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The Brooks Robinson Tournament--Down to the Final Four

October 2, 2010

October 2, 2010

Brooks Robinson (1) against

Graig Nettles (1)

Final Four

 

 

 

St. Louis Regional

Chipper Jones (2) against

Scott Rolen (5)

Today

 

Los Angeles Regional

Buddy Bell (1) against

Ron Cey (3)

Today

 

 

 

 

81-79, Chipper

 

 

            Chipper Jones used five small advantages over Scott Rolen to overcome a 17-point deficit in the field and advance into the Final Four:

 

 

Chipper

Rolen

Power

16

13

Speed

5

6

Hitting For Average

17

12

Plate Discipline

13

10

Career Length

14

9

Defense

5

22

Awards

3

3

Team Success

8

4

Total

81

79

 

 

            Among all the players in the tournament, the biggest surprise to me was Scott Rolen.   I believe that about two months ago, I did get a question in the “Hey, Bill” section asking about Scott Rolen and the Hall of Fame.   I just kind of blew it off.   I didn’t believe that Rolen’s career was anywhere near that stature.

            When I first figured Rolen’s career Win Shares and Loss Shares and came up with a record that would put him in the Hall of Fame, I assumed that I had made some sort of data entry error.    I figure the Win Shares in a spreadsheet.  Sometimes I get data in the wrong column, and when that happens we may wind up with a player showing at 212-58 when he should be 119-141 because I have entered his RBI in the home run column.   I saw Rolen’s won-lost record, I simply assumed I had a data entry error.

            And I did find a data entry error.   I found a data entry error that changed Rolen’s “Fielding” Won-Lost record from 63-10—which would have been the best defensive percentage in the tournament—to 60-13, the second-best.    But while doing that, I kept poking around at the data, and. . .Rolen seemed to calculate pretty well.   There were all those seasons with .900+ OPS—1998, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004.   Even now. . .he’s old and the stats have gone back to normal. . .he still has an OPS near .900.  Ron Cey was a heck of a player; he never had a .900 OPS.

I was still trying to figure out where I might have messed up.   At some point I came up with the idea of the “recessive rating system”—rating the players by an entirely separate and sometimes inconsistent method.    When I rated the 66 third basemen by how they ranked in eight different categories, Rolen came in second among the 66 players.   A close second—four points behind Chipper Jones, thirty points ahead of Ken Boyer, who was third.   That’s when I realized. . .oh, it’s a not a data screw-up.   I just didn’t realize what a good career he has had.

            Is Rolen really the second-best (percentage) defensive player in the tournament, behind Jimmy Collins?   Well. . .I don’t know.   Let’s say he isn’t.   Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that that’s some sort of data illusion, and that his defense shouldn’t be scored at 60-13.   What should it be?

            He’s a pretty good third baseman, right?   He’s won eight Gold Gloves.   The aggregate defensive winning percentage of the third basemen in this tournament is .609.   Let’s say Rolen was just average for this group.   That would make him 44-29 on defense, which would make him 244-115 overall.  That’s still well above a Hall of Fame standard.

            I am asked often about the Hall of Fame standing of Jorge Posada or Chase Utley or Manny Ramirez or Jim Thome or Ivan Rodriguez, and I mostly just dodge the question.   It’s better to get perspective on the player, let things settle down in the mind.    There’s really nothing to be gained, in my view, from starting a Hall of Fame argument about somebody who hasn’t even retired yet.

            Rolen, in some way, has failed to build a legend that parallels his accomplishments.   There is a legend associated with Ivan Rodriguez; there is a legend of Jim Rice and a legend of Albert Pujols and a legend of Manny Ramirez.   There is a point in a Hall of Famer’s career at which we start talking about him as if he were his own universe, spinning within the universe of the game.  Maybe Rolen’s legend was lost because his best years were in St. Louis, and that ended badly.   I don’t know.   Maybe he’s not as good as his numbers.   Maybe the reason we shouldn’t rate him where he seems to rate will become obvious to us in six or eight years.

            But Ken Boyer, who I think could be in the Hall of Fame, was a premier player for nine years, from 1956 to 1964.    Rolen has been playing at a comparable level for 14 years now.    It’s a nice career.

 

Scott Rolen—Career Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1996

Phil

21

4

18

.254

.400

.322

.722

2

4

0

1

3

5

.355

2

1997

Phil

22

21

92

.283

.469

.377

.846

17

7

4

2

21

8

.715

27

1998

Phil

23

31

110

.290

.532

.391

.923

18

6

4

2

23

8

.734

30

1999

Phil

24

26

77

.268

.525

.368

.893

12

6

3

1

15

7

.688

19

2000

Phil

25

26

89

.298

.551

.370

.921

14

5

4

0

18

6

.764

24

2001

Phil

26

25

107

.289

.498

.378

.876

17

6

6

0

24

6

.804

33

2002

Phil

27

17

66

.259

.472

.358

.830

11

5

3

1

14

6

.685

18

2002

StL

28

14

44

.278

.561

.354

.915

7

1

3

0

10

1

.889

14

2003

StL

29

28

104

.286

.528

.382

.910

18

6

4

2

22

8

.744

29

2004

StL

30

34

124

.314

.598

.409

1.007

21

0

7

+1

27

+1

1.028

41

2005

StL

31

5

28

.235

.383

.323

.706

4

5

3

0

7

5

.591

8

2006

StL

32

22

95

.296

.518

.369

.887

15

6

5

1

21

7

.747

27

2007

StL

33

8

58

.265

.398

.331

.729

8

10

4

1

11

11

.513

12

2008

Tor

34

11

50

.262

.431

.349

.780

10

8

3

2

13

10

.580

15

2009

Tor

35

8

43

.320

.476

.370

.846

10

3

1

2

11

6

.666

14

2009

Cin

36

3

24

.270

.401

.364

.765

4

2

1

0

5

3

.620

5

2010

Cin

37

20

84

.290

.504

.363

.867

13

5

4

0

17

4

.794

23

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

303

1213

.284

.498

.370

.868

200

85

60

13

260

99

.725

341

 

 

 

 

Penquin Anquish

Buddy Bell 76, Ron Cey 74 (OT)

 

            In a close and controversial decision, Buddy Bell used advantages in defense, career length and hitting for average to survive a rugged challenge from Ron Cey, and move into the Final Four of the Brooks Robinson Invitational Tournament. 

 

 

Bell

Cey

Power

8

19

Speed

8

3

Hitting For Average

20

8

Plate Discipline

8

13

Career Length

12

9

Defense

16

11

Awards

3

2

Team Success

1

9

Total

76

74

 

 

            “It’s an outrage, a (bleeping) outrage,” said Dodger fan Hilda Chester in an interview in The Pearly Times.   “Anybody that thinks that Buddy Bell was a better player than Ron Cey probably thinks that Dabney Coleman is a better actor than Jimmy Stewart.   The referees in this thing were just Penguin Haters, that’s all.” 

            Ron Cey was a fine player, and my respect for him is well known.  Bell was a regular before Cey was, and Bell was still a regular after Cey was gone.   Ron Cey was a reliable third baseman with a good arm who was quite good in the field despite his odd build.   Buddy Bell was a Gold Glove third baseman.

            Although Bell’s career batting average was .279 and Cey’s was .261, Ron Cey was a better hitter than Buddy Bell.   Bell’s marginal winning percentage, above Ron Cey, was just .327, and it is not absolutely clear that Bell was better than Cey.   But that’s what the system that I’ve set up shows, and I’m going to go with it. 

 

Ron Cey—Career Won and Lost Contributions

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1971

LA

23

0

0

.000

.000

.000

.000

0

0

0

0

0

0

.000

0

1972

LA

24

1

3

.270

.378

.400

.778

1

0

0

0

2

1

.740

2

1973

LA

25

15

80

.245

.385

.338

.723

11

11

6

2

17

13

.570

19

1974

LA

26

18

97

.262

.397

.349

.746

16

9

6

2

23

11

.674

29

1975

LA

27

25

101

.283

.473

.372

.845

20

4

7

2

26

6

.817

36

1976

LA

28

23

80

.277

.462

.386

.848

18

3

8

0

25

4

.878

36

1977

LA

29

30

110

.241

.450

.347

.797

15

10

7

2

22

12

.651

27

1978

LA

30

23

84

.270

.452

.380

.833

19

5

6

3

25

8

.752

33

1979

LA

31

28

81

.281

.499

.389

.888

17

4

5

2

22

5

.802

30

1980

LA

32

28

77

.254

.452

.342

.794

16

8

7

2

22

10

.691

29

1981

LA

33

13

50

.288

.474

.372

.846

11

2

3

1

15

3

.817

20

1982

LA

34

24

79

.254

.428

.323

.751

14

10

5

4

19

14

.578

21

1983

Cubs

35

24

90

.275

.460

.346

.805

15

10

2

6

18

16

.520

18

1984

Cubs

36

25

97

.240

.442

.324

.766

11

11

4

4

15

15

.502

15

1985

Cubs

37

22

63

.232

.408

.316

.724

9

13

3

3

12

17

.421

10

1986

Cubs

38

13

36

.273

.508

.384

.891

8

3

1

2

9

5

.670

12

1987

Oak

39

4

11

.221

.394

.359

.754

3

2

0

1

3

3

.466

2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

316

1139

.261

.445

.354

.799

204

106

70

35

274

142

.659

340

 
 

COMMENTS (12 Comments, most recent shown first)

Paul
Tom --
I didn't mean to imply that those Cardinals weren't a good team; they were a very good team. But to be dominant in the sense I meant you have to reach quite a high standard indeed. In the six seasons that Rolen was with the Cardinals for part or all of the year, there were 3 years they had a record around 82-80. Certainly their qualifications as a whole are much better than that one fact by itself suggests, but that half the time they were either barely above .500 or were actually below .500 makes it almost impossible to call them a dominant team in the sense I use the phrase.

Frankly, though, the second sentence of my original post was intended at least as much as snark directed toward the national media's interest in the Midwest as serious analysis. The only real point I was making is that the glare of the spotlight on Pujols made it harder to see that Rolen was awfully good too.
5:53 AM Oct 3rd
 
tbell
Rolen's Cardinals weren't dominant?

2002 97-65 (1st place)
2003 85-77 (3rd)
2004 105-57 (1st, lost World Series)
2005 100-62 (1st)
2006 83-78 (1st, won World Series)
2007 78-84 (3rd)

Four division titles in six years, two 100-win seasons, two trips to the World Series, winning one ... Paul, how much more must a team dominate to be considered dominant? They had also won 93 and 95 games and made the playoffs the two preceding years. It was a nice little dynasty ....
12:50 AM Oct 3rd
 
MarisFan61
PAUL: Don't feel bad -- it happens to the best of us.
As well as the worst. I know that personally. :-)

BILL: I think when you get questions about guys like Posada for the HOF, even speaking as big Yankee fan I think all you need to do is remind yourself of the "Keltner List" and realize that you come up with very few yes's.
In other words, we don't always need no stinkin' metrics. :-)
IMO the Keltner List is the most meaningful system for saying not only who 'should' be in the HOF but also who will be. Perfect? No. But the best.
1:33 PM Oct 2nd
 
ajmilner
Rolen didn't get a lot of respect in Philly because a) he was in the shadow of Mike Schmidt, the greatest all-around third baseman in MLB history; b) the Phillies of the late '90s were lousy; and c) Rolen made no secret of his wish to leave Philly, which didn't endear himself to the fans. But yeah, overall he's had a surprisingly impressive career.
11:40 AM Oct 2nd
 
jdw
Career length becomes king in the later stages. Get the feeling that the tourney would be entirely different if the method from the NewHistAb was used, attempting to balance career and peak. Chipper and Buddy are too close in career (10009 vs 9654 PA) to save Buddy. But Brooks is off life support in the tourney.
10:31 AM Oct 2nd
 
Paul
Okaaayy, I'm gonna stop posting for a while.
9:20 AM Oct 2nd
 
Paul
Sorry for the double post -- not sure how that happened. Please delete it (and this one too) if you can, Bill and/or tech guy.
9:18 AM Oct 2nd
 
Paul
Sorry for the double post -- not sure how that happened. Please delete it (and this one too) if you can, Bill and/or tech guy.
9:17 AM Oct 2nd
 
Paul
I think one key to Rolen not getting full recognition for the great player he is is because Pujols was(deservedly) perceived as the best player on that Cardinals team. And because (a) they weren't a dominant team and (b) they were pretty far from the nation's media centers, they were only permitted one star.
9:15 AM Oct 2nd
 
3for3
I was surprised when you said his best year were in St. Louis. When Rolen left Philly, I knew he was an excellent player, deserving to be considered for HOF, if he kept up his play. One other thing not mentioned, is Rolen was a great baserunner in Philly too.
8:48 AM Oct 2nd
 
Paul
I think one key to Rolen not getting full recognition for the great player he is is because Pujols was(deservedly) perceived as the best player on that Cardinals team. And because (a) they weren't a dominant team and (b) they were pretty far from the nation's media centers, they were only permitted one star.
8:08 AM Oct 2nd
 
mikeclaw
I'm a Cardinals fan. I always knew Rolen was a good defensive 3B in Philadelphia, but it wasn't until he came to St. Louis and I started watching him on a regular basis that I realized *how* good he was. I don't have statistical analysis to offer (Bill has that covered pretty well), but watching him on a regular basis, I was amazed how often Scott Rolen made difficult plays look easy. I don't mean diving stops "SportsCenter" plays. Just watching him handle tricky hops, hard angles, off-balance throws ... how frequently he would get to balls to his left that you thought would be out of reach, and then come up with a good, strong accurate throw when you figured he would be off-balance. He's smart, and he has great hands, quick feet, terrific balance and a strong arm. He has been my favorite 3B to watch since the days of Schmidt and Brett.
8:05 AM Oct 2nd
 
 
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