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Robby into Final

October 3, 2010

 

October 3, 2010

Brooks Robinson (1) against

Graig Nettles (1)

Today

Chipper Jones (2) against

Buddy Bell (1)

Tomorrow

 

 

 

 

Robinson 81, Nettles 80

 

            At this level it’s not supposed to be easy, and it wasn’t.   Brooks Robinson took a 19-10 hit in “power” and a 16-7 lick in “Plate discipline”, but held off Graig Nettles at the wire for an 81-80 victory, moving into the championship game on Tuesday. 

 

 

Robinson

Nettles

Power

10

19

Speed

6

6

Hitting For Average

22

5

Plate Discipline

7

16

Career Length

11

12

Defense

15

14

Awards

4

3

Team Success

6

5

Total

81

80

 

 

            Nettles’ standing in history is a controversial subject, and has been for many years.   I would say that he has three kinds of fans who think that he is underrated:  Yankee fans, who valued his contributions to the Yankee World Championships of 1977 and ’78; sabermetricians, who liked Nettles combination of power, walks and defense; and fans of the eccentric, who value Nettles’ uniqueness and humor.    On the other side there are as many groups:  traditionalists, who can’t relate to the idea of a .248 hitter as a great player no matter what else he does; Brooks Robinson fans, many of whom resented Nettles’—not the nicest man in the sport—being compared to Brooks, who was; Yankee-haters, no doubt; and. . .well, skeptics.   People who just need to be convinced that the sum of Nettles’ skills is something out of the ordinary.

            We have, as baseball fans, normal and traditional ways of finding the sum of a player’s skills.   The thing about Nettles, I think, is that he is so unusual that the normal methods don’t work fluidly.    In 1984 Graig Nettles was 39 years old and hit .228—and nobody even thought about taking his job away from him.   How unusual is that?  You can’t do an ordinary, intuitive summing-up on him, because he’s just not ordinary.   Ordinarily, a great player starts out at average and goes up.   He starts out, if he’s a third baseman, hitting .265 with 12 homers and 8 stolen bases.    Then, if he hits 25 homers instead of 12, we add something for that, and if he hits .290 rather than .265 we add something for that, and if he steals 12 bases a year rather than 8, we add something for that, and if he is a Gold Glove third baseman, we add something for that.   If he hits .290 with 25 homers and 12 steals and is a Gold Glove third baseman, he’s Ken Boyer.

            Graig Nettles was really not Ken Boyer.   He started at .265, and went down.   He started at 8 stolen bases, and went down—but then he had not Ken Boyer’s power, but more, and not Ken Boyer’s defense, but better.   He was a mixture of 10s and 2s, being compared to guys who were 6s and 7s.   It’s not obvious what the total is.

            What does it mean to say that someone is a “great” player?   It means, does it not, that he is something more than merely a good player?  This is a list of the highest assists totals of all time at third base:

 

Player

YEAR

Assists

Graig Nettles

1971

412

Brooks Robinson

1974

410

Graig Nettles

1973

410

Harlond Clift

1937

405

Brooks Robinson

1967

405

Mike Schmidt

1974

404

Doug DeCinces

1982

399

Buddy Bell

1982

396

Clete Boyer

1962

396

Mike Schmidt

1977

396

 

 

            Nettles one and three. . .but is that real?   What about. . .team strikeouts?   What about the ground ball tendencies of the team?   Don’t we have to factor all that in?

            We have to factor all that in if we are attempting to determine who had the greatest range of all time at third base.   If we are asserting that Graig Nettles had more assists in 1971 and 1973 than anyone else ever because he had more range at third base than anyone else, then yes, we need to factor all those things in.

            If, on the other hand, we are merely trying to assert that Graig Nettles was an exceptional defensive third baseman, then it may be enough to let the facts speak for themselves.   Let us suppose that the data point was ERA, and the list was the lowest ERAs in a season since 1920.   The list would, of course, begin with Bob Gibson.   If we were trying to assert that Bob Gibson was in fact the greatest pitcher since 1920, then it would be necessary to adjust for context, league ERA, park effects, un-earned runs, etc.   If we are merely asserting that Bob Gibson was an exceptional pitcher, then we can let the facts speak for themselves.

            Graig Nettles couldn’t win the Gold Glove in 1971 or 1973, because Brooks Robinson had a death grip on the Gold Glove in that league at that time.   Brooks Robinson was a fantastic defensive third baseman—even then—and he was 36 years old by 1973.    He may not have been better than Nettles, but in any case he won the award.   Nettles won only two Gold Gloves, those coming in 1977 and 1978, after Brooksie hit 40.    That certainly slowed down Nettles’ acceptance as an all-time great third baseman. 

            Still, I believe that the basic, #1 reason that Graig Nettles has been left out of the Hall of Fame is simply that people are still hung up on batting average.    He was a .248 hitter, he was slow, he won only two Gold Gloves; people can’t see that as a great player—but I believe that he was.    He was more muscular than Brooks, bigger in the upper body, but he could do the things that Brooks Robinson could do.   He could field a scorching ground ball behind third base and throw the guy out.   He could leap and snare.   He played the game with a chip on his shoulder, projecting arrogance in victory and defiance in defeat.    When he was 39 years old and hit .228, his won-lost record was 13-10.    When he was 40 it was 17-9.   He was one of the greatest defensive third basemen ever, he was a very effective offensive player despite his low average, and he was good for a long, long time, from 1970 through 1985.    He was extremely consistent.  He was very unusual, very unique, and he was a Hall of Famer in my book.  

 

YEAR

Team

Age

HR

RBI

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

BW

BL

FW

FL

Won

Lost

WPct

Value

1967

Minn

22

0

0

.333

.667

.333

1.000

0

0

0

0

0

0

.854

0

1968

Minn

23

5

8

.224

.474

.298

.771

2

1

1

1

3

2

.561

3

1969

Minn

24

7

26

.222

.373

.319

.693

4

6

2

1

6

7

.449

5

1970

Cle

25

26

62

.235

.404

.336

.741

11

13

7

0

17

13

.579

20

1971

Cle

26

28

86

.261

.435

.350

.785

16

10

7

+1

23

9

.718

30

1972

Cle

27

17

70

.253

.395

.325

.720

14

10

7

1

21

11

.662

26

1973

NYA

28

22

81

.234

.386

.334

.720

13

12

9

1

22

12

.640

27

1974

NYA

29

22

75

.246

.403

.316

.718

15

10

7

2

22

12

.652

27

1975

NYA

30

21

91

.267

.430

.322

.753

15

10

8

1

23

11

.669

28

1976

NYA

31

32

93

.254

.475

.327

.802

18

7

8

1

27

8

.771

36

1977

NYA

32

37

107

.255

.496

.333

.829

17

8

6

2

23

11

.683

30

1978

NYA

33

27

93

.276

.460

.343

.803

18

8

7

2

24

10

.705

31

1979

NYA

34

20

73

.253

.401

.325

.726

12

11

5

3

17

14

.540

18

1980

NYA

35

16

45

.244

.435

.331

.766

8

6

3

2

11

8

.565

12

1981

NYA

36

15

46

.244

.398

.333

.731

10

6

5

1

14

7

.673

18

1982

NYA

37

18

55

.232

.402

.317

.719

9

10

3

3

12

12

.483

11

1983

NYA

38

20

75

.266

.446

.341

.787

13

7

4

3

16

10

.622

20

1984

SD

39

20

65

.228

.413

.329

.742

10

8

3

2

13

10

.555

14

1985

SD

40

15

61

.261

.420

.363

.784

12

6

4

3

17

9

.652

20

1986

SD

41

16

55

.218

.379

.300

.679

7

9

2

2

9

11

.441

8

1987

Atl

42

5

33

.209

.350

.294

.644

2

6

0

1

2

8

.237

0

1988

Mon

43

1

14

.172

.247

.240

.488

0

4

0

1

0

5

.057

0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

225

170

97

31

322

201

.615

382

 
 

COMMENTS (10 Comments, most recent shown first)

oldehippy
Well, having watched Puff for the eleven seasons he was in New York and being one of the thousands of fans who were upset, to put it mildly, that the greatest Yankee third baseman of all time was traded for Dennis Rasmussen. But Balls, his book with Golenback, sealed his fate. Oh well....great analysis but I didn't expect anything else from the Great One!
8:49 PM Oct 22nd
 
bearbyz
When I was comparing innings played I was talking about defensive innings at third base. Sorry I didn't make it clear the first time.
8:46 PM Oct 3rd
 
bearbyz
I agree Nettles was a great player and an even gerater fielder. Howeve, Buddy Bell being unable to replace him as a rookie isn't a reflection on there abilities. Managers are reluctent to replace solid players at a position (it was obvious that Nettles was more than solid) with a rookie. In 1969 Billy Martin moved Harmon Killebrew to third so he could play Rich Reese at first base. Nettles played mostly left field that year, when he did play. Frank Quilici and Rick Renick played more games and innings that Nettles. Cesar Tover played more games, but less innings that Nettles. Nettles definitely was the best fielder of the five even using 1969 statistics,but it didn't seem to help his playing time.
In fact other than a four game series against Seattle at the end of September after the Twins had clinched the last game Nettles play at third was June 22nd. Statistics came from retrosheet.
8:44 PM Oct 3rd
 
MarisFan61
I also fondly remember Bill's little piece about "sleeping through several World Series) that *3for3* cited.
I've stolen it and used variants of it for numerous retorts over the years on just about any subject. :-)

As a big fan of both Brooks and Graig, I'm glad their match was so close. And I appreciated Bill's great and praising write-up on Graig so much that I almost didn't notice that Graig lost anything there.

In the annual Abstracts, Bill had a couple of lines about Nettles where I never did get whether he was being positive, negative, or purposely cryptic. One was where the total write-up on Graig was, "Zero percent chance of 3000 hits......" :haha:
The other -- which certainly would have been a slam except if you know the writer feels basically positively about the player, was something like, "Graig Nettles played third base remarkably well for a man in his 40's."
Heck, I guess it was a slam anyway.

Thank you, Bill, for all this great stuff that we can't forget. Even if we aren't always sure we quite got it. :-)
7:15 PM Oct 3rd
 
izzy24
I still can't believe Buddy Bell has made it this far. Who would have thought he'd make it farther than Sal Bando, Ron Santo, Garry Gaetti, Ken Boyer, Scott Rolen? Apparently, I've just been underrating him.
7:13 PM Oct 3rd
 
nettles9
I never thought of Graig Nettles in terms of being a Hall of Famer, though I've have a friend or two who thinks he should be. Bill seems to agree with them. During his time of eligibility for the Hall, I didn't think of him being elected because I knew, I really, truly knew, he would never get in. I didn't want to be disappointed or angry or upset, so I decided to believe he wouldn't make it. I was right. This wasn't something I wanted to be right about. I would have been extremely happy to be wrong. That .248 batting average, itself, is a difficult thing for the voters to get around. I understood that... well, I resigned myself to that. There has been quite a few times over the years where I read that Nettles should be in the Hall. Bill has written very good things about Nettles, so I am not surprised about his thoughts. I had no faith in Graig Nettles being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame because I had little faith in the voters to recognize his true abilities. Here is the Hall Of Fame voting percentages for Nettles:

1994 BBWAA ( 8.3%)
1995 BBWAA ( 6.1%)
1996 BBWAA ( 7.9%)
1997 BBWAA ( 4.7%)

So it goes.

Thanks for a fun, informative third base tournament, Bill. The pieces about all the third baseman as part of this are great to read. Third base is my favorite position in baseball.

Graig Nettles was my favorite player at my favorite position. He's also my favorite player of all time.

Excelsior!

Nettles9
12:29 PM Oct 3rd
 
TJNawrocki
Nettles was at third base for the 1972 Indians when they also came up with Buddy Bell, who would go on to win five Gold Gloves at third in his career. They sent Bell to the outfield.
12:05 PM Oct 3rd
 
metsfan17
I am a Mets fan who hates the Yankees. Graig Nettles is the greatest 3rd baseman I ever saw. And he did it in an effortless manner. He was beyond a great defensive 3rd baseman. He made routine plays look easy and tough plays look easy. I never saw anybody who had more control of the position. Anybody who thinks he was a journeyman 3rd baseman obviously knows nothing about baseball except batting average.
10:52 AM Oct 3rd
 
ajmilner
Has Graig's reputation been undercut by his irreverence and sense of humor, I wonder? A lot of non-baseball fans recognize Yogi Berra only for his malaprops and assume he was just along for the ride in the 1950s Yankees dynasty, not the essential force behind it (ditto Casey Stengel). Nettles might be generally perceived on the level of contemporaries like Jay Johnstone, Bill Lee and Rick Dempsey -- *good* players always ready with a one-liner, but not immortals.
10:15 AM Oct 3rd
 
3for3
I still recall fondly part of the Nettles discussion involving the HOF, where a hypothetical fan wrote that Nettles was a journeyman 3d baseman. Bill's response was that anyone who thought that, obviously slept through a number of world series. In particular, game 3, when Nettles saved Guidry's bacon with a number of fine plays...
8:51 AM Oct 3rd
 
 
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