Remember me

The Brooks Robinson Tournament--Baltimore Smackdown

September 18, 2010

Jimmy Collins 104, Charlie Hayes 69

 

September 19, 2010

 

            Hall of Fame third baseman Jimmy Collins shrugged off a 15-point deficit from the power category to roll to a 35-point trouncing of 1990s glove man Charlie Hayes. 

 

 

Collins

Hayes

Power

7

22

Speed

10

2

Hitting For Average

19

9

Plate Discipline

8

14

Career Length

15

7

Defense

18

9

Awards

20

2

Team Success

7

4

Total

104

69

 

            Collins, a fifth seed, will face the fourth-seeded Matt Williams on September 24.

            Charlie Hayes, 1988-2001, was originally drafted as a pitcher.   He was always perceived as a player with a world of ability and in particular a world of ability in the field, but for reasons that were never clear to the public, whoever it was that had him never seemed to want to keep him.   Hayes was a very good third baseman and had a season, in 1993, that looks much like Brooks’ Robinson’s season in 1962 or 1964, 1964 being his MVP season.   But 1993 (21-11) is really the only good year that Hayes ever had.  He now operates a baseball academy near his home in Tomball, Texas.

I remember Tomball when it was a small town, or anyway, I thought it was a small town.   One time about 1983 I woke up in Tomball, flew from Houston to Dallas and then flew home.  When I got home I turned on the TV new, and the two lead stories were 1)  that a tornado had hit Tomball, Texas, and 2)  that there had been a hostage-taking incident that had shut down the Dallas airport, apparently just after I left there.   Man, that was a spooky feeling; I shook my fist at God and sang, “Missed me, missed me, now you gotta kiss me.”   For some reason, on Hayes’ web site there is a photo that shows him batting left-handed; go figure.

 

Charlie Hayes—Wins and Losses Contributed

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1988

SF

23

0

0

.091

.091

.091

.182

0

1

0

0

0

1

.000

0

1989

SF

24

0

0

.200

.200

.200

.400

0

0

0

0

0

0

.290

0

1989

Phi

24

8

43

.258

.395

.281

.676

5

8

2

2

7

10

.407

5

1990

Phi

25

10

57

.258

.348

.293

.641

9

16

5

2

14

17

.447

12

1991

Phi

26

12

53

.230

.363

.257

.620

5

15

4

2

9

17

.359

6

1992

NY A

27

18

66

.257

.409

.297

.705

9

13

3

4

13

17

.427

10

1993

Cin

28

25

98

.305

.522

.355

.876

16

9

5

2

21

11

.656

25

1994

Cin

29

10

50

.288

.433

.348

.780

9

8

3

1

13

10

.564

14

1995

Phi

30

11

85

.276

.406

.340

.746

9

14

4

2

13

16

.454

12

1996

Pit

31

10

62

.248

.368

.301

.669

6

14

3

2

9

16

.372

6

1996

NY A

31

2

13

.284

.418

.294

.712

1

2

1

0

2

2

.475

2

1997

NY A

32

11

53

.258

.397

.332

.728

7

9

2

3

9

11

.436

7

1998

SF

33

12

62

.286

.419

.351

.770

8

5

1

2

10

7

.578

11

1999

SF

34

6

48

.205

.314

.292

.607

3

9

0

2

4

11

.248

0

2000

Mil

35

9

46

.251

.370

.348

.718

7

9

2

2

8

11

.426

7

2001

Hou

36

0

4

.200

.240

.293

.533

0

2

0

0

1

2

.184

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

144

740

.262

.398

.316

.714

96

133

35

26

131

159

.452

117

 

 

Travis Fryman 97, Frank Malzone 75

 

            Travis Fryman won four categories by wide margins to coast to a surprisingly easy 97-75 victory over Boston Red Sox legend Frank Malzone.    Fryman will meet Sal Bando in Cleveland on September 24.

 

 

 

Fryman

Malzone

Power

18

9

Speed

9

2

Hitting For Average

13

16

Plate Discipline

16

4

Career Length

13

9

Defense

10

20

Awards

9

13

Team Success

9

2

Total

97

75

 

 

            I know that many people were picking Frank Malzone to win this one, but Malzone benefits in reputation from four illusions.  First, he played in the best hitters’ park in baseball in his time, and had a career average of .296 in his career at home, .252 on the road. 

            Second, RBI.   Malzone batted a huge number of times with runners in scoring position, for reasons that I don’t fully understand.   He led the American League in at bats with runners in scoring position in 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1960, was second in that category in 1961, third in 1962.   At the time, literally no one would have known this, including Malzone and including the people who ran the league’s statistical information services; therefore, there was always a perception that he was a great clutch hitter, because he was always driving in more than his share of runs.

            Third, on base percentage.   At the time, very few people had any grasp of the importance of on base percentage, which was not an official stat, and was not a stat that was published anywhere on a regular basis, and there was almost no awareness of batter’s walks.   Baseball fans of Malzone’s era really were not even aware that Malzone rarely walked, as walk numbers were basically uncirculated except in a few exceptional cases.

            And fourth, there is a difference in how many of us perceive players from different generations.   Frank Malzone, to people of my age, was a universally respected player, someone who towered above us as we learned to love the game, like Minnie Minoso or Luis Aparicio or Rocky Colavito or Gus Bell or Curt Flood.   It is very difficult to force ourselves to judge those players by the same rational standards that we apply to players who are younger than us and who we saw come to the majors and struggle to find their place.   It is easy for us to say that Marquis Grissom or Joe Carter wasn’t that good because what drives an offense is on-base percentage; it is harder to make the same point about someone who was a giant when I was small.   On some level, we are arguing with our old schoolmasters.

            Still, based on the evidence, Travis Fryman was pretty clearly better than Malzone.   Malzone was a Gold Glove fielder and a contributing offensive player, and I might give him a break on a comparison because his career was artificially shortened on the front end by some things that were beyond his control, but the gap between him and Fryman is just too large to suggest that he was a better player than Travis Fryman.

 

 

Frank Malzone—Wins and Losses Contributed

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1955

Bos

25

0

1

.350

.400

.381

.781

0

0

0

0

1

0

.908

1

1956

Bos

26

2

11

.165

.272

.230

.502

0

5

1

1

1

6

.160

0

1957

Bos

27

15

103

.292

.427

.323

.751

13

13

7

2

20

15

.560

22

1958

Bos

28

15

87

.295

.421

.333

.754

13

13

6

3

19

16

.545

21

1959

Bos

29

19

92

.280

.437

.323

.760

13

13

6

2

18

16

.538

19

1960

Bos

30

14

79

.271

.398

.313

.711

10

16

5

3

15

19

.432

12

1961

Bos

31

14

87

.266

.386

.314

.700

10

16

4

3

13

19

.408

10

1962

Bos

32

21

95

.283

.426

.319

.745

12

14

5

2

17

16

.515

17

1963

Bos

33

15

71

.291

.419

.327

.746

12

13

5

2

17

15

.531

18

1964

Bos

34

13

56

.264

.372

.312

.685

11

12

3

3

14

15

.479

13

1965

Bos

35

3

34

.239

.319

.293

.612

4

13

2

2

6

15

.273

1

1966

Cal

36

2

12

.206

.277

.253

.530

1

6

0

1

2

7

.203

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

133

728

.274

.399

.315

.714

98

135

44

24

142

159

.471

133

 

 

 

Freddy Go Home

Cooperstown Wants You; We Don’t

 

            Harry Steinfeldt, as you learned Trivia 101, was the third baseman on the Tinkers to Evers to Chance infield, the only player in that infield who isn’t in the Hall of Fame.   On Sunday morning, Steinfeldt got a small measure of revenge by defeating one of Valhalla’s own, New York Giants third baseman Freddy Lindstrom, 83-82 in overtime.

            Whupped badly in terms of power and hitting for average, Steinfeldt fell into a 45-17 hole after three events, but rallied on Plate Discipline, Career Length, Defense and Team Success.

 

 

 

Steinfeldt

Lindstrom

Power

2

23

Speed

6

5

Hitting For Average

9

17

Plate Discipline

19

3

Career Length

13

9

Defense

21

6

Awards

6

15

Team Success

7

4

Total

83

82

 

 

            Steinfeldt in the second round will meet the winner of Wednesday’s contest between Chipper Jones and Don Hoak; good luck with that, Harry.   I hear Chipper’s got some game.

            Fred Lindstrom was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1976, and I have been roundly denouncing his selection since 1976.   I have been wrong about many, many things in that time; many players I have had to admit were better than I thought they were, some I have had to admit were not as good.

            I have yet to see anything that begins to suggest that I was ever wrong about Freddy Lindstrom.   Lindstrom had the highest career batting average of any player in this tournament, .311, and he did have enough power to drive in 107 runs in 1928, 106 in 1930.   He had 231 hits in each of those seasons.

            But, of course, more runs per game were scored in that era even than in the steroid era; the National League ERA in 1930 was 4.97.   In the steroid era it peaked at 4.63.   Lindstrom rarely walked (his career high in walks was 40, and he usually walked about 30 times a season), and his power was limited.   His speed was nothing special.

            Lindstrom coached in the minors and at Northwestern University (1951-1954), and he still has many friends in baseball.   Don Zminda was telling me at the SABR convention that Freddy Lindstrom was his first boss.   Don, who now heads the office that creates a very large percentage of the stats you see on major league telecasts, used to be a mailman.   Lindstrom was the Postmaster in Evanston, Illinois, a political job that involved ceremonial duties.   Evanston, incidentally, is where the Baseball Digest was published for many years; maybe still is, I don’t know.

            Lindstrom was a very good player in 1928, yes, but you’re talking about a player who was a legitimately good player for 7 years at most, and not much more than a .500 player in several of those, and nowhere near the MVP level in any season other than 1928.   It’s like putting Aramis Ramirez or Kevin Seitzer in the Hall of Fame.

            Lindstrom’s friends will tell you that he was an outstanding defensive third baseman, but there is a complete lack of evidence that this is true.   Although he did play more games at third base than at any other position, he was moved off of third base at the age of 25, and never went back except for a week here and there.   It is my opinion, as it has been since 1976, that Lindstrom’s selection to the Hall of Fame was a disgrace, that not only was he not a legitimate Hall of Famer, but that in fact he was nowhere near the most minimal standard of Hall of Fame performance.

 

 

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1924

NY G

18

0

4

.253

.316

.314

.630

1

2

1

1

2

3

.388

1

1925

NY G

19

4

33

.287

.430

.332

.761

7

9

3

3

10

12

.468

9

1926

NY G

20

9

76

.302

.420

.351

.771

13

11

6

4

19

15

.559

21

1927

NY G

21

7

58

.306

.436

.354

.790

14

10

5

4

19

14

.572

21

1928

NY G

22

14

107

.358

.511

.383

.894

19

6

8

2

27

8

.780

37

1929

NY G

23

15

91

.319

.464

.354

.819

12

11

5

4

16

15

.527

17

1930

NY G

24

22

106

.379

.575

.425

.999

19

4

4

4

24

8

.750

31

1931

NY G

25

5

36

.300

.429

.356

.785

8

4

3

2

11

6

.641

14

1932

NY G

26

15

92

.271

.407

.303

.710

11

14

3

7

14

21

.394

10

1933

Pitt

27

5

55

.310

.448

.350

.798

17

6

4

6

21

12

.640

26

1934

Pitt

28

4

49

.290

.405

.333

.738

7

9

2

4

9

13

.419

7

1935

Cubs

29

3

62

.275

.389

.297

.686

5

10

3

3

8

12

.406

6

1936

Bkn

30

0

10

.264

.302

.297

.599

1

4

1

1

2

5

.261

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

103

779

.311

.449

.351

.800

134

98

48

44

182

142

.561

202

 

 

 

Mike Lowell 75, Hubie Brooks 58

 

            Is a 9 beating an 8 really an upset?  Ninth seeded Mike Lowell wore down Hubie Brooks with a combination of power, defense, and plate discipline, and rolled to a relatively easy first-round victory.

 

 

 

Lowell

Brooks

Power

13

8

Speed

1

9

Hitting For Average

11

10

Plate Discipline

12

4

Career Length

7

11

Defense

17

3

Awards

9

9

Team Success

5

4

Total

75

58

 

            Buddy Bell, the top seed in the Los Angeles regional, will meet Tom Brookens tomorrow, and Lowell will face the winner of that game on September 25.

            Three of the players eliminated today have unusually similar career batting stats; for that matter, Lindstrom’s aren’t too much different, either, except for the era in which he played, when batting averages were very high.   But Charlie Hayes, Frank Malzone and Hubie Brooks all hit between 133 and 149 homers, drove in between 740 and 824 runs, and hit between .262 and .274.   Their career OPS were .714, .714, and .717.    Their career on-base percentages all fall within a one-point range (.315 to .316), while their slugging percentages are five points top to bottom, .398 to .403.  

            Hubie ranks a little bit better than the other two guys, as a hitter, because the offensive context in which he competed was one of fewer runs.   Both Malzone and Hayes, however, were outstanding fielders.   Hubie was not; Hubie’s defensive value was mostly in his versatility, that you could put him anywhere on the field and he wouldn’t embarrass you.   Hubie was a very positive teammate, and a role player that organizations were happy to have available to them. 

 

Hubie Brooks—Wins and Losses

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1980

Mets

23

1

10

.309

.395

.364

.759

2

1

1

0

3

1

.676

4

1981

Mets

24

4

38

.307

.411

.345

.756

9

6

3

3

12

8

.593

14

1982

Mets

25

2

40

.249

.317

.297

.614

7

13

2

4

9

18

.333

4

1983

Mets

26

5

58

.251

.321

.284

.604

8

18

5

3

13

21

.374

8

1984

Mets

27

16

73

.283

.417

.341

.758

14

10

4

3

18

14

.564

20

1985

Mon

28

13

100

.269

.413

.310

.723

13

13

3

6

16

19

.446

14

1986

Mon

29

14

58

.340

.569

.388

.956

11

1

2

2

13

3

.832

18

1987

Mon

30

14

72

.263

.426

.301

.726

7

11

2

3

10

14

.408

8

1988

Mon

31

20

90

.279

.447

.318

.766

13

11

5

3

18

14

.564

20

1989

Mon

32

14

70

.268

.404

.317

.721

11

13

3

3

14

16

.474

14

1990

LA

33

20

91

.266

.424

.307

.732

12

13

3

4

15

17

.478

15

1991

Mets

34

16

50

.238

.409

.324

.733

8

8

2

3

10

11

.491

10

1992

Cal

35

8

36

.216

.337

.247

.583

2

12

0

2

3

14

.164

0

1993

KC

36

1

24

.286

.375

.331

.706

3

4

1

0

4

4

.476

4

1994

KC

37

1

14

.230

.311

.239

.550

0

3

0

0

0

3

.138

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

149

824

.269

.403

.315

.717

121

136

37

41

158

177

.471

148

 

            In tomorrow’s contests, sixth-seeded Harlond Clift will take on Doug Rader in Baltimore, 7-seed Willie Jones will battle Bill Bradley in Cleveland, 8-seeded Pinky Whitney will face 9-seed Edgardo Alfonzo in St. Louis, and #1 seed Buddy Bell will take the floor against Tom Brookens in Los Angeles. 

            On Tuesday it will be Billy Nash against Joe Randa, Clete Boyer against Ken Keltner, Gary Gaetti against Bill Melton, and Tim Wallach against Bob Aspromonte.

            Troy Glaus remains the best player eliminated from the tournament at this point.   This is how the 22 players eliminated from the tournament so far would rate, compared to one another:

 

Rank

First

Last

Seed

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

W Pct.

Value

1

Troy

Glaus

11

144

93

33

28

176

122

.592

204

2

Freddy

Lindstrom

10

134

98

48

44

182

142

.561

202

3

Kevin

Seitzer

10

137

86

35

29

172

115

.601

201

4

Howard

Johnson

12

140

77

27

40

167

117

.588

192

5

Aramis

Ramirez

11

138

101

30

28

168

129

.565

187

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6

Larry

Parrish

5

149

145

34

48

184

193

.487

179

7

Ray

Boone

13

119

77

33

30

153

108

.587

175

8

Melvin

Mora

13

125

100

29

24

154

124

.553

169

9

Vinny

Castilla

5

120

176

48

26

168

202

.453

150

10

Hubie

Brooks

8

121

136

37

41

158

177

.471

148

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11

Frank

Malzone

11

98

135

44

24

142

159

.471

133

12

Ray

Knight

14

100

111

34

32

134

143

.484

129

13

Brook

Jacoby

14

97

98

30

30

127

128

.498

127

14

David

Bell

13

88

125

37

17

126

143

.469

117

15

Charlie

Hayes

12

96

133

35

26

131

159

.452

117

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

16

Dean

Palmer

13

109

106

16

37

125

142

.468

117

17

Steve

Buechele

16

83

107

36

19

118

126

.484

115

18

Jim

Davenport

15

86

111

35

26

121

136

.471

114

19

Tony

Batista

15

85

115

30

18

115

133

.465

107

20

Luis

Salazar

Pl in

75

103

28

26

103

130

.442

89

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21

Ed

Sprague

Pl in

75

106

22

23

96

129

.427

80

22

Ken

Reitz

14

70

138

39

32

110

171

.392

79

 
 

COMMENTS (8 Comments, most recent shown first)

Poincare
Aramis Ramirez is clearly a BETTER player than Freddy Lindstrom was. That may not have been absolutely clear in 2010, but it certainly is now in 2016.
1:58 AM Feb 11th
 
MarisFan61
to JDW: I think defense at *all* positions warrants more value and that it should take away mainly from the value of pitching. I explained the basis a while ago elsewhere on the site, either in a "Hey Bill" or a Reader Post.

My main rationale is something that I think we would all agree is important but which nobody has ever thought of taking into account in these things (metrics or otherwise): Good defense SAVES PITCHING, bad defense expends it. I don't just mean how it holds down "hits" and decreases E.R.A. and helps a pitcher get more wins; I mean how it allows pitchers to face fewer batters and throw fewer pitches per inning and have more innings, and which (presumably) reduces the "stress" on them, and which it would seem DEFINITELY makes it easier to manage the pitching staff and maybe even allows the team to carry an extra position player or two because they might not need so many pitchers.

You get the idea. :-)

How important is that? We don't know, but intuitively I think it's very important, and in any event it counts for SOMETHING -- but it's nowhere in these metrics. I also think there are other 'intangibles' and semi-tangibles that argue for more value for defense, but that's the main one that I can express in a concrete way.

When I mentioned it before (a year or two ago), Bill replied that he found it interesting but didn't know if it would be possible to create a metric for it. I replied that I didn't expect there would be, but that we should perhaps just recognize that this is something that tells us "mentally" to somehow put more value on defense than the metrics tell us.

I admit that I have a more fundamental reason about this defense thing, which is that just intuitively I 'feel' that it's more important -- which I know isn't a reason. The main basis for this is that being a Yankee fan, I focus a lot on post-season, and while I realize this will sound bumpkin-ish, all I can say is that you don't seem to win those most-important games and series without solid defense, far more importantly than would seem to be dictated by our metrics.
10:12 AM Sep 23rd
 
jdw
Why would you think defense at 3B would warrant more value? Has anyone who has done a statistical analysis of value put significantly more weight on 3B Defense relative to 3B Offense than Bill has? Take HoJo: 23.6% of his total WS+LS comes from his defense. It's 22.3% for Seitzer. Is there any reason to think that defense made up more than 1/5th to 1/4th of their positive/negative "value"?

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12:16 AM Sep 21st
 
MarisFan61
Per JDW: >>".....about defense being weighted more, look at the chart at the bottom of the article. Defense is small component of most players overall value (BWS/BLS and FWS/FLS)."<<

Right.
What I was saying was that it is being made too-small a component.
2:04 PM Sep 20th
 
jdw
On MarisFan's comment about defense being weighted more, look at the chart at the bottom of the article. Defense is small component of most players overall value (BWS/BLS and FWS/FLS).

On Steinfeldt/Lindstrom career length:

G: 1647 vs 1438
PA: 6691 vs 6104

It's not massive, but Steinfeldt has a year or so advantage.

I suspect what we'll see when Steinfeldt goes out in the next round to Chipper is:

* his defense will lap Lindstrom both in terms of overall FWS but also FWS-FLS%

Lindstrom is barely break even. Looking at the old DWS for each, it was 63.6 vs 46.8 for Steinfeldt. His W/L came in the context of the best W/L team of all-time. If we've followed what Bill has written about his fellow infield partners in several articles here, their defense has come out extremely well in Bill's FWS/FWL analysis.

Steinfeldt's best years are going to crunch better than Lindstrom's, and he's likely to have a comfortable edge over Lindstrom's 182-142 especially the .561 W%. Steinfeldt topped him in total WS in the old method. Will likely again.

It will be interesting to see how some of the folks bounced in the 2nd round match up with the better ones bounced in the 1st. Meaning: did Glaus just have bad luck of the "draw" where he could have knocked off some that are advancing if he had just drawn them instead of who he pulled.
7:36 PM Sep 19th
 
cderosa
I know the whole rap on Lindstrom, but I didn't think Steinfeldt had all that many good seasons either...

My other losses have been from picking more recent players over old timers who reached base more often. I think I've been overcompensating against my OBP indoctrination.
10:36 AM Sep 19th
 
MarisFan61
.....and let me add that although my comments have been mostly "critical," that's just me. :-)
This tournament idea is great, and extremely interesting.

About the "points": Unless I've missed something, Bill hasn't fully explained the system. At first I thought "early," "late," and "overtime" were about the chronology of the players' careers, but I've gathered that they aren't at all. It seems that Bill set up a system where the starting point is that the total scores should show the range of usual NCAA basketball scores, then he apportioned the categories according to their judged importance. I hope he'll eventually explain the whole system.
12:56 AM Sep 19th
 
MarisFan61
Malzone's severe whoopping from Fryman underlines something I've been feeling in several of these matches: Defense seems not to be weighted as much as some of us might wish for Third Base.
12:40 AM Sep 19th
 
 
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