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The Golden Cabinet

July 21, 2010

            Like a woman who is always re-arranging the furniture or re-arranging her cabinets, I am forever re-organizing baseball history in my mind.   Recently it occurred to me that one could “organize” Hall of Fame candidates in this way.

            Let me say up front that this is a reader-participation series.   I am posting this idea as a way to organize an argument.  In the absence of an argument, it is an empty shell.   I am counting on you to hit that button at the bottom of the page, and tell us what you think about the candidates in each group. . . .where you would place them within the structure that is suggested here.  And I am counting on you to respond to the arguments made by the other readers who do post.

            OK, a player who is actually IN the Hall of Fame has one of three codes:  QL, Q1, or L1.  The Code “QL” indicates that his career has both the quality and the length that we would normally associate with a Hall of Famer.   Stan Musial is QL, and Mays, and Ted Williams, Aaron, Walter Johnson, Spahn, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Babe Ruth. . ..players who had both long careers and several years of such quality that the player would have been selected to the Hall of Fame even if he had been seriously injured at age 32.

            The Code “Q1” indicates that the player was selected to the Hall of Fame based on the Quality of his performance, even though he may not have had the number of Quality Seasons that we would like a Hall of Famer to have.   Roy Campanella is Q1, and Mickey Cochrane, Sandy Koufax, Dizzy Dean, Addie Joss, Phil Rizzuto, Bobby Doerr, and Chick Hafey.   We’re not here to argue about whether a player should be in the Hall of Fame or not; if he’s in, he’s in.   He is coded either as Hall of Famer based on very high quality of performance in a short career, or based on the standard of excellence and consistency in a long career.   Early Wynn is perhaps the ultimate L1 Hall of Famer, but Tony Perez is L1, and Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield and Sam Rice.

            Hall of Fame candidates—those not in the Hall of Fame—could be sorted in this way.   We’ll start with those who are eligible, but have not been selected.

            If an eligible player is of the same caliber as the Q1 players at his position—that is, if his selection would not drag down the average quality of the Q1 players at his position at all—then the appropriate code for him is Q2.  

            I am trying to avoid talking about specific players here, because I wanted to make this about your opinions, rather than mine, but the most obvious example of a Q2 player might be Dick Allen.   Tony Oliva might be Q2, but perhaps that’s more debatable, and, again, I didn’t want to cut off anybody else’s opinion there.

            If the player’s career was

            a) more brilliant than that of at least two members of the Q1 group at his position, and

            b) of such quality that one more MVP-candidate type season would have made him a no-questions asked Hall of Famer,

            then the player should be coded Q3.

            David Cone might be Q3; not saying that he is, but Cone’s career was probably better than at least two right-handed starting pitchers who have been selected, and he did win a Cy Young Award.   I would have to think that if you added another Cy Young-quality season onto the top of that, the pile would have to topple over into the Hall of Fame area.  Oliva is Q3 if he isn’t Q2.

            If the player was

            a) a better-qualified Hall of Famer than at least two players who are in (at any position), and

            b) more Q than L,

            then the player should be coded Q4.

            Dick Groat might be an example of a Q4 Hall of Fame candidate, or Pete Runnels.   I’m showing my age, aren’t I?   Howard Johnson.   Eric Davis.

            If the player was clearly not a Hall of Famer, but did perform at a Hall of Fame level for a period of 4 to 6 years, that would be Q5.  Elston Howard might be an example of a Q5 player (although Sparky Lyle did argue, in The Bronx Zoo, for Howard to be elected.)

            If the player was clearly not a Hall of Famer, but did perform at a Hall of Fame level for 2 to 3 years, that would be Q6.   Ken Caminiti might be Q6.

            If the player was more Q than L, but never performed at a Hall of Fame level, then that would be Q7.

 

            You could probably fill in the “L” codes as well as I could.

            If an eligible player is of the same caliber as the L1 players at his position, and his selection would not drag down the average quality of the L1 players at his position at all, then the appropriate code for him is L2.   The most obvious example of an L2 player is probably Bert Blyleven.   Others might be Rusty Staub and Vada Pinson.

            If his career was

            a) longer than that of at least two members of the L1 group at his position and of equal quality, and

            b) of such quality that one (more) MVP-candidate type season, within the games that he actually played, would have made him a no-questions asked Hall of Famer,

            then the player should be coded L3.  

            If the player was

            a) a better-qualified Hall of Famer than at least two players who are in (at any position), and

            b) more L than Q,

            then the player should be coded L4.

            If the player was clearly not a Hall of Famer, but did perform at a high level for a period of 2200 games or more (or less if a catcher), then the player should be coded L5.

            If the player was clearly not a Hall of Famer, but did perform at a high level for 1700 games or more (less for a catcher), that would be L6.

            If the player was more L than Q, but played less than 1700 games, then that would be L7. 

 

            And I would suggest that, for a catcher, you could divide his games by about .70.    1540 games for a catcher would equal 2200 for a position player, and 1200 would equal 1700.

 

            I’ve dealt so far only with eligible Hall of Fame candidates, not with ineligible players or players not yet eligible.   For active players and ineligible players, the codes are the same except for three things.

 

            1)  Ineligible players may be coded “QL”.   Eligible players who have not been selected for the Hall cannot be coded QL, regardless of what we might think about them; it’s just not an available code for them.   But Ken Griffey is a QL, and Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux.

 

            2)  Ineligible players should be coded with an “x” on the end to indicate that they are not yet eligible.    Derek Jeter, for example, would be QLx, and Ichiro would probably be Q1x.   Griffey, Clemens and Maddux are QLx.

 

            3)  Eligible players who have not been selected cannot be coded “Q1” or “L1”, because marking them with such a code is really a way of making an argument for them, rather than placing them where they belong in the classification scheme.    We are regarding it as illogical to say that a player is an obvious Hall of Famer, but merely hasn’t been selected.    It may be true, but there’s an implicit contradiction that we’re going to skate around.

            However, active and recently retired (and ineligible) players may be coded Q1x or L1x, because there is no implicit contradiction in so doing.

            Why are we doing this?

            Because it may help us to think more clearly about Hall of Fame candidates.   It may help us to “see” things that we haven’t seen before, or it may prove to be a useful way to explain our conclusions to somebody who doesn’t get it and thinks Jack Clark is a Hall of Famer.  This is a way of asking, about each player, “Where does he fit, in an array of Hall of Fame candidates?”

 

 

Catchers

 

            Again, not trying to pre-empt your options, but I would have to think that Yogi Berra was the only catcher who would be coded QL.   Possibly Bench; I’ll leave that up to you.  Other Catchers in the Hall of Fame include:

 

            Johnny Bench

            Roger Bresnahan

            Gary Carter

            Roy Campanella  (Obvious Q1)

            Mickey Cochrane (Obvious Q1)

            Bill Dickey

            Buck Ewing

            Rick Ferrell      (Obvious L1)

            Carlton Fisk

            Gabby Hartnett

            King Kelly        (Obvious Q1)

            Ernie Lombardi

            Ray Schalk (Obvious L1)

 

            King Kelly only caught a few hundred games and played more games at other positions, but is most famous as a catcher, and I decided to list him there because he illustrates the idea of a Q1 better than anyone else except Campanella.

 

            Other Hall of Fame candidates among catchers include but are not limited to:

            Charlie Bennett

            Bob Boone

            Del Crandall

            Walker Cooper

            Spud Davis

            Bill Freehan

            Tom Haller

            Elston Howard

            Jason Kendall

            Johnny Kling

            Sherm Lollar

            Javier Lopez

            Tim McCarver

            Thurman Munson

            Chief Meyers

            Lance Parrish

            Tony Pena

            Mike Piazza

            Jorge Posada

            Ivan Rodriguez

            Wally Schang

            Ted Simmons

            Jim Sundberg

            Gene Tenace?

            Joe Torre

            Jason Varitek

 

            I will leave you to debate these names for a couple of days, and I beg you to participate in that debate.   I will read what you have to say and, in a couple of days, offer my own opinions, and then we’ll move on to the first basemen, OK?

            But first, there was one thing I wanted to say.   Delmar Wesley Crandall was one hell of a player.   Nobody talks about him anymore, and maybe he wasn’t a Hall of Famer.  Maybe he’s an L4 or an L6 or a Q3; I don’t know.

            But he was a tremendous player.    Look at the positives:

 

            1)  A durable catcher, leading the National League in games caught five times,

            2)  Provided true Gold Glove quality defense, year in and year out,

            3)  Hit as high (as a regular) as .297 and .294,

            4)  Hit 15 to 26 homers eight straight years,

5)  Threw out almost 50% of opposing base stealers, and

            6)  Was the starting catcher on two National League pennant winners.  

 

            And he compiled the hitting stats he did despite playing almost his entire career in pitcher’s parks.   His career average was 17 points higher on the road than in his home parks, and he hit 23 more homers on the road than in his home park.

 

 
 

COMMENTS (31 Comments, most recent shown first)

Paul
Answering my own question from more than three years ago, I'm pretty sure this has been dropped.
8:58 PM Dec 31st
 
Paul
So I take it this project has been dropped?
10:21 PM Oct 30th
 
meandean
I'm gonna do this without extensive research, hoping that that is more helpful than not doing at all. If that's not the case, lemme know...

Johnny Bench - QL
Roger Bresnahan - Q1
Gary Carter - Q1
Bill Dickey - Q1
Buck Ewing - Q1
Carlton Fisk - L1
Gabby Hartnett - L1
Ernie Lombardi - Q1

[I'm a Met fan and don't want to put down Carter's tenure here. (Certainly, we've learned post-Piazza that a halfway decent catcher is hard to find!) Nonetheless, it seems clear to me that -- although Carter's post-Montreal years were no doubt essential to putting up the counting stats that are realistically required for HOF induction -- he didn't have all that many "Hall of Fame accomplishments" during that period.]

Charlie Bennett - Q3
Bob Boone - L5
Del Crandall - Q4
Walker Cooper - Q4
Spud Davis - Q6
Bill Freehan - Q2
Tom Haller - Q7
Elston Howard - Q3
Jason Kendall - Q6x
Johnny Kling - Q5
Sherm Lollar - L6
Javier Lopez - Q4
Tim McCarver - L5
Thurman Munson - Q3
Chief Meyers - Q6
Lance Parrish - L6
Tony Pena - L5
Mike Piazza - QLx
Jorge Posada - Q3x
Ivan Rodriguez - L1x
Wally Schang - Q4
Ted Simmons - L2
Jim Sundberg - L5
Gene Tenace? - Q4
Joe Torre - Q2
Jason Varitek - L6x

[Kendall is a funny case -- amassing as many awful post-"peak" plate appearances as he has is quite a feat! -- but I figure that, if I were to consider him as a HOF candidate at all, it'd have to be on the basis of the period when he was actually good.]

[It strikes me that, given Bill's definition -- if there are two guys worse than you in the HOF, you're at least a 4 -- we (including myself) are probably giving too many grades of higher than 4. How many of these guys are seriously worse than, say, Lloyd Waner and Fred Lindstrom? And forget about if you were to include non-playing-merit selections like Candy Cummings or Tom Yawkey. Anyway.]
9:35 PM Jul 31st
 
slemieux99
I definitely agree with Martin about Carter being a Q1 rather than an R1. Not only did he have a very high peak -- definitely the best catcher in baseball for 6 or 7 years -- but he was basically done at 33. He might have put enough time at catcher to qualify for both career and peak performance, but the latter was more impressive.

One interesting comparison is between Varitek and Kendall. The former instinctively seems like a much more serious candidate, but if Kendall's peak is only marginally lower if that, and he's had a similar year-to-year value over significantly more games.

6:12 PM Jul 29th
 
Brian
A very good start, with a couple of quibbles: I don't know that the descriptions necessarily match the player examples. Bill Freehan to me is much closer to David Cone than to Howard Johnson or Eric Davis. One more MVP season has a good chance of putting Freehan into the HOF, but not "no-questions asked", so his description doesn't seem to fit as a Q3.
Also, I think the Q5 standards are tougher than the Q4 standards. There are enough undeserving Hall of Famers that it would be easier to be better than just 2 of them than it is to put together 4-6 Hall of Fame seasons.
4:50 PM Jul 28th
 
sptaylor70
Actually reading and following directions this time:

Sandy Alomar, Jr. – L7 Remarkably long career for a catcher of his caliber.
Brad Ausmus – L5
Darren Daulton – Q4
Rich Gedman – Q7
Joe Girardi – L7
Jason Kendall – L4x
Javy Lopez – Q5
Charles Johnson – L7
Lance Parrish – L5
Mike Piazza – QLx
Darrell Porter – L4
Jorge Posada – Q3x
Ivan Rodriguez – QLx
Benito Santiago – L4
Mike Scioscia – Q5
Terry Steinbach – L5
Jim Sundberg – L4
Mickey Tettleton – L4 As an overall player. Catching career was relatively short.
Jason Varitek – Q4x
Greg Zaun – L7 Remarkably long career for a catcher of his caliber.
1:24 PM Jul 27th
 
Robinsong
To follow up on my earlier post: I missed Lollar who should have been an L4. Bill did not mention several candidates. The most surprising omission was Darrell Porter, who ranks as an L3, though admittedly his career length is marginal. Tettleton and Daulton are marginal Q4. Scoscia is a little short on both L and Q. The biggest surprise for me was Kendall: 2000 games caught and peak and total WAR above Lombardi's. I had never thought of him as a candidate.
10:09 AM Jul 27th
 
contrarian
I don't think too many Red Sox fans will be annoyed by Posada ranking higher than Varitek. Posada is clearly the better player, and even the most biased Sox fans I know concede that pretty readily. What gets Sox fans annoyed is when Yankee fans try to argue that Munson was the equivalent of (or better than...) Fisk.
8:57 AM Jul 27th
 
jc44
Fun stuff. I understand the general lack of endurance for catchers, but I'm having a little trouble giving Bench a QL when he stopped having HOF-caliber seasons north of 30 years old. He and Fisk were born 19 days apart, yet their last games as catchers came almost ten years apart. I suppose Fisk was a freak of longevity and Bench started his reign of domination very young (2 MVPs, 5 GGs by age 25). But if Fisk is an L1, maybe Johnny's QL should at least be lowercased?

Even Dickey was a top-20 MVP candidate through age 36. Maybe the "prime" ages is what's throwing me off.
6:44 PM Jul 26th
 
Robinsong
I like the approach a lot. Bench, Berra, Carter, Dickey, and Fisk are all QL. Carter, Bench, and Fisk all have longer careers than Berra and higher WAR for their top 3 seasons and career. Bench and Carter are also higher on top 5 consecutive. Dickey is slightly lower on peak, but similar to Cochrane and had a shorter season. Hartnett is clearly the best of the L1, which also include Schalk, Lombardi and Ferrell. Cochrane, Campy, Bresnahan, Ewing, and Kelly are Q1. The average WAR for the QL/Q1 is 19.3 for top 3 (6.4/season) and 26.4 for best 5 consecutive. The L1/QL requires at least 1750 games and 1500 games caught and the average career WAR is 50.6.
Piazza and IRod are QLx. Simmons is L2 - average WAR and above minimum career length. Torre, Freehan, Posada, Munson, Howard, and Tenace are all Q3 - better than several Q1/QL on top 3 and best 5 consecutive, but below Q1/QL average. Torre is clearly a Hall of Famer - Q3 as a catcher and QLx as a manager. Kendall, Sundberg, and Parrish are L3 and Pena, McCarver and Boones are L4. Surprisingly few clear omissions (Simmons and Torre), particularly when the Ferrell/Schalk mistakes are excluded.
5:28 PM Jul 26th
 
jc44
Fun stuff. I understand the general lack of endurance for catchers, but I'm having a little trouble giving Bench a QL when he stopped having HOF-caliber seasons north of 30 years old. He and Fisk were born 19 days apart, yet their last games as catchers came almost ten years apart. I suppose Fisk was a freak of longevity and Bench started his reign of domination very young (2 MVPs, 5 GGs by age 25). But if Fisk is an L1, maybe Johnny's QL should at least be lowercased?

Even Dickey was a top-20 MVP candidate through age 36. Maybe the "prime" ages is what's throwing me off.
5:10 PM Jul 26th
 
sptaylor70
Buddy Bell - L3
Bobby Bonds - Q3
Bobby Bonilla - Q4 or Q5
Will Clark - Q3
Julio Franco - L4 or L5
Stan Hack - Q2
Mark Grace - L4 or L5
Kenny Lofton - L5 or L6
Dave Parker - Q2
Benito Santiago - L5
Jim Sundberg - Q4
Alan Trammell - Q2
Matt Williams - L3 or Q3
11:59 AM Jul 26th
 
slideric
Nice piece. Damn spent the last few days mulling this over and realized how tough the selection procedure was. A few things I mulled over. Our evaluation tools today are much better defined. Folks keep rewriting history so it appears to have changed. The population of players is much more diverse and better. As to the Q's, L's et.al. I suspect the more qualifications and categories we select the more difficult it becomes. Damn there are a lot of good catchers.
9:15 AM Jul 25th
 
taosjohn
I think it may be unfortunate to start with catchers, as it is way the hardest position to organize thoughts around.

And it also takes more work than I can do tonight, so for the moment I'm just tossing a few observations in...

In support of Martin's post (or at least I think it is) I wanted to point out that Gary Carter's last TWO seasons, with the Dodgers and Expos it was announced at his signing that he was being brought in a a third string catcher for his veteran presence and experience etc etc-- we've all read that cliche a few times. IIRC in both cases the team found itself unexpectedly in contention the last five or six weeks, and guess who played nearly every day as they tried to pull it out... That impressed me a lot at the time, anyway, that that happened two years in a row.

If neither Piazza or I-Rod is fully qualified in both Q and L, what are we expecting of catchers? On the one hand you have the biggest bat ever at the position, who called good games even if he couldn't throw anybody out and was the sweep tag king. On the other, the best backstop I ever saw, who has an MVP, a ton of gold gloves, some grey ink, and a bunch of .300 seasons. One of those should surely qualify, if not both?

Ray Schalk is in the HOF primarily for being honest in 1919, isn't he? I mean there are worse players in, but that is the reason he is in and Shang is not isn't it? On the numbers I'm not sure how you can get much of anyone between them on any list. Bill pointed that out years ago, but I don't see that anything has changed there... (BTW Schang had 513 PA in 1921.)

I think Bill Dickey has something of a case as QL. Long career (for a catcher), major contributor with the bat throughout, well regarded defensively, rings; what's missing?

And the other reason to avoid starting with catchers is, whattya do with Torre? L as a player, Q as a catcher, maybe barely not quite enough player to get in, maybe belongs as a manager, maybe maybe maybe. By the end of this process it MAYBE easier to see where to place him than it is out of the gate...

3:04 AM Jul 25th
 
wovenstrap
Also, I would say much the same thing about Gary Carter, but maybe he's a Q2 or something, not as high as Ivan. Back in the day, Bill would do his player analyses, and every year Carter finished first. I don't know about you, but that made an impression on me. Never won an MVP, but his claim to fame is that he was the best catcher in MLB for nearly a decade, not that he stuck around a long time.

Although it's possible I'm misunderstanding how these work, slightly. Anyway, Carter's distinction is the high level of play, not the amount. That's what I'm trying to say.
8:59 PM Jul 23rd
 
wovenstrap
I'm not knowledgeable enough to do a full analysis, but I will say that classifying Pudge as "merely" an L is absurd. The guy won an MVP and finished in the top 10 in the voting four times. We may think that his value was inflated by the voters and Arlington and all that, but he's just not a compiler in my opinion. Plus he was widely recognized as a key member of a championship team, which for example Piazza can't say.
8:17 PM Jul 23rd
 
rbfletch
I hit a snag, or submitted by accident, or something. here is the rest of my comments.

Charlie Bennett Q7, but who knows what to do with19th century players, especially catchers. The man could hit (career OPS+ 118, for example) and catching was a rough business in those days. He did play other positions when younger, but only catcher later, suggesting defensive value.
Bob Boone L5, he could be L4 (Better than Bancroft and Hooper, and more L than Q) but if I HAD to choose one of Hooper, Bancroft or Boone I would probably shrug and choose Hooper.
Del Crandall L4, he meets both L (1500 games caught) and Q (8 AS games, MVP votes in 7 elections) standards, but he was just not quite in the league of Ferrell or Schalk, Carter or Kelly, but better than Hooper or Bancroft. You didn’t have gradations of QL (like QL4).
Walker Cooper L3, perhaps not an OBVIOUS HOF with one additional MVP season but he already finished second once, and put together some fine seasons. Add another 130 games caught, an MVP and another good offensive season, and I think he might well be selected.
Spud Davis L5
Bill Freehan L3
Tom Haller Q4, can’t make him better than Carter or Kelly – he played in a tough era, and was consistently better than league, but never quite in the elite hitter category, and his career is not that long (1199 games caught)
Elston Howard Q4, could be only Q5, as you suggest, but if I had to choose one between Bancroft, Hooper and Howard, I think I would choose Howard. Close, though.
Jason Kendall L5, he has almost 2000 games at catcher, so the L is pretty obvious. A good hitter in his early years, he hasn’t hit at league average since he was 30, eons ago.
Johnny Kling Q7
Sherm Lollar L5
Javier Lopez L6, I guess. He had a couple of big seasons with the bat, and was never that much with the glove, so you could try Q6 instead (or QL6?)
Tim McCarver L6
Thurman Munson Q3, could almost be Q2. I think one move MVP-type season and he is in – of course that may be giving credit for getting himself killed, and for being the Yankee captain. And I didn’t discount the fact that Sparky Lyle said “he’s not moody, he’s just mean”. Heck of a player – an excellent catcher and a fine hitter, though he probably didn’t have all that much in the tank when his plane went down, so his career, artificially short, might well have been short anyway.
Chief Meyers Q6, three great seasons, but he got a late start (age 28).
Lance Parrish Q2 and L2, he is better and played longer than the lowest catchers in both categories, in my opinion. Of course, he was not very good in the decline years, though good enough to keep getting a job. And we now have indicators that he wasn’t good defensively, but I like him as well as Schalk, Carter et. al. If I can only have one, I guess his 1900 games caught make him an L2, plus he stacks up better there, as the L list players are not as good overall as the Q list players.
Tony Pena L4, I like him as well as Schalk or Ferrell, but one more MVP type season does NOT put him in the Hall.
Mike Piazza QLx though he caught a lot of games, too. He should be in.
Jorge Posada QLx, he has already caught over 1500 games, and when a top-flight team uses its catcher at DH to keep his bat in the lineup, you know he can hit. Posada is no longer a quality catcher, though, but he certainly was for many years. He should be in.
Ivan Rodriguez L1x, he should go in on the basis of a long career as the best catcher in the game, with a solid if unspectacular bat.
Wally Schang L4, really the same career as Schalk, but one additional season at MVP level doesn’t put him in, in my opinion.
Ted Simmons Q3, though really QL3, as he played a lot (1780 games as catcher) and hit pretty well to boot. Another MVP level season might get him in, depending on the whim of the voters.
Jim Sundberg L5
Gene Tenace Q7, sad really, as in many ways he was better than many players in the Hall, including Schalk and Ferrell. But he didn’t play long enough (<900 games caught) to be an L, and his quality numbers are ones we only now are beginning to recognize. He had NO HOF type seasons, got votes for MVP only twice (18th both times), played on ONE all-star team, and yet the man could produce runs, just in the sabermetric way: he walked and hit home runs. I think his career OPS+ (admittedly in a short career) is second on this list to Piazza.
Joe Torre Q3, maybe Q2. He could hit, and another MVP level season probably puts him in (he will go anyway, as a player/manager) but he really wasn’t much of a catcher, and caught only about 900 games.
Jason Varitek L6, Sox fans will scream, as they consider him the equivalent of Posada, if not better. I can’t see it: he is not the hitter Posada is, hasn’t caught as many games, and wasn’t the catcher that Jorge was at their respective peaks, and he is bad now, too.


6:02 PM Jul 23rd
 
rgregory1956
Hey Bill, first off let me say I spent way too much time thinking about this!!! But it was a fun little mental exercise. What I've done is take from your BJHA2 the top 50 catchers as you ranked them and gave them the appropiate (to me) code.
1. Yogi Berra QL
2. Johnny Bench QL
3. Roy Campanella Q1
4. Mickey Cochrane Q1
5. Mike Piazza Q2
6. Carlton Fisk L1
7. Bill Dickey L1
8. Gary Carter L1
9. Gabby Hartnett L1
10. Ted Simmons L2
11. Joe Torre L2
12. Bill Freehan Q2
13. Ivan Rodriguez L2
14. Thurman Munson Q3
15. Elsoton Howard Q3
16. roger Bresnahan Q1
17. Buck Ewing Q1
18. Darrell Porter L4
19. Lance Parrish L4
20. Wally Schang L2
21. Bob Boone L5
22. Ernie Lombardi L1
23. Gene Tenace Q4
24. Tim McCarver L4
25. Darren Daulton Q5
26. Tom Haller Q5
27. John Roseboro Q5
28. Smoky Burgess L6
29. Rick Ferrell L1
30. Del Crandall Q5
31. Sherman Lollar L5
32. Jim Sundberg L5
33. Walker Cooper Q4
34. Tony Pena Q5
35. Ray Schalk L1
36. Mike Scoscia Q5
37. Mickey Tettleton Q6
38. Terry Steinbach L6
39. Ed Bailey Q6
40. Deqacon McGuire L5
41. Al Lopez L6
42. Manny Sanguillen Q5
43. Rick Dempsey L6
44. Jim Hegan Q6
45. Duke Farrell L6
46. Bob O'Farrell Q6
47. Johnny Bassler Q6
48. Johnny Kling Q4
49. Charlie Bennett Q4
50. Earl Battey Q5

I decided not to categorized any current player, other than IRod. Posada, Varitek and Mauer are all Qs to me at the moment; let me see how their careers work out.

You said you wanted some debate, so here goes! One additional name I'll bring up, just because, well, I'm contrarian sometimes. Jim "Deacon" White should be listed as a catcher, not as a third baseman. He spent 8 additional years as a catcher, 1868-1875. He was considered the premier catcher of his time, so I'd label him an L2. I think he's a very close comp to Joe Torre, a little more offense, a little less defense away from the plate, probably better defensively behind the dish.

Hope this is what you're looking for.
4:21 PM Jul 23rd
 
smbakeresq
Well, this system is certainly reasonable, at the very least it provokes the thought of how players should be ranked to each other. This is important since the players are defeined by how they relate to each other.

This of course would be require thought and reasoning, instead of "I saw him play, I know he was great."
4:07 PM Jul 23rd
 
tigerlily
Roger Bresnahan & Al Lopez are also in the HOF as catchers. My classification of the HOFer's is;

QL - Y. Berra, J. Bench
Q1 - M. Cochrane, R. Campanella, B. Dickey, B. Ewing, K. Kelly, G. Carter & R. Bresnahan
L1 - R. Ferrell, C. Fisk, G. Hartnett, E. Lombardi, R. Schalk & A. Lopez

I added D. Daulton, L. Parrish & D. Porter to the list of HOF candidates. My classifications for these candidates is as follows:

QLx - M. Piazza
Q2 - T. Simmons, J. Torre, B. Freehan
Q3 - None
Q4 - E. Howard, D. Daulton
Q5 - D. Porter
Q6 - J. Kling, T. Munson, J. Lopez & G. Tenace
Q7 - C. Bennett, T. Hallet, C. Meyers
L2 - None
L3 = L. Parrish
L4 - T. McCarver
L5 - B. Boone, D. Crandall, S. Lollar, T. Pena. W. Schang & J. Sundberg
L6 - W. Cooper
L7 - S. Davis

I classify the active catchers as follows;

J. Mauer - Q2x
J. Posada - Q2x
I. Rodriguez - L2x
J. Kendall - L5x
J. Varitek - L5x

It was tougher to classify these players than I'd anticipated. I think it has to do with the catcher position. Very few catchers play at or near a HOF level for any length of time and most have off-seasons or missed playing time on a regular basis. I doubt that I'm confident in 60% of these classifications.
2:30 AM Jul 23rd
 
tbell
For career quality with an emphasis on peak performance, I like Win Shares minus Loss Shares, with 100 representing a standard of excellence (for whatever reason that may be needed).

For career quality with an emphasis on length, I like total Win Shares, with 300 representing a standard of excellence (ditto).

William of Occam admires them too, I'm sure.

Mr. Sulla, there's a difference between writing about baseball, and writing about systems of organizing opinions.

Like Trailbzr, I'm more interested in the first.

And we can be confident that the author will not suffer from knowledge of our preference, for the very reason you suggest.
1:50 AM Jul 23rd
 
CharlesSaeger
Negro League performance is also going to boost Campanella. He's not primarily a short career guy for his injury; he wasn't worth much when he went down anyways.
10:33 PM Jul 22nd
 
MikeChary
In terms of eligible people not being QL, how about people who are not elected for reasons other than performance, like Pete Rose? And where do negro leaguers fit in? Because Josh Gibson played, what, 16 years?
8:37 PM Jul 22nd
 
meanmike0001
Ted Simmons really should be a QL, in my opinion. But I know he can't receive that rating because he is not HOF. Q2 is more appropriate than L2. His performance would grant him a few more points than the length of career (although that was impressive). He hit .300 7 times (.285 career) and in an era with several 80 to 100 stolen base guys he routinely threw out 40% of would-be thieves.
5:16 PM Jul 22nd
 
meanmike0001
Ted Simmons really should be a QL, in my opinion. But I know he can't receive that rating because he is not HOF. Q2 is more appropriate than L2. His performance would grant him a few more points than the length of career (although that was impressive). He hit .300 7 times (.285 career) and in an era with several 80 to 100 stolen base guys he routinely threw out 40% of would-be thieves.
5:01 PM Jul 22nd
 
bjames
Hey, Trails, if Bill paid any attention whatsoever to people like you, the field of sabermetrics wouldn't exist. I'm older than Bill. Until Bill came along, you couldn't get published about this stuff, because all the people like you had decided it wasn't interesting. James said, "OK; you're not interested. That's fine. I'll write to whoever IS interested. If it's ten people, it's ten people." It turned out that his instincts about what people were interested in were a lot better than the smart guys like you who wanted to tell him what he should be writing about.
1:32 PM Jul 22nd
 
bjames
Matthew, if Schalk is L, perhaps Schang has to be L as well, inasmuch as the two have the same # of AB (5306) in the same era. Schang better than Schalk; Schalk got in because of his Glove Rep.
1:24 PM Jul 22nd
 
enamee
Trailbzr, I didn't see this as a Hall of Fame evaluation system, but rather as a way of organizing individual players in the context of baseball history. The Hall of Fame is a nice, concrete starting point, but obviously most of the players being classified aren't real HOF candidates.
1:00 PM Jul 22nd
 
enamee
Okay, I've gone through your whole list. Here are the others that I haven't already covered:

Bennett Q5
Boone L5
Crandall Q4
Cooper Q6
Davis Q6
Freehan Q4
Haller Q7
Howard Q5 (or perhaps Q4)
Kling Q7
Lollar L5
McCarver L5
Munson Q4
Meyers Q6
Parrish L4
Pena L5
Schang L4 (or Q4)
Simmons L2
Sundberg L5
Tenace Q3 (or Q2)
Torre L2 (or Q2)

Schang is a tough one. On the one hand, he had a lot of L (1842 games over 19 years), but on the other hand, he had only 6423 plate appearances. He had 11 seasons with an OPS+ between 120 and 140, but he never had as many as 500 plate appearances in a given season. He's obviously better than some of the L1 catchers (Ferrell and Schalk), and his best years don't stack up well against the Q1 catchers, so I'm inclined to classify him as more L than Q. I think there's a Hall of Fame case to be made for him, although it's a bit thin.
12:58 PM Jul 22nd
 
Trailbzr
Bill, do you want to maybe use the Polls section to see what subscribers are interested in reading about? I know more HOF evaluation systems is far down MY list.

12:29 PM Jul 22nd
 
enamee
Well, I'll pick off some of the low-hanging fruit. The Hall of Famers:

QL: Bench

Q1: Bresnahan, Dickey, Ewing, Lombardi

L1: Carter, Fisk, Hartnett

There's a fine line between Dickey and Hartnett. Hartnett had a longer career, but only by a couple hundred plate appearances. Dickey has just a 10 point edge in OPS. The biggest difference is that Dickey's best years make up a larger proportion of his career value than Hartnett's do, which is why I classified Dickey as Q1 and Hartnett as L1. But they're very close.

Active or recently retired players:

Piazza Q1x
Posada Q3x (perhaps Q2x, but I'm trying to be conservative)
I-Rod L1x
Varitek Q7
J. Lopez Q6 (arguably Q5)
Kendall L5
12:19 PM Jul 22nd
 
 
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