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The Brooks Robinson Tournament--The Elite Eight

September 30, 2010

 

October 1, 2010

 

Baltimore Regional

Brooks Robinson (1) against

Toby Harrah (3)

Today

 

Cleveland Regional

Graig Nettles (1) against

Ron Santo (2)

Today

 

 

St. Louis Regional

Chipper Jones (2) against

Scott Rolen (5)

Tomorrow

 

Los Angeles Regional

Buddy Bell (1) against

Ron Cey (3)

Tomorrow

 

 

 

ROBBY IN FINAL FOUR

 

          Brooks Robinson became the first player to qualify for the Final Four in the Brooks Robinson Invitational Tournament, using a 16-2 advantage in “Defense” to fend off Toby Harrah.

 

 

Robinson

Harrah

Power

10

9

Speed

3

5

Hitting For Average

10

9

Plate Discipline

4

12

Career Length

8

7

Defense

16

2

Awards

3

1

Team Success

5

2

Total

59

47

 

            Harrah and Robinson were fairly evenly matched in terms of hitting for average and hitting for power, and reasonably even in some other areas.  The game came down to Harrah’s walks against Robinson’s defense.    Harrah, who had walk totals of 98, 91, 109, 83, 89, 98, 84 and 113, had a .365 on base percentage, compared to .322 for Robinson, whose career high in walks was 63.  Over the course of a long career that amounts to a difference of about 500 times on base—obviously a substantial margin.   The question of the day was whether that margin would be larger or smaller than Robinson’s advantage with the glove.

            Smaller.   Robinson’s advantage in fielding percentage at third base (.971 to .963) amounts to about 70 plays over the course of a career.    Robinson played more than 25,000 innings at third base in his career; Harrah, a little more than 9,000, making a straight comparison difficult.   However, Robinson, per 1400 innings—assuming 1400 innings to be a season—Robinson per 1400 innings averaged 151 putouts, 347 assists.   Harrah per 1400 innings averaged 119 putouts, 295 assists.   We have to try to adjust for strikeout context, try to adjust for balls in play, the team’s overall defensive success, and Harrah’s contributions at other defensive positions, and that’s not easy.   Still, one can easily see how Robinson’s advantage on defense could amount to much more than 500 plays over the course of a career.

            Harrah was an interesting player, an extremely good athlete who had power and speed in addition to his throwing arm and his ability to get on base—a quite remarkable combination of assets.    He was, perhaps, a little bit like Tulowitski; he looked more athletic that Tulowitski, but Tulowitski’s a hell of an athlete although he doesn’t exactly look the part.

            Harrah—whose real name was “Colbert Dale Harrah”—had a little bit of Wally Moses’ Disease, which is to say:  he was always good at something, but not necessarily everything at the same time.  He hit as many as 27 homers, stole as many as 31 bases, walked as many as 113 times, hit as high as .304, had on-base percentages as high as .432, and played a pretty decent shortstop.   He tended to do two or three things well every year.   His on-base percentages from 1984 to 1986 read .331, .432, .322. 

            Although Harrah had decent footwork he did not have the superior quickness of the top-rank defensive shortstops, nor did he have Cal Ripken’s arm to set up deep and compensate for it.   He could have been a good third baseman, but he insisted on playing too shallow, even though he was repeatedly asked to back up.   His argument was that he was “cutting down the cone”.   If you visualize the trajectory of baseballs leaving the bat and heading toward left field over third base, you get a “cone” that gets wider as you leave the plate.   Harrah thought that he came out ahead by playing the narrower part of the cone.   He was certainly wrong about this.  There is a formula in there somewhere that could be used to explain this, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.    Let’s say that the width of the cone is proportional to the distance from home plate.   By pulling in ten feet you make the cone’s width 9 (90 feet) rather than 10 (100 feet). 

            The thing is, if the third baseman was 15 feet from home plate, obviously he would be unable to make any plays (or virtually any plays), because he would not have time to react.   Thus, his reaction time is proportional not to his distance from home plate, but to his distance from home plate minus about 20 feet—the “startup time” to get his body in motion.  By pulling in ten feet, Harrah was reducing the width of the Cone about 10%, but reducing the area that he could cover about 15%.   That’s not exactly right, but there’s something there.

            This would be an interesting real-world experiment.   Paint a “cone” on the ground, a cone about 35 feet wide at a distance of 100 feet, then tapering down to one foot wide at the origin (the plate).   Take a group of infielders, and ask them (one by one) to “guard the cone”—that is, field any ball they can field—at a distance of 50 feet, 60 feet, 70 feet, 80 feet, etc.   Then have a coach try to hit hot shots past them, but within the cone, and then figure the percentage of balls within the cone that were fielded at each distance.   I’m quite certain you would find that the percentage for every fielder increased as he backed up—limited, of course, by his ability to throw the hitter out from that distance.

            Harrah played so shallow at third base that he really couldn’t get to pop ups in shallow left that would ordinarily have been routine outs.  This made him a defensive liability at third base, and obviously, you’d rather have Brooks Robinson at third base than a player who hits for the same average with the same power, but who’s a defensive liability.   Robinson’s “marginal win percentage” compared to Harrah was .587, and Harrah’s career, though outstanding, is below the minimum standard of a Hall of Fame candidate.

Toby Harrah—Career Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1969

Was

20

0

0

.000

.000

.000

.000

0

0

0

0

0

0

.000

0

1971

Was

22

2

22

.230

.290

.300

.590

6

12

2

3

8

15

.349

5

1972

Tex

23

1

31

.259

.321

.316

.637

9

7

1

4

10

11

.475

10

1973

Tex

24

10

50

.260

.364

.328

.693

9

11

3

3

12

14

.451

11

1974

Tex

25

21

74

.260

.417

.319

.736

14

12

5

4

19

16

.545

20

1975

Tex

26

20

93

.293

.458

.403

.861

19

2

6

2

25

4

.847

35

1976

Tex

27

15

67

.260

.377

.360

.737

16

10

6

3

21

13

.625

26

1977

Tex

28

27

87

.263

.479

.393

.872

18

5

4

4

22

9

.713

29

1978

Tex

29

12

59

.229

.360

.349

.709

13

8

4

3

17

12

.584

19

1979

Cle

30

20

77

.279

.444

.389

.833

15

8

1

6

16

13

.547

18

1980

Cle

31

11

72

.267

.380

.379

.759

15

9

5

2

20

12

.637

25

1981

Cle

32

5

44

.291

.388

.382

.770

13

2

2

3

15

5

.749

20

1982

Cle

33

25

78

.304

.490

.398

.888

21

3

3

4

25

7

.781

34

1983

Cle

34

9

53

.266

.365

.363

.728

12

12

4

4

15

15

.498

15

1984

NYA

35

1

26

.217

.296

.331

.628

5

7

2

2

7

9

.434

6

1985

Tex

36

9

44

.270

.389

.432

.820

13

4

2

3

15

7

.678

19

1986

Tex

37

7

41

.218

.367

.322

.689

5

8

1

3

6

11

.358

4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

195

918

.264

.395

.365

.760

204

119

50

55

254

174

.593

294

 

 

 

 

NETTLES OUSTS SANTO IN OVERTIME, 67-66

 

            Ron Santo hit .300 four times in his career; Graig Nettles never did.   Santo’s career average, .277, was 29 points higher than Nettles (.248)—but Graig Nettles is moving on to the Final Four, and Ron Santo is out of the tournament.

 

 

Nettles

Santo

Power

13

11

Speed

4

5

Hitting For Average

4

18

Plate Discipline

9

10

Career Length

11

8

Defense

16

9

Awards

2

2

Team Success

8

3

Total

67

66

 

            Although Santo won five Gold Gloves and scores at 75-38 as a defensive player, he loses the defensive comparison to Nettles, 16-9.   That gave back 7 points of the 14 that he gained from “Hitting for Average”, and Nettles also beat Santo in terms of Power (13-11), Career Length (11-8), and Team Success (8-3).

            Ron Santo is the best player eliminated from the tournament thus far.   In my opinion, as I have stated many times, Santo’s career is well above the standards of the Hall of Fame, and I believe that he should have been selected long ago.   He played at something near an MVP level every year from 1963 to 1969—easily the best seven-year stretch by any player in the tournament.   He was a good player for four years after that stretch ended.

            Nettles’ marginal winning percentage, above Santo’s career, was .360.   It is not absolutely clear that Nettles was better than Santo, but. . .that’s the result that I got from the system I set up, and I don’t see a compelling argument to ignore it.

 

Ron Santo—Career Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1960

Cubs

20

9

44

.251

.409

.311

.720

6

9

0

4

7

13

.337

3

1961

Cubs

21

23

83

.284

.479

.362

.842

14

10

3

5

17

15

.526

18

1962

Cubs

22

17

83

.227

.358

.302

.659

8

19

5

3

13

22

.374

9

1963

Cubs

23

25

99

.297

.481

.339

.820

18

8

8

2

26

10

.722

34

1964

Cubs

24

30

114

.313

.564

.398

.962

23

1

6

2

29

4

.890

41

1965

Cubs

25

33

101

.285

.510

.378

.888

20

4

6

2

26

7

.796

36

1966

Cubs

26

30

94

.312

.538

.412

.950

22

1

4

2

26

3

.883

37

1967

Cubs

27

31

98

.300

.512

.395

.906

22

2

7

1

29

3

.904

42

1968

Cubs

28

26

98

.246

.421

.354

.775

16

10

8

1

23

11

.684

30

1969

Cubs

29

29

123

.289

.485

.384

.869

18

7

5

3

24

9

.717

31

1970

Cubs

30

26

114

.267

.476

.369

.844

12

12

6

1

19

13

.586

21

1971

Cubs

31

21

88

.267

.423

.354

.778

14

10

5

3

19

14

.580

21

1972

Cubs

32

17

74

.302

.487

.391

.878

15

5

5

2

20

6

.764

27

1973

Cubs

33

20

77

.267

.440

.348

.788

12

12

4

4

16

16

.500

16

1974

CWS

34

5

41

.221

.299

.293

.591

4

13

2

3

6

16

.279

1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

342

1331

.277

.464

.362

.826

224

123

75

38

299

161

.650

368

 

 

            These are the best seven-year stretches by any third baseman in the tournament:

 

Player

From

To

Won

Lost

Pct

Value

Ron Santo

1963

1969

183

47

.796

251

Chipper Jones

1996

2002

172

44

.796

236

Ron Cey

1974

1980

165

56

.748

220

Jimmy Collins

1898

1904

164

69

.703

212

Ken Boyer

1958

1964

160

63

.717

209

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sal Bando

1969

1975

159

63

.715

207

Graig Nettles

1972

1978

161

75

.684

205

Brooks Robinson

1962

1968

159

76

.675

199.9

Bob Elliott

1943

1949

154

62

.712

199.8

Buddy Bell

1978

1984

150

61

.711

194

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill Bradley

1900

1906

147

68

.683

187

Sal Bando

1967

1973

142

58

.710

184

Billy Nash

1887

1893

141

72

.664

176

Harlond Clift

1936

1942

141

76

.650

174

Harry Steinfeldt

1903

1909

139

75

.651

171.4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Toby Harrah

1974

1980

141

79

.640

171.3

Scott Rolen

1996

2002

124

42

.745

165

Edgardo Alfonzo

1997

2003

131

64

.671

164

Tim Wallach

1984

1990

137

90

.603

160

Freddie Lindstrom

1927

1933

132

83

.613

156

 
 

COMMENTS (6 Comments, most recent shown first)

THBR
MarisFan61's second post is a terrific idea! Even tho physics is not completely "solved", in that we don't have a Grand Unifying Theory yet, there must be SOME physics ABD out there who would like to take a crack at this. The Quickness vs Speed argument -- er, distinction -- is one that could be and SHOULD be thoroughly tested if possible. Thanks, MF61!
1:29 PM Oct 2nd
 
Jongro
Very close call, Santo vs. Nettles, and sure, no compelling reason to reverse the system. Also no compelling reason to reverse my admittedly biased opinion that Santo was a slightly better player who did not have the good fortune to play on teams as strong as Nettles did. Santo's 7-year peak in which he's the best player in the tournament vs. Nettles' longer career? Flip a coin.
12:58 AM Oct 2nd
 
nettles9
Graig Nettles, in an 1983 episode of "The Baseball Bunch", hosted by Johnny Bench, talked about playing third base. One of the things he mentioned was the "defensive cone", stating he would play back farther to widen the "cone", giving him much more range in the field. I wish it was on YouTube. Bill quoted Nettles in one of the Abstracts about the "cone". Toby Harrah, I believe, replaced Nettles at third base for the N.Y. Yankees in 1984, while Graig went to San Diego to play in another World Series.

Does Nettles still have the greatest season by a 40-year old third baseman? (See the 1986 Baseball Abstract for details)

Nettles is my favorite player of all-time. I told him this back in the mid-1990s when I met him at a card show. He signed my copy of "Balls" and, while he was signing it, I told him that he was always the first player I drafted when I used to have Strat-O-Matic leagues with my friends (which was so very true).

I was surprised he got past Ron Santo, though it was close, O.T. and all. I thought Santo's Hitting for Average and Plate Discipline would be enough to beat Nettles. I figured that Nettles would have the advantage in fielding but not by as much as it was. A thing about Nettles, too, was that, for quite a few seasons he hit left-handed pitchers pretty well and, though he only had 80+ walks twice in his career (1970 he had 81 and 82 in 1971), he did walk a decent amount and didn't strike out in vast quantities. Of course, that inviting right-field of the more-recent old Yankee Stadium enticed him to pull the ball more.

I have an RC Cola soda can that came out in 1978 that I bought in a shop up in Cooperstown back in the late 1990s/very early 2000s that has Nettles on it, number 88 of 100 of the RC Collector's Series Number Two. I bought it for $10 then saw it had a sticker on the bottom that had a price much lower than that. The interesting thing is that I never felt I was ripped off.

Let's dunk Brooksie!! Go Puff!!

10:13 PM Oct 1st
 
jdw
"Nettles’ marginal winning percentage, above Santo’s career, was .360"

Santo's worst full season was at a 13-22 (.374) clip. Unless I'm missing something, Nettles marginal value above Santo is really bad: that's a 74 OPS+ Santo put up in 1962 and not one of his better defensive seasons. I would be interested in what percentage of pennant/division winners since 1961 (Santo's first full season) were able to carry 3B play that was at or worse 13-22 (.374). Even how many realistic contenders were able to. 10%?

I'm just wondering is .250 at 3B in the modern era is just too low. I can see it perhaps at SS, though it's something of a stetch for good teams. But at 3B, it seems off. Looks at Santo's last season: it's above .250. But it was such an awful year that he was done. It's hard to have seen him putting up several .279 - .350 years in that era and retaining a job.
9:10 PM Oct 1st
 
MarisFan61
P.S. (sorry about a 2nd post)
About the "cone" thing: Very interesting. It could be a dissertation for some physicist baseball fan.

Bill mentioned 'throwing arm' as a factor that would affect the results. I think there are a couple of other particular skills which would make the "cone" results vary, and which might even make Harrah's idea RIGHT for some players, if not about himself.

We could call these skills "Quickness" (i.e. in the first split-second, to include reflexes and first-moves), and Speed (i.e. what comes thereafter, mostly I guess foot speed).

It seems to me that "Quickness" is the main thing that might enable a player to be particularly good at "cutting down the cone" by playing shallow. So, if a player is unusually high on Quickness *but very low on Speed*, I can imagine it's possible that he gains more than he loses by playing shallower. (And more so, of course, if his arm isn't that strong.) In any event, I think these qualities of the player would affect the "cone" results, and could indicate differing optimal depths of positioning.
1:32 AM Oct 1st
 
MarisFan61
So......another bare squeaker for Nettles.

As per Bill's write-up, Santo seems much more often to be talked about as a could-be HOF'er; Nettles rarely is. Yet, Graig comes out ahead. I'm both surprised and not surprised. I saw both of their careers and felt Graig was a bit better, but because of what has been written since then, I assumed Santo had been a clearly-better player.

Nettles is one of the main players on whom I've been surprised that there has been so little support in HOF voting. I've wondered if some of it might be due to the apparent personal dislike that many seem to have for him (and which, as I mentioned, I've never really understood).
Of course his .248 BA might have something to do with it too. :-)

In the late '70's or early '80's, there was a long article in the NY Times Magazine about the Yankees, in which Nettles was referred to as a 'sure Hall of Famer' (I don't remember the exact wording but that's close). I wondered if there would be a letter thereafter saying they were wrong. There was.
1:00 AM Oct 1st
 
 
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