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The Last First Round of the Brooks Robinson Tournament

September 21, 2010

DeCinces 61, Cirillo 59 (OT)

 

September 22, 2010

 

            On a day featuring one-sided contests in the other three games, Doug DeCinces and Jeff Cirillo went toe-to-toe and exchanged blows in a match requiring overtime to get to a decision.    DeCinces, who had home run totals of 28, 30, 20, 20 and 26, had a 14-6 edge in the “Power” category over Cirillo, who never hit more than 17 homers in a season.   Cirillo, who hit .325, .321, .326, .326 and .313 in various seasons, had a 14-5 edge over DeCinces in the “Hitting for Average” category, as DeCinces hit higher than .286 only once (.301 in 1982).   Otherwise, the two players were nearly even in every area except Team Success, where DeCinces had a 6-2 edge.

 

 

DeCinces

Cirillo

Power

14

6

Speed

3

4

Hitting For Average

5

14

Plate Discipline

8

8

Career Length

9

7

Defense

9

10

Awards

7

8

Team Success

6

2

Total

61

59

 

            DeCinces, the #8 seed in the Baltimore regional, will face off against Brooks Robinson on September 26.

            Cirillo is a recent player, and I may not need to say much about him.  One of countless star players to come out of the USC program, Cirillo hit .342 at USC, and apparently was as good a pitcher as he was a hitter, although I am unable to find his college pitching statistics.  An 11th-round draft pick in 1991, Cirillo made the majors in three years, driving Kevin Seitzer across the infield.   In the first half of his career, he was a tremendous player.   He hit .325 with 46 doubles, 15 homers for the Brewers in 1998, and .326 with 53 doubles, 11 homers and 115 RBI for the Rockies in 2001.   In addition to that he was a very good third baseman—actually the second-best defensive player who has been eliminated from the tournament so far, behind only Clete Boyer--and he walked 79 times in 1998, 75 times in 1999, giving him on-base percentages over .400 both of those seasons.  His won-lost contributions from 1997 through 1999 were 20-11, 22-9, and 20-10.

            His career stumbled to a surprisingly quick end when he was traded to the Mariners in 2002, and just suddenly stopped hitting.   He was 32 years old at that time, and there was an expectation for two or three years that he would snap back and have a couple of good years yet, but he never did, although he did hit .319 as a part-time player for Milwaukee in 2006.  Cirillo played almost a thousand games for the Brewers (978), and his career average with the Brewers, .306, is the franchise record.

 

Jeff Cirillo—Won and Lost Contributions

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1994

Mil

24

3

12

.238

.381

.309

.690

2

4

1

1

2

5

.319

1

1995

Mil

25

9

39

.277

.442

.371

.813

7

7

3

1

11

7

.589

12

1996

Mil

26

15

83

.325

.504

.391

.894

15

8

2

4

17

12

.591

20

1997

Mil

27

10

82

.288

.426

.367

.793

14

10

6

0

20

11

.659

25

1998

Mil

28

14

68

.321

.445

.402

.847

17

8

5

1

22

9

.706

28

1999

Mil

29

15

88

.326

.461

.401

.862

17

8

4

2

20

10

.681

26

2000

Col

30

11

115

.326

.477

.392

.869

11

13

4

1

15

15

.515

16

2001

Col

31

17

83

.313

.473

.364

.838

11

11

5

0

16

11

.591

18

2002

Sea

32

6

54

.249

.328

.301

.629

7

15

4

2

11

17

.396

8

2003

Sea

33

2

23

.205

.271

.284

.555

2

10

2

1

5

11

.290

1

2004

SD

34

1

7

.213

.293

.259

.553

1

3

0

1

1

3

.232

0

2005

Mil

35

4

23

.281

.427

.373

.800

5

3

1

1

6

4

.574

7

2006

Mil

36

3

23

.319

.414

.369

.784

6

5

1

1

7

6

.563

8

2007

Min

37

2

21

.261

.386

.327

.713

3

5

1

1

3

5

.380

2

2007

Ariz

37

0

6

.200

.300

.273

.573

0

1

0

0

1

2

.346

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

112

727

.296

.430

.366

.796

119

111

39

17

158

127

.554

173

 

 

 

 

Graig Nettles 76, Phil Nevin 50

 

            Graig Nettles, trailing 42-25 at halftime, won the second half by the rather remarkable score of 51 to 8 to advance into the second round of the Brooks Robinson invitational tournament.   Nettles (1) will face Ken Keltner (9) on September 26.

 

 

 

Nettles

Nevin

Power

9

12

Speed

6

2

Hitting For Average

2

20

Plate Discipline

8

8

Career Length

14

1

Defense

19

1

Awards

11

5

Team Success

7

1

Total

76

50

 

            Nevin was a premier power hitter, hitting .303 with 31 homers, 107 RBI in 2000, .306 with 41 and 126 in 2001, and .289 with 26 homers, 105 RBI in 2004.    The .300 averages gave him a big advantage in that area over Nettles, whose career average was just .248.

            Nevin had only four good years, and his defensive ability was limited.    But he was one of the better power hitters to have been eliminated in the first round of the tournament.

 

 

Phil Nevin—Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1995

Hou

24

0

1

.117

.133

.221

.354

0

3

0

1

0

4

.000

0

1995

Det

24

2

12

.219

.333

.318

.652

1

3

0

1

1

4

.249

0

1996

Det

25

8

19

.292

.533

.338

.872

3

2

0

1

3

2

.610

4

1997

Det

26

9

35

.235

.414

.306

.720

4

7

1

1

5

8

.383

4

1998

Cal

27

8

27

.228

.371

.291

.662

3

7

1

1

5

9

.348

3

1999

SD

28

24

85

.269

.527

.352

.880

11

6

3

1

14

6

.686

18

2000

SD

29

31

107

.303

.543

.374

.916

17

5

2

4

18

9

.670

23

2001

SD

30

41

126

.306

.588

.388

.976

21

2

3

3

23

4

.842

33

2002

SD

31

12

57

.285

.413

.344

.757

10

7

1

4

11

10

.514

11

2003

SD

32

13

46

.279

.487

.339

.825

6

4

1

1

7

5

.575

8

2004

SD

33

26

105

.289

.492

.368

.859

17

6

2

4

19

10

.646

23

2005

SD

34

9

47

.256

.399

.301

.699

6

6

1

2

7

8

.480

7

2005

Tex

34

3

8

.182

.323

.250

.573

0

4

0

1

1

5

.100

0

2006

Tex

35

9

31

.216

.415

.307

.722

4

5

0

1

4

6

.384

3

2006

Cubs

35

12

33

.274

.497

.335

.832

5

2

1

1

6

3

.652

7

2006

Minn

35

1

4

.190

.286

.340

.626

1

1

0

0

1

1

.410

1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

208

743

.270

.472

.343

.815

109

70

15

26

124

95

.566

139

 

 

 

Chipper 101, Tiger 74

 

            Winning every category except Speed and Defense, Chipper Jones rolled to an easy 27-point win over the emotional leader of the 1960 Pirates, Don Hoak.  Chipper’s next opponent will be Harry Steinfeldt, on September 26.

 

 

Jones

Hoak

Power

20

8

Speed

5

7

Hitting For Average

18

10

Plate Discipline

12

10

Career Length

19

3

Defense

5

24

Awards

15

7

Team Success

7

5

Total

101

74

 

            The 1960 Pirates, to me, are an endlessly fascinating team.  Dick Groat was actually the captain of that team, not Don Hoak, but a lot of people thought of it the other way.   Hoak and Groat—similar names, playing beside one another at shortstop and third—were first and second in the MVP voting; in a way they were almost like Fox and Aparicio, who had been first and second in the MVP voting in the other league the previous year, the co-leaders of an emotional, aggressive team that stole a championship from organizations with vastly more talent.   While Don Hoak was in the Marines, Dick Groat was at Duke University; while Hoak was boxing, Groat was playing in the NBA; while Hoak was slogging his way to the majors through the impenetrable jungle of the Dodger farm system, the Pirates were putting Groat immediately in the majors, skipping the minors entirely, and offering him the use of a private airplane to keep him from jumping permanently to basketball.

            Groat had had a lot of advantages that Hoak didn’t, had gotten to the Pirates seven years earlier even though he was three years younger, and yet on some level they were very much the same, both tough, competitive bastards, both raised in small towns near Pittsburgh, both, I would guess, from the families of coal miners.  Hoak—nicknamed “Tiger”--was famous as a hothead who had been known to go to the mound and ream out the pitcher; Groat was cold and sometimes sour, but just as intense.   They weren’t co-captains and they weren’t rivals, but. . .they were.    Groat was out of the lineup with an injury from September 6 until September 27, 1960.   Somewhere in there, Hoak after a game pulled off a blood-soaked sock.   Like Schilling in 2004, he had been stitched up after a previous game.  The stitches had broken and the sock filled up with blood, but Hoak just went on with the game.   He played every game, that year and the year before.

            Don Hoak never hit .300 (in the majors or in the minors), never hit 20 homers, never stole ten bases and never drove in 90 runs—and yet he was, for five years, a very, very good player.    He didn’t hit 20 homers but he hit 19, and 16, and 12, and he didn’t hit .300, but he was close, and he didn’t steal bases, but he ran well, and he didn’t walk a hundred times a year but he walked 71 to 74 times every year.   If Groat had moved to third and Hoak to short, one suspects that it would have made little difference.  Hoak was faster than Groat, and he was quicker than Groat. 

Hoak reached the majors after a year in the marines, a brief and spectacularly unsuccessful career as a boxer, and seven long years in the Dodger minor leagues.   Hoak’s home run totals in the minor leagues read 5, 5, 5, 6, 5, 6, 6.  His glove work finally got him to the majors, and his first three years in the majors sort of extended the streak: 7 home runs, 5, 5.   He had now been in pro baseball for ten years, and had hit 5 to 7 homers every year.   That’s hard to do.

            His power finally kicked in with Cincinnati in 1957, but he was 29 years old by then, and the clock was an issue.  In 1957 (18-11) he led the National League with 39 doubles.   In 1960 (22-10) he was, as I mentioned, second in the NL MVP voting.   In terms of front-line talent, the Pirates were no better than fifth in the NL, behind the Dodgers (Koufax, Drysdale, Maury Wills, Frank Howard, Tommy Davis), the Giants (Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Marichal), the Braves (Aaron, Mathews, Spahn, Burdette) and the Cardinals, who had Ken Boyer at third and probably the league’s two best pitchers, in Ernie Broglio and Lindy McDaniel.   The Pirates’ best player was Clemente, having his first pretty-good season (.314 with 16 homers, 94 RBI), but what made the team go was Hoak and Groat, Friend and Law, and the fact that the Pirates had finished the team in a way that the other organizations had failed to do.   If you compare players 1-5 on the roster, the other teams were much better than the Pirates—but if you compare players 16 through 25, the Pirates were way, way ahead.

            Hoak died of a heart attack in 1969.   A broadcaster for the Pirates, he had been a candidate to manage the team in 1970, and was informed on the morning of his death that he would not get the job.   Hours later he spotted his brother-in-law’s car, which (as I understand the story) had been reported stolen a few days before.   Chasing the car on foot, he suffered a heart attack and died.   His dream had been to manage the Pirates, and his wife would always claim that he died of a broken heart when he didn’t get the chance.

            Hoak wasn’t a good player long enough to be compared fairly to Chipper Jones, and he was nowhere near the hitter that Chipper was.   But if you had most of a championship team and you needed a player with fire in his belly to pull you to the top, Don Hoak was a player who could do that for you.

 

Don Hoak—Won and Lost Contributions

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1954

Bkn

26

7

26

.245

.398

.318

.717

5

7

2

1

7

8

.452

6

1955

Bkn

27

5

19

.240

.362

.350

.712

5

8

4

0

9

7

.558

10

1956

Cubs

28

5

37

.215

.311

.283

.594

5

14

1

4

6

18

.257

0

1957

Cin

29

19

89

.293

.482

.381

.863

14

9

4

2

18

11

.620

22

1958

Cin

30

6

50

.261

.376

.333

.709

7

11

4

1

11

13

.469

11

1959

Pit

31

8

65

.294

.399

.374

.773

13

10

6

2

20

12

.617

23

1960

Pit

32

16

79

.282

.445

.366

.810

16

8

6

3

22

10

.674

27

1961

Pit

33

12

61

.298

.451

.388

.839

15

6

4

4

18

11

.636

22

1962

Pit

34

5

48

.241

.350

.320

.670

6

13

5

2

11

14

.440

10

1963

Phi

35

6

24

.231

.324

.282

.605

5

12

4

1

9

13

.398

7

1964

Phi

36

0

0

.000

.000

.000

.000

0

0

0

0

0

1

.000

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

89

498

.265

.396

.345

.741

91

99

41

21

132

119

.525

138

 

 

 

Ron Cey 88, Jerry Denny 57

 

            Ron Cey used a 16-0 edge in Plate Discipline to built a 44-32 halftime advantage, and coasted to an easy victory over 19th century player Jerry Denny.   This concludes the first round of the tournament; second-round action will commence tomorrow.   Cey will meet Willie Kamm on September 26. 

 

 

Cey

Denny

Power

16

7

Speed

1

10

Hitting For Average

11

15

Plate Discipline

16

0

Career Length

13

5

Defense

12

13

Awards

12

6

Team Success

7

1

Total

88

57

 

            Born Jeremiah Dennis Eldridge in 1859, Denny has often been described as the last player to play without a glove.   Players were experimenting with gloves by the time Denny reached the majors in 1881, and had almost universally adopted fielder’s gloves by 1886.   Denny never did, and may have been the last player to play barehanded, although, well. . .think about it.    The last time a player took the field without a glove on his hand, did anybody know that this was the last time?    Billy Nash, also in this tournament, also played third base most of his career without a glove, and may well have played gloveless after Denny retired.

            Denny was a good player, except that his batting averages were just average, and his strikeout to walk ratios were terrible.   Whereas an average player in Denny’s era would have had 434 strikeouts, 361 walks in the same number of plate appearances, Denny had 602 strikeouts, 173 walks.    Gloveless or not, much of Denny’s value was in his glove.

 

 

Jeremiah Denny—Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1881

Prov

22

1

24

.241

.313

.252

.565

5

8

4

4

10

11

.460

9

1882

Prov

23

2

42

.246

.350

.255

.605

5

8

7

0

13

8

.602

15

1883

Prov

24

8

55

.275

.443

.291

.734

9

6

7

2

16

9

.640

19

1884

Prov

25

6

59

.248

.380

.272

.652

9

9

8

1

17

10

.637

21

1885

Prov

26

3

24

.223

.321

.252

.572

6

8

4

3

10

12

.458

9

1886

StL

27

9

62

.257

.389

.278

.668

10

10

7

3

17

13

.564

18

1887

Ind

28

11

97

.324

.502

.344

.846

13

7

5

4

18

11

.610

21

1888

Ind

29

12

63

.261

.408

.277

.685

13

9

4

6

17

16

.516

18

1889

Ind

30

18

112

.282

.417

.314

.731

10

14

7

3

17

17

.496

16

1890

NY

31

3

42

.213

.307

.270

.576

6

13

4

4

10

18

.367

6

1891

NY

32

0

1

.250

.313

.250

.563

0

0

0

0

1

0

.523

1

1891

Cle

32

0

21

.225

.261

.291

.552

1

5

0

2

1

6

.179

0

1891

Phi

32

0

11

.288

.329

.325

.653

1

2

1

1

3

2

.533

3

1893

Lou

34

1

22

.246

.337

.283

.620

2

5

2

2

4

7

.359

2

1894

Lou

35

0

32

.276

.389

.325

.714

3

6

2

3

5

9

.361

3

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

74

667

.260

.384

.287

.671

95

110

62

38

156

149

.511

160

 

 

            The second round of the tournament will kick off tomorrow with four seeds in action in all four regions.    Carney Lansford, the 4 seed in the Los Angeles regional, will face 12th-seeded Ken McMullen.    Ken Boyer, the 4 seed in St. Louis, will battle 5th-seeded Scott Rolen.   Bob Elliott, the 4 seed in Cleveland, will take on 12th-seeded Heinie Zimmerman, and Matt Williams, the 4 seed in Baltimore, will square off against 5th-seeded Jimmy Collins.

            “I think the routs are pretty much over,” said ESPN analyst Dick Vocale.   “Most of the games from this point on are going to be hard-fought, two-point contests, with very good players being eliminated from the tournament.”

            In Thursday’s action Sal Bando (3) will face Travis Fryman (6) in Cleveland, Todd Zeile (3) will face Don Money (6) in St. Louis, and Toby Harrah (3) will face Harlond Clift (6) in Baltimore.    Mike Lowell, a 9 seed, will take on top-seeded Buddy Bell in Los Angeles in the day’s final matchup.  

 

 

            OK, let me explain a little bit more about how the players are compared.  The recessive system, as I said earlier, is a ranking of the players one through 66 in eight different categories.

            This is not our primary method, on which we are relying; this is a sort of primitive or pre-sabermetric ranking method.   You know the system of free agent compensation rankings that baseball uses, that was negotiated into the Basic Agreement during the 1981 strike and is still there today, despite its manifest flaws?   That’s an average rank system.   This is a system like that—better than that, without the horrible glitches that that system has, but essentially the same.

            We rank the players one through 66 in eight categories, which are:

 

            1.  Isolated Power.    As mentioned earlier, Troy Glaus ranks first among the 66 players in this category, and Bob Aspromonte is last.   Glaus thus gets 66 points in the summary below, and Aspromonte gets 1.

 

            2.  A primitive Speed Score, which is (3 * triples, plus stolen bases, minus caught stealing, plus .05 times plate appearances) times 1000, divided by plate appearances.    The purpose of the .05 times PA addition is just to avoid dealing with negative numbers.   Most of these players tend to be slow—it’s one of the defining characteristics of the group--but the slowest players in the group are 1. Ken Reitz, 2. Vinny Castilla, 3. Mike Lowell, 4. Ray Knight, and 5. Todd Zeile. 

 

             3.  Batting Average.    Freddy Lindstrom has the highest batting average in the group of 66 players, and Clete Boyer the lowest.

            Of course, were we actually relying on the average rank system to evaluate the players, rather than merely using it to compare the players and explain the results, then we would have to park-adjust and era-adjust the things like Batting Average and Isolated Power.   This would be messy and time-consuming.   But since we are not actually relying on the numbers anyway, there is no real reason to make those adjustments.

 

            4.  Plate Discipline.  Just walks per plate appearance.   Harlond Clift ranks first among the 66 players in this category, with 155 walks per 1000 plate appearances, and Jerry Denny ranks last, with 34. 

 

            5.  Career Length.   Based on Career Plate Appearances.   Brooks Robinson ranks first in this area, while Tom Brookens ranks last. 

 

            6.   Defense.   Based on career Defensive Winning Percentage, from the Win Shares system.   Of the 20 best defensive third basemen in the tournament, 16 are still alive, the exceptions being Clete Boyer, Jeff Cirillo, David Bell and Don Hoak.    Of the 20 worst defensive players among the 66, 16 have been eliminated, the exceptions being Toby Harrah, Carney Lansford, Todd Zeile and Chipper Jones.

 

            7.  Awards.   I set up a simple system, giving players 10 points if they were in the Hall of Fame, 5 points for winning an MVP Award, 3 points for winning a Gold Glove, 2 points for appearing in an All-Star game, and 1 point for Rookie of the Year. 

            Brooks Robinson had 92 “Award Points”; no one else in the group had even half as many.   Ken Boyer, although not in the Hall of Fame, was second in this category with 45.

            Somebody posted a comment arguing that it was inappropriate to consider Awards in a comparison like this.   I think that’s dead wrong, and I’ll explain why another time.  In theory, I would like to consider and give some weight to awards.  However, the reality is that we couldn’t actually consider them here, because there would be such a “time line inequity” involved in so doing.    There are no MVP Awards before 1912 and very few before 1931, no Rookie of the Year Awards until 1947, no Gold Gloves until 1957, no All-Star games until the 1930s.   There are a lot of players who have “Award totals” of zero.   I ranked the players who had award totals of zero in inverse order of their games played.   The more games you played without winning an award, the lower you rank.    But, of course, we’re not REALLY going to low-rate Harry Steinfeldt or Billy Nash because he didn’t win awards that didn’t even exist when he was playing.   It’s just something to look at.

 

            8.   Team Success.   Ranked in order of team success percentage, of course.  I ran the data on this yesterday. 

 

 

            To this point, 34 players have been eliminated from the tournament.   This is how those 34 players rate in the Category Rankings comparison.   Again, the Category Rankings really have nothing directly to do with who is eliminated—but of the 20 players with the lowest Category Rankings, 16 were eliminated in the first round.   The four exceptions are Buddy Bell, Don Money, Willie Kamm and Harlond Clift.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hitting

 

Career

 

 

 

 

Rank

 

Speed

for

Plate

Length

Awards

Team

 

 

First

Last

Power

Avg.

Discipline

Defense

Success

Total

1

Ray

Boone

38

44

43

54

15

19

45

49

307

2

Troy

Glaus

66

20

15

64

26

20

50

46

307

3

Freddy

Lindstrom

29

60

66

5

30

18

48

43

299

4

Jeff

Cirillo

24

23

64

44

32

57

34

19

297

5

Vinny

Castilla

58

2

45

8

48

44

36

53

294

6

Kevin

Seitzer

8

43

61

53

29

28

37

24

283

7

Howard

Johnson

57

57

7

58

19

3

38

36

275

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8

Don

Hoak

22

46

30

47

8

50

27

40

270

9

Melvin

Mora

40

36

48

46

18

24

32

2

246

10

Doug

Rader

36

34

10

39

24

35

47

20

245

11

Aramis

Ramirez

62

9

56

29

23

15

33

18

245

12

Clete

Boyer

20

33

1

21

36

64

19

48

242

13

David

Bell

30

14

16

31

16

55

3

63

228

14

Jim

Davenport

7

40

19

25

10

33

31

62

227

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

15

Bill

Bradley

4

63

38

6

28

40

15

31

225

16

Larry

Parrish

50

15

27

19

49

4

41

14

219

17

Hubie

Brooks

25

25

34

9

37

6

39

37

212

18

Pinky

Whitney

13

54

62

10

35

17

12

6

209

19

Joe

Randa

32

37

54

24

27

30

2

1

207

20

Frank

Malzone

18

6

41

7

25

45

58

4

204

21

Dean

Palmer

64

31

8

42

17

1

22

15

200

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

22

Tony

Batista

60

28

9

12

9

41

35

3

197

23

Brook

Jacoby

27

13

35

34

11

10

40

16

186

24

Steve

Buechele

34

18

2

38

6

46

6

33

183

25

Tom

Brookens

15

52

3

14

1

42

8

47

182

26

Phil

Nevin

59

7

36

43

5

2

21

9

182

27

Jerry

Denny

16

62

21

1

13

39

18

7

177

28

Ray

Knight

10

4

39

15

14

16

42

32

172

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

29

Ed

Sprague

47

8

4

41

4

8

23

34

169

30

Charlie

Hayes

28

10

26

18

22

32

5

27

168

31

Bill

Melton

44

12

12

51

3

12

10

5

149

32

Luis

Salazar

12

55

24

3

2

14

7

29

146

33

Ken

Reitz

3

1

22

2

12

27

30

17

114

34

Bob

Aspromonte

1

17

11

17

7

9

11

11

84

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

COMMENTS (7 Comments, most recent shown first)

cderosa
Well said, Martin.

How's everybody's bracket so far? I'm 2-0 in the play-ins, and 25-7 in the first round--no research.
9:19 AM Sep 23rd
 
wovenstrap
When Bill James dips into the past to summarize a player in 1-3 paragraphs (sometimes longer, as in the Encyclopedia entries in the Baseball Books), that's one of the great pleasures in life. I'm enjoying the wrapups of the beaten players immensely. Even recent ones, like Jeff Cirillo -- note to Bill: there's a lot some of us don't know about these guys, don't let that stop you.
12:56 AM Sep 23rd
 
hotstatrat
I do wonder why Speed and Team Success are given such a wide range of values - as power, hitting for average, plate discipline, and defense. That doesn't smell right, as you would say. However, this is your game - and I'm not complaining (see above).
12:37 AM Sep 23rd
 
MarisFan61
Yes -- even though I never would have confused him with Caminiti.
I just was thinking I must have missed some terrible news about Cirillo although I didn't see how I could have.
I was so stunned by it that my eyes didn't move on at all. If they had, I would have seen David Bell's name and would then have realized something was wrong.......no way I would have missed such news about *two* guys.

It's an example of how we can miss stuff when it's in 'writing.' I'm absolutely sure we wouldn't have gotten any wrong impression if we'd heard Bill saying it. And yeah, he basically writes as he talks, which is part of the wonderfulness.
Even though maybe once in a while it makes us think someone died. :-)
10:03 PM Sep 22nd
 
SeanKates
MarisFan61 - I immediately thought the same thing about the "Defense" Section, and wondered if somehow I had confused Jeff Cirillo and Ken Caminiti somehow.
5:41 PM Sep 22nd
 
MarisFan61
P.S. I wonder if the lack of other 'Comments' might mean that a lot of people don't realize what all is in this entry. Among other things, Bill has given us some more explanation of the system.

BTW......to help make sure nobody else gets the mistaken shock that I did:
In the "Defense" section, I took "16 are still alive" in a hyper-literal way and for a few seconds I got scared about Jeff Cirillo and David Bell.....
3:27 PM Sep 22nd
 
MarisFan61
Jim Bouton had a great quote from Don Hoak in "Ball Four." I won't quote it, partly because maybe most of you already know it but mainly because I'm not sure it's family-suitable enough for this site. :-)
I'll just say that Bouton considered it the most effective pep talk ever -- and it was just 1 sentence.

About this Jerry Denny guy: Let me be the first (I think) to admit that I never heard of him before.
I have no worry about it, because I'm sure I'm not alone. :-)
And oh......I did hear of Bill Bradley, but I have a feeling it's the wrong one.....
2:46 AM Sep 22nd
 
 
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