree trunk that he wrapped around his head. had to be the longest path a bat travelled to get into the hitting zone. I remember him trying to take almost everything the other way, just a very smart hitter. Maybe one of the smartest I ever saw. He knew his limitations and operated supurbly inside them.
1:37 PM Nov 30th

bearbyz
Bonds
Clemons
Biggio
Piazza
Shilling
Sosa
McGriff
Walker
1:22 PM Nov 30th

Pale Hose
Bernie Williams, just cuz.
Andre Dawson
Larry Walker
Craig Biggio
1:05 PM Nov 30th

jeffsol
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
Schilling
Walker
Lofton
Palmeiro
12:45 PM Nov 30th

tavo2311
BONDS
CLEMENS
PALMEIRO
BIGGIO
DAWSON
PIAZZA
L SMITH
12:35 PM Nov 30th

Michael
BONDS
CLEMENS
PALMEIRO
BIGGIO
DAWSON
PIAZZA
12:00 PM Nov 30th

DaveFleming
To Kaiser:

Yes, we started this prior to Hawk and Rice making the HOF....so while they're in the real thing, they haven't been elected by 'our' group.

One of the ideas (in addition to giving people the chance to vote like they were BBWAA voters) is to see what our parallel Hall-of-Fame would look like.

But the real purpose, I suppose, is to reframe the discussion WE want to have.

We could just follow the real HOF....but the real HOF is still debating Tim Raines. In our group, we reached a concensus on Raines pretty quickly, and it'd seem silly to rehash that until the real HOF catches on. So let's find out who our community is uncertain about (Olerud, Brown) and have a discussion about them.
11:34 AM Nov 30th

jalbright
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Biggio
Piazza
L Walker
Dawson
Lofton
Sosa
11:31 AM Nov 30th

agcohen
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Rafael Palmeiro
Larry Walker
Sammy Sosa
Fred McGriff
Lee Smith

Did you establish a similar system to parallel the Veteran's Committee? I seem to remember something about that.
11:29 AM Nov 30th

EdgarFan
First, I'm a new BJOL subscriber, so thanks for doing this. Second, thanks to the BJOL community for already voting in five players (Raines, Trammell, McGwire, Bagwell, Martinez) that, if I had a BBWAA card and a vote for the HoF, I'd be voting for but don't have to for the BOS.

I am a moderately Big Hall, uhhh, Big Basement guy, so I'll vote for ten most years (especially through this glut of candidates) and probably some that others won't consider. Also, I have come around to the view that I won't consider suspected PED use (though I will if caught/admitted), but if a guy would have been a HOF'er before the earliest suspicions of PED use even if he'd never played another game (Bonds, Clemens), I'm not going to penalize them, and I am also more forgiving of PED use in the 1990s, when literally EVERYONE looked the other way and even celebrated the achievements of obvious giants than I am of users in later times when PED use was banned. Generally, I am looking for the 15-18 best players of the era.... Here goes:

Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Walker
Palmeiro
Biggio
Schilling
McGriff
Brown
Dawson

I really debated the last slot, strongly considering Olerud (a sentimental favorite of mine, and a criminally underrated player) and Sosa. Parker is close for me, and I'd probably consider Rice if he weren't a lesser player (IMO) than outfield mate Dewey Evans, who isn't on the ballot. Others I didn't vote for, but might consider in the future after more research/thinking:

Lofton
Bernie Williams
Morris
Wells
Mattingly
Murphy

I really debated about the last spot, considering Dawson
10:57 AM Nov 30th

rtayatay
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Palmeiro
Biggio
Piazza
Sosa

10:16 AM Nov 30th

craigjolley
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Rafael Palmeiro
Kenny Lofton
Craig Biggio
Andre Dawson
Mike Piazza
Dale Murphy

10:02 AM Nov 30th

MWeddell
rgregory,
Thanks for the explanation.
10:02 AM Nov 30th

Robinsong
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio
Lofton
Schilling
L Walker
Williams
Dawson
McGriff
I debated about McGriff/Williams and Sosa/Palmeiro.
9:17 AM Nov 30th

marbus1
Bonds
Clemens
Lofton
Biggio
Piazza
9:00 AM Nov 30th

vidro9
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Walker
Biggio
Palmeiro

9:00 AM Nov 30th

russelfe
Barry Bonds
Larry Walker
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Roger Clemens
Dave Parker
8:35 AM Nov 30th

myachimantis
@KaiderD2, since this was started a few years ago before Rice and Dawson were elected, we kind of opened a separate timeline.
8:20 AM Nov 30th

KaiserD2
Before making out my ballot I think some clarification is in order. Is there a separate BJOL Hall of Fame to whom people have been elected here? If not, why are Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, who have already been elected to the Hall, still on the ballot? Thank you.

David Kaiser
7:52 AM Nov 30th

DavidHeflin
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Brown, Biggio, Piazza, Walker, Lofton
7:34 AM Nov 30th

CWright
Oops, named Mark McGwire when I meant to write Barry Bonds. Please add my vote for BB.

6:49 AM Nov 30th

CWright
Piazza, Biggio, Palmerio, McGwire, Dawson

I have a kinder view of Palmerio than most as I believe he was telling the truth in his bewilderment over his positive test. The steroid he tested for was one of the most easy to detect, and it seems unlikely he would take such a blatant risk just months after his emphatic denial before Congress. He wondered if the steroid had come through a contaminated vitamin from the DR given him by Miguel Tejada. It was not known at that time, but it later was proven that Tejada was purchasing and likely using performance enhancing drugs.
6:45 AM Nov 30th

rgregory1956
MWeddell, as the guy who only voted for three and one of them being Brown, my rationale seems perfectly acceptable to me.
1. I don't vote for ANY first year player. It's my way of "protesting" the steroids era. Players either used or facilitated the use by their silence. I blame everyone. But it's only a one-year penalty. If Bonds, Clemens, Biggio et al aren't elected this year, I'm sure a lot of them will be on my ballot next year.
2. I don't vote for anyone who failed a drug test after 2004.
3. I tend to be a HOF exclusivist, which accounts for my low number of votes.
4. I vote for players I think are worthy of a little more thought, so I want to try and make sure they hit the 5% threshold to stay on the ballot next year.
5. Brown and Schilling look like twin brothers to me superficially. Same W/L record, same number of innings, same ERA+.
6:05 AM Nov 30th

PeteDecour
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Palmeiro
Piazza
Schilling
Lofton
4:43 AM Nov 30th

MWeddell
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Brown, Morris, Biggio, Piazza, L. Walker, Dawson, Sosa

Olerud and Lofton might have made my ballot if I had more slots. I don't vote for Palmeiro because he failed a test for steroids after MLB started trying to enforce a ban.

I don't get at all how a previous poster voted for just three players including Kevin Brown. Brown isn't really one of the three best players on the ballot and he doesn't appeal to the anti-PED rationale either.
4:42 AM Nov 30th

mikeclaw
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Palmeiro
Biggio
Piazza
Sosa

4:36 AM Nov 30th

yorobert
remember: before you go casting aspersions on any player about speculative steroid accusations-these are human beings we are talking about.
2:22 AM Nov 30th

yorobert
i'll use all ten slots:
l walker
bonds
clemens
schilling
palmeiro
lofton
biggio
piazza
sosa
dawson
2:20 AM Nov 30th

AbolishABs
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Piazza
Palmeiro
2:20 AM Nov 30th

matawith1t
Just two: Craig Biggio and Larry Walker
1:55 AM Nov 30th

myachimantis
The Top Ten

1: Barry Bonds
2: Roger Clemens
3: Curt Schilling
4: Mike Piazza
5: Kevin Brown
6: Larry Walker
7: Kenny Lofton
8: Sammy Sosa
9: Craig Biggio
10: Andre Dawson

The Next Five (I'd probably only vote for Palmeiro if I had unlimited spaces)

11: Rafael Palmeiro
12: John Olerud
13: Dale Murphy
14: Dave Parker
15: Bernie Williams
1:48 AM Nov 30th

RonMock
My ballot:

Curt Schilling
Lou Whitaker
Larry Walker
Craig Biggio
Kevin Brown

I know Whitaker isn't on the list, but his career Fangraphs WAR is greater than any of the non-PED users on the ballot except Schilling. Also greater than Trammell and Larkin and Alomar and Raines.

And what's the point of opening the Filenes basement of the HOF if we can't right wrongs and put Lou Whitaker into it?

1:08 AM Nov 30th

price499
My ten votes. Thank you for facilitating.

Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Dave Parker
Mike Piazza
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
10:43 PM Nov 29th

shthar
Any baseball cards printed from 1982 on are worthless.

Their only value will be to a speculator.
10:35 PM Nov 29th

DaveFleming
Just another recollection about Julio Franco: his baseball cards make up a significant percentage of my card collection. Like 3%.

When we were kids, my brother and I tried to scout players who a) had cheap cards, and b) had the chance to eventually 'become' great players.

This was a huge success with Nolan Ryan...we started buying up Ryan cards like crazy in about 1988-89, which is when he moved to the Rangers and became super-famous. We rode the crest of that wave.

We did this for other, lesser players. My card collection has an unusually high number of Glenn Davis cards, and quite a few Dave Smith cards. I don't know why we collected Texas players so often, as we lived on Cape Cod.

We went all in on Franco, whom we both really liked. He was a second baseman who won a batting title! He was Ryne Sandberg, except his cards were 5 cents a pop!

This panned out exactly as you'd expect: I don't think any baseball cards made between 1987-1992 ever returned an investment...maybe that Billy Ripken Fleer card. It was a terrible time to be a card collector: the market was flooded with cards, and everyone wanted in. The saving grace is that my baseball card collection is utterly worthless, so I don't have to worry about a flood coming along and ruining my retirement nest egg.

9:23 PM Nov 29th

chill
Dave,

You're on fire. I laughed out loud, then later snickered, chortled, and choked. That first half...you were on.

Bonds
Clemens
Palmiero
Walker
Piazza
Biggio
Olerud
8:42 PM Nov 29th

rgregory1956
Just three for me this year: Kevin Brown, Fred McGriff and Lee Smith
8:31 PM Nov 29th

cderosa
1. Barry Bonds
2. Craig Biggio
3. Roger Clemens
4. Mike Piazza
5. Dave Parker
6. Rafael Palmeiro
7. Sammy Sosa
8. Dale Murphy
9. Bernie Williams
10. Fred McGriff

Thanks for running the vote,
--Chris DeRosa
8:25 PM Nov 29th

doncoffin
I also missed Todd Walker's name n the list. My vote, also, is just for Lary Walker.
8:24 PM Nov 29th

doncoffin
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Walker, Biggio, Piazza. I couldn't find enough to vote for 10.
8:23 PM Nov 29th

OwenH
Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Piazza, Palmeiro, Walker, Schilling, Brown.
8:18 PM Nov 29th

DaveFleming
'Going by recent history of this poll, even just three will be a banner year.'

We had four in 2009...Henderson, Raines, Trammell, and Blyleven. This ballot is substantially more impressive than that one...I'd put Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Schilling, and Piazza all ahead of Alan Trammell. I might put (hold-overs) like Walker, Dawson, Raffy, Brown, McGriff, and Sosa ahead of Trammell, too.

It's a stacked ballot: that could dilute concensus, but there are some great players entering the conversation.

I bet no one joins Rickey as our lone unanimous representative....I'm sure we'll see some 'neys' on Bonds/Clemens.
8:16 PM Nov 29th

DaveFleming
I'm going to count all votes for 'Walker' twice...I think it's only fair to Todd.
8:09 PM Nov 29th

peterunger
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio

Agree with just previous poster, but will wait on Piazza. I like catchers who can play their position well. For starters, anyhow would rather platoon the incredibly versatile Biggio with somebody than have Piazza behind the plate.

Going by recent history of this poll, even just three will be a banner year.
7:50 PM Nov 29th

bjjp2
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Biggio

I distinguish Sosa from Bonds and Clemens because I don't think Sosa would have been a HOF'er without the 'roids whereas Bonds and Clemens would have.
6:46 PM Nov 29th

contrarian
Probably obvious, but that's LARRY Walker on my ballot, not Todd.
6:40 PM Nov 29th

contrarian
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
Walker
Palmeiro
Lofton
Brown
Biggio
Dawson
Piazza
6:36 PM Nov 29th

Jack
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
McGriff
Palmeiro
Piazza
Schilling
Sosa
Walker

- Jack
6:32 PM Nov 29th

2013 BJOL HOF Ballot

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