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The Traded Away All Star Teams

November 8, 2010

A week ago Monday a friend asked me a deceptively simple question, which was, "if the Royals had kept all the talent they have had, would they have won their division this year?"

            The direct answer to the question is "Yes, I suppose they would have."  They probably would have.  However, this is assuming that the Royals get to keep all of the players who have passed through their fingers one way or another, and, making that assumption, every team in baseball could have won the pennant this year, except possibly Baltimore.

Comparing the Royals to the other 29 teams based on the talent produced by their organization and/or talent "formerly owned" by the organization, the Royals are near the bottom of the barrel.   If you could pick all-star teams for each of the 30 teams based on players now owned or formerly owned by the team, the Royals would finish about 29th among the 30 teams. 

 

I.  Method

 

            I began with the Season Scores for each major league player in the year 2010.   From those scores, I ranked the top 200 hitters and pitchers in the majors in 2010, one through 200.  The #1 hitter was Miguel Cabrera, #2 was Albert Pujols, #3 was Joey Votto, #200 was Roger Bernandina.   The #1 pitcher was Roy Halladay, #2 was CC Sabathia, #3 was Wainwright, and #200 was somebody named Alex Sanabia of the Marlins.   There is, too.

            I then converted these lists into what we could call "Pennant Points" in this way.   For the hitters, I awarded 200 points to the Tigers because they had the #1 man (Cabrera), 199 points to the Cardinals because they had Pujols, etc.    For the pitchers, almost the same; I awarded 160 points to the Phillies for Halladay, 159 points to the Yankees for Sabathia, etc., only when I got down to 40 points I awarded two 40s, two 39s, two 38s, two 37s, etc., so that the pitchers numbers 199 and 200 each got one point.

            That’s right; I used one system of vaguely arbitrary points to create a second system of vaguely arbitrary points.  If you were going to do that, you may be wondering, why not just use the first system of vaguely arbitrary points (Season Scores)?

            The ratios are wrong for this purpose.  Cabrera, the #1 hitter in baseball in 2010, had a Season Score of 471.   Roger Bernadina had a season score of 92.   It’s a 5-to-1 ratio.   Possessing the very best hitters, the Cabreras and Pujolses and Vottoes, is much more than five times as important as possessing the Roger Bernandinas and Blake DeWitts and Chris Coglans.   Those guys, if you lose one of them, you’ll replace him with another.   You don’t replace Miguel Cabrera.   The pennant is in substantial part determined by who has the irreplaceable players.

            I used 160 points as the cap for pitchers because I didn’t want the Pennant Points to be 50% pitching.  This makes a system in which about 60% of the Pennant Points are to hitters and position players, 40% to pitchers (actually .595-.405).   It’s a crude but efficient way to do talent accounting.

 

II.  Who Had the Most Talent in 2010?

 

            The best teams, of course.   This is the talent credited to each of the 30 major league teams in 2010, by this system:

 

Team

Count

Total

 

Team

Count

Total

 

Team

Count

Total

Yankees

16

1765

 

White Sox

16

1208

 

Diamondbacks

12

1023

Twins

18

1750

 

Blue Jays

14

1175

 

Padres

14

1009

Giants

18

1582

 

Mets

11

1162

 

A's

14

885

Red Sox

17

1566

 

Tigers

16

1138

 

Astros

13

863

Phillies

16

1547

 

Cardinals

9

1127

 

Nationals

11

746

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Braves

17

1502

 

Angels

11

1114

 

Royals

10

695

Rangers

14

1480

 

Cubs

15

1088

 

Orioles

11

675

Reds

16

1356

 

Marlins

13

1086

 

Pirates

9

536

Rays

14

1311

 

Dodgers

13

1064

 

Indians

7

518

Brewers

10

1272

 

Rockies

17

1048

 

Mariners

8

509

 

            There are nine teams in the majors which had 1300 or more points.   Eight of them were the teams that made the playoffs; the other was the Red Sox.    The "16" under the "Count" heading means that the Yankees had 16 players (10 hitters and 6 pitchers) who were good enough to qualify for Pennant Points.   The Twins had 18; the Giants had 18.

            There is not an absolute, one-to-one relationship between Pennant Points and regular-season finish, but.. .pretty close.    All of the post-season teams make the top-9 list; the Mariners, Indians, Pirates, Orioles and Royals bring up the rear as they should.   This list is just intended to re-assure you that our accounting system, arbitrary as it may seem, does in fact track with the performance of the teams.

 

III.  Who Has Produced the Most Talent?

            The number one talent producers in the major leagues, in terms of 2010 talent produced, would be the Atlanta Braves.

 

Team

Count

Total

Braves

19

1682

Rays

15

1656

Mariners

17

1652

Trolley Dodgers

19

1617

Bronx Bombers

18

1500

 

 

 

Blue Jays

15

1344

Mets

14

1332

Astros

15

1297

Phillies

15

1296

Carmine Hose

15

1292

 

 

 

Diamondbacks

15

1291

Pirates

14

1244

Fish

14

1225

Athletics

17

1221

Twinkies

13

1185

 

 

 

Rangers

13

1153

Wigwam

13

1149

LaRussa Men

11

1103

Giants

13

1072

Tigers

14

990

 

 

 

Rockies

12

976

Cubs

13

917

Reds

11

894

Pale Hose

9

892

Brewers

8

888

 

 

 

Angels

11

817

Nationals

12

767

Royals

7

463

Padres

9

445

Orioles

9

440

 

            So here we begin to see the problem with saying that the Royals would have won the pennant if they had held on to all of their talent.   Only 7 of the 400 players in the major leagues who were good enough to qualify for this study entered baseball in the Royals system:  Billy Butler (168 Pennant Points), Johnny Damon (102), Zack Greinke (73), David DeJesus (65), Mike Aviles (36), Mark Ellis (18), and Luke Hochevar (1).   The second-best player produced by the system for the 2010 season is an old guy who came up fifteen years ago and is half the player he used to be.   It’s a problem.

            The Atlanta Braves, on the other hand, have produced 19 players who were of contributing quality in 2010:   Kelly Johnson (165), Adam Wainwright (158), Martin Prado (157), Jason Heyward (154),  Adam LaRoche (145), Brian McCann (130), Neftali Feliz (115), Rafael Furcal (113), Tommy Hansen (103), Garrett Jones (82), Wilson Betemit (73), Bruce Chen (65), Chipper Jones (60), Andruw Jones (45), Kris Medlen (34), Matt Belisle (29), Kyle Davies (28), Jonny Venters (20), and Jeff Francoeur (6).    They’ve let a couple of their really good ones get away (Kelly Johnson and Adam Wainwright), but, because the organization has been so productive of talent, they’re still in good shape.

 

IV.  Talent Gainers and Talent Losers

            Contrasting the talent produced by each organization with the talent now possessed:

Team

Produced

Possessed

GAIN

 

Team

Produced

Possessed

LOSS

Minnesota

1185

1750

565

 

Washington

767

746

-21

San Diego

445

1009

564

 

Florida

1225

1086

-139

San Francisco

1072

1582

510

 

Toronto

1344

1175

-169

Cincinnati

894

1356

462

 

New York Mets

1332

1162

-170

Milwaukee

888

1272

384

 

Atlanta

1682

1502

-180

Texas

1153

1480

327

 

Arizona

1291

1023

-268

White Sox

892

1208

316

 

Oakland

1221

885

-336

Anaheim

817

1114

297

 

Tampa Bay

1656

1311

-345

Boston

1292

1566

274

 

Houston

1297

863

-434

Yankees

1500

1765

265

 

Dodgers

1617

1064

-553

Philadelphia

1296

1547

251

 

Cleveland

1149

518

-631

Baltimore

440

675

235

 

Pittsburgh

1244

536

-708

Kansas City

463

695

232

 

Seattle

1652

509

-1143

Chicago Cubs

917

1088

171

 

 

 

 

 

Detroit

990

1138

148

 

 

 

 

 

Colorado

976

1048

72

 

 

 

 

 

St. Louis

1103

1127

24

 

 

 

 

 

 

            The team that has really lost a lot of talent, it turns out, is not Kansas City but Seattle.  . .Seattle, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and the Dodgers, but Seattle is number one on the list.    An All-Star team of players originally signed by Seattle would be

 

Pos

Player

2010 Team

Pennant Points

 

 

 

 

C

Moore or Johnson

Mariners

0

1B

Ibanez,Raul

Phillies

138

2B

Lopez, Jose

Mariners

0

3B

Rodriguez,Alex

Yankees

171

SS

Betancourt,Yuniesky

Royals

41

LF

Suzuki,Ichiro

Mariners

112

CF

Jones,Adam

Orioles

106

LF

Choo,Shin-Soo

Indians

179

DH

Ortiz,David

Red Sox

180

SP

Hernandez,Felix

Mariners

153

SP

Lowe,Derek

Braves

111

SP

Pineiro,Joel

Angels

64

SP

Morrow,Brandon

Toronto

51

SP

Fister,Doug

Mariners

25

RA

Soriano,Rafael

Rays

142

St Up

Putz,J.J.

White Sox

12

St Up

Fuentes,Brian

Angels/Twins

58

LR

Thornton,Matt

White Sox

22

LM

Franklin,Ryan

Cardinals

87

 

            This team would very easily have won the American League West, with a strong lineup (Ichiro, Adam Jones, Shin-Soo Choo, A-Rod, David Ortiz) and dominant pitching.   Pittsburgh probably wouldn’t have enough pitching to win, but they would have a good lineup and would be close:

 

Pos

Player

2010 Team

Pennant Points

 

 

 

 

C

Doumit,Ryan

Pirates

7

1B

Alvarez,Pedro

Pirates

63

2B

Walker,Neil

Pirates

109

3B

Ramirez,Aramis

Cubs

87

SS

Keppinger,Jeff

Astros

80

LF

Davis,Rajai

Athletics

71

RF

McCutchen,Andrew

Pirates

152

RF

Guillen,Jose

Royals/Giants

66

OF

Bautista,Jose

Blue Jays

196

SP

Arroyo,Bronson

Reds

130

SP

Maholm,Paul

Pirates

30

SP

Gorzelanny,Tom

Cubs

37

RP

Capps,Matt

Twins

140

RP

Nunez,Leo

Marlins

76

 

            The Royals?   Pssst.  (Dismissive hiss.)   The Royals haven’t produced enough talent to put together a team, let alone a contending team.

 

V.  Talent Taken and Held

            The team which has developed and retained the most talent in the majors is Tampa Bay.   The team which has developed and retained the least is Cleveland:

 

TALENT TAKEN AND HELD

Team

Count

Pennant Points

Tampa Bay

8

900

Minnesota

9

880

Milwaukee

5

824

New York Mets

7

810

New York Yankees

7

808

San Francisco

8

805

Los Angeles

8

714

Boston

8

700

Cincinnati

8

674

Atlanta

7

658

Philadelphia

6

601

Colorado

8

587

Toronto

6

546

Chicago Cubs

8

536

Anaheim

4

466

St. Louis

4

464

Florida

7

449

Texas

4

404

Detroit

6

384

Arizona

5

368

Pittsburgh

5

361

Houston

4

357

Kansas City

5

343

Oakland

5

307

Seattle

3

290

San Diego

5

278

Washington

6

272

Baltimore

6

233

Chicago White Sox

2

198

Cleveland

2

110

 

            There’s a really interesting contrast between those two organizations, on some level; this isn’t the place to get into it.   But the problems confronted by the Cleveland organization post-2007 are the very problems that loom ahead of the Tampa Bay Rays.   I would bet on the Rays to handle them better, but in any case, they couldn’t handle them much worse.

            Of the 200 best pitchers in baseball, 82 are still with their original teams.   Of the 200 best position players, 83 are still with their original teams.  In both cases the players who are still with their first team are of slightly higher quality than those who are not, so 45% of major league talent (41% of players) are still with the team that first signed them. 

 

VI.  Brokered Talent

 

            Talent can be sorted into four categories:

 

            Talent developed and held

            Talent developed and lost

            Talent acquired

            Brokered Talent

 

            The one we haven’t dealt with yet is brokered talent—teams which are in the history of some player, but neither as the player’s original team nor as his current team.   It is on this basis that teams like the Royals can claim that they could have won the pennant if they had held on to all of "their" talent.  This is an accounting of the brokered talent in the majors in 2010:

 

Team

Ct

Pts

 

Team

Ct

Pts

 

Team

Ct

Pts

 

Team

Ct

Pts

 

Team

Ct

Pts

Bos

20

1294

 

LA

13

1090

 

Mets

13

873

 

NY

9

745

 

Ana

6

662

Phil

14

1286

 

KC

13

997

 

Fla

12

862

 

Sea

11

735

 

Atl

7

593

Oak

13

1251

 

Mil

11

985

 

Min

11

837

 

Cle

13

722

 

Pitt

9

463

Tex

15

1186

 

CWS

13

957

 

Hous

10

824

 

Tor

9

714

 

StL

7

435

Cin

14

1176

 

Cubs

10

929

 

TB

12

819

 

Det

9

690

 

Col

8

419

Wash

15

1115

 

Ariz

12

907

 

SD

14

801

 

Bal

10

668

 

SF

3

184

 

            The Red Sox have acquired but let go 20 players of quality, 12 of them pitchers:  David Aardsma, Bronson Arroyo, Jason Bay, Craig Breslow, Bruce Chen, Coco Crisp, Johnny Damon,

Jorge de la Rosa, Alex Gonzalez, Eric Hinske, Adam LaRoche, Derek Lowe, Brandon Lyon,

Jamie Moyer, Chris Narveson, Carlos Pena, Joel Pineiro, Manny Ramirez, Brad Thomas and Billy Wagner.

 

VII.  Total Talent Available

            If we add together the talent produced by the organization, the talent acquired and held by the organization, and the brokered talent, we get "Total Talent Available".   The team with the most talent "available" to them has been the Philadelphia Phillies:

 

Team

Count

Points

 

Team

Count

Points

 

Team

Count

Points

Philadelphia

39

3528

 

Arizona

34

2853

 

Milwaukee

24

2321

Boston

43

3452

 

Cincinnati

33

2752

 

Cleveland

31

2279

Texas

38

3415

 

Florida

32

2724

 

St. Louis

23

2201

Yankees

36

3202

 

Toronto

32

2687

 

Angels

24

2127

Atlanta

36

3119

 

Houston

34

2627

 

San Francisco

26

2033

Dodgers

37

3057

 

Seattle

33

2606

 

San Diego

32

1977

Oakland

39

3050

 

Mets

31

2557

 

Pittsburgh

27

1882

Minnesota

33

2892

 

Detroit

33

2434

 

Colorado

29

1856

Tampa Bay

33

2886

 

Cubs

30

2398

 

Kansas City

25

1812

White Sox

36

2859

 

Washington

32

2356

 

Baltimore

24

1550

 

            The Royals, then, have had enough talent passing through their hands to have built a championship team.  You make the playoffs somewhere around 1300 points.  The Royals have had 1800.  Still, it’s not really a fair expectation of a team that they would hold on to all of the talent that they could possibly have had.  A criticism which could apply to anyone is not a real criticism; it’s just like saying that Jimmy Carter didn’t solve all of the nation’s problems or that Chris Wallace didn’t ask all of the tough questions.   Realistically, the Royals’ problem is not that they have let talent get away; their problem is that have not had enough talent to work with.   Their farm system has not developed talent, and they (of course) do not have the money to attract talent.   You have to do one or the other, or you never really get to the issue of holding on to the talent you have.

            Oh. . .holding on to the talent you have.    This chart tracks the percentage of talent available that has been retained by each team.   These percentages are derived from dividing each team’s 2010 talent—the first chart in this article—by the numbers above, the total talent available to the organization:

 

Team

Talent Retention %

Team

TR %

 

Team

TR %

San Francisco

78%

 

Detroit

47%

 

Florida

40%

Minnesota

61%

 

New York Mets

45%

 

Kansas City

38%

Colorado

56%

 

Tampa Bay

45%

 

Arizona

36%

New York

55%

 

Cubs

45%

 

Los Angeles

35%

Milwaukee

55%

 

Boston

45%

 

Houston

33%

Anaheim

52%

 

Philadelphia

44%

 

Washington

32%

St. Louis

51%

 

Toronto

44%

 

Oakland

29%

San Diego

51%

 

Baltimore

44%

 

Pittsburgh

28%

Cincinnati

49%

 

Texas

43%

 

Cleveland

23%

Atlanta

48%

 

White Sox

42%

 

Seattle

20%

 

            Stunning, isn’t it?   The World Championship San Francisco Giants still have on their roster 78% of the talent that has passed through it.   Nobody else is in the same orbit.   The Giants are 2.9 Standard Deviations above the norm here.   That’s why they won.   They have done an exceptional job of choosing among the players available to them.

            Of course, this is judgment—and it’s economics.   And time.   The Mariners are at the bottom of this list, in part, because they produced a ton of talent a long, long time ago (Derek Lowe, David Ortiz, Alex Rodriguez, Raul Ibanez), and, inevitably, most of that gets away from you over time. 

            But it’s judgment, and it’s economics.   Teams like Pittsburgh and Cleveland have lost talent because they can’t come up with the money to retain it.  

            There is an important series of questions here that I’m not going to get to:

            a)  What is the role of producing talent in winning pennants?

            b)  What is the role of making good trades in winning pennants?

            c)  What is the relationship between talent produced and talent possessed?

            You could get to those questions by methods like those I have used here, but you’d have to study more than one season.    You’d have to study at least ten seasons worth of teams to have enough data to take on those questions.   There’s obviously some correlation between producing talent and winning games, but beyond that, let’s let it go.

 

            Anyway, final question.  If each team could make an All-Star team of all the talent they have had, who would win?

            The Phillies.   Cliff Lee would be their sixth starter, Bruce Chen their eighth, Gavin Floyd their tenth:

 

Position

Player

Team

Points

 

 

 

 

C

Ruiz,Carlos

Phillies

95

1B

Howard,Ryan

Phillies

174

2B

Utley,Chase

Phillies

132

3B

Rolen,Scott

Reds

149

SS

Rollins, Jimmy

Phillies

0

LF

Abreu, Bobby

Angels

141

CF

Victorino,Shane

Phillies

129

RF

Werth,Jayson

Phillies

191

 

 

 

 

SP

Halladay,Roy

Phillies

160

SP

Myers,Brett

Houston

147

SP

Gonzalez,Gio

Oakland

139

SP

Hamels,Cole

Phillies

129

SP

Oswalt,Roy

Phillies

128

 

 

 

 

Closer

Wagner,Billy

Atlanta

148

Bullpen

Franklin,Ryan

St. Louis

87

Bullpen

Lidge,Brad

Phillies

50

Bullpen

Figueroa,Nelson

Houston

31

Bullpen

Madson,Ryan

Phillies

23

Bullpen

Lopez,Rodrigo

Arizona

18

Bullpen

Simon,Alfredo

Baltimore

17

Bullpen

Contreras,Jose

Phillies

8

 

 

 

 

Bench

Thome, Jim

Twins

142

Bench

Ibanez,Raul

Phillies

138

Bench

Byrd,Marlon

Cubs

131

Bench

Burrell,Pat

Giants

83

Bench

Polanco,Placido

Phillies

78

Bench

Bourn,Michael

Astros

50

Bench

Branyan, Russell

2 Teams

72

 

 

 

 

Pitching

Lee,Cliff

Texax

126

Depth

Wolf,Randy

Milwaukee

104

Pitching

Chen,Bruce

Kansas C

65

Depth

Garcia,Freddy

White Sox

63

Pitching

Floyd,Gavin

White Sox

62

Depth

Blanton,Joe

Phillies

56

Pitching

Kendrick,Kyle

Phillies

48

Depth

Silva,Carlos

Cubs

39

Pitching

Happ,J.A.

Houston

17

Depth

Padilla,Vicente

Dodgers

12

Pitching

Moyer,Jamie

Phillies

8

 
 

COMMENTS (15 Comments, most recent shown first)

ventboys
Dave, that's stretching it a bit, isn't it? Lee is obviously a better pitcher than Myers and Gio, who had career years while Lee had a couple of injuries; injuries that he has fully recovered from. I can see the salary thing, though. Lee has been tossed around the league for a couple of years, in large part because everyone is afraid of his next contract. I wonder if anyone would make that trade. Lee for Myers, or Lee for Gio, straight up.
12:14 AM Nov 11th
 
DaveFleming
I'd check the numbers on that, Tom Bell. Cliff Lee is very good, but you'd be better off with Meyers and Gio Gonz.

Lee had a 4.3 WAR this year. But Meyers had a 4.6 WAR, and Gio was at 4.3. Considering cost and age, one could argue that EITHER pitcher is probably a better bet than Cliff Lee going forward. But both of them? It isn't even close.
11:29 PM Nov 9th
 
glkanter
At least one of these charts, and Bill's comment, show why *this* Indians fan is so frustrated.

Somehow, it comes down to an organization's respect for the scarcity of talent vis a vis winning. The Indians don't have it. Texas, for example, with Nolan Ryan, presumably does.
4:04 PM Nov 9th
 
barronmo
This method might also work for evaluating drafts: how much talent was captured by a team based on what was available at their position.
10:39 AM Nov 9th
 
barronmo
Regarding the Giants, I would guess the WS winner usually would have high % of talent retained since the guys on the roster had good enough years to win it. Perhaps 3-5 year average would correct for this? Good article, interesting take on your 'talent is everywhere' theme.
10:32 AM Nov 9th
 
bjames
If you're hung up on issues at that level, you've missed the point.
11:43 PM Nov 8th
 
tbell
I'll take Cliff Lee over Brett Myers and Gio Gonzalez.

As would Win Shares and Loss Shares, I'd reckon.


6:34 PM Nov 8th
 
evanecurb
You didn't have to mention me by name; you could have just left it at "1-200."

--- Roger Bernadina.

Next year, I am committed to cracking the top 185.
5:46 PM Nov 8th
 
bjames
And perhaps Anibal Sanchez.
5:42 PM Nov 8th
 
bjames
"Asdrubal",by the way, was a name used by several Carthaginian generals. Hannibal had both a brother and a brother-in-law named "Asdrubal" (actually, usually "Hasdrubal".) He goes on an All-Star team with Scipio Spinks.
5:41 PM Nov 8th
 
jdw
Interesting piece. The gap down to the Royals/Padres/O's at the bottom is big. Are these franchises just trainwrecks in drafting, signing and/or developing talent?

How much would the teams move around if it were studied over a few years? In a sense, did Royals/Pads/O's developed talent just hit the wall (or have off years), or have the been poor for years?
5:38 PM Nov 8th
 
meandean
Upon reading more carefully, I suppose those two were not top 200 guys in baseball in 2010. Guess I couldn't argue much with that.
1:27 PM Nov 8th
 
meandean
And wait, I just realized... Lowe is there... where is Varitek? :)
1:22 PM Nov 8th
 
meandean
Given that Ibanez is at 1B for Seattle, I'm guessing that you're willing to have some position flexibility here, in which case Asdrubal Cabrera could start alongside him at 2B...
1:21 PM Nov 8th
 
rpriske
One thing I think is clear but not mentioned is that it is literally impossible to say a team coudl hold all the talent that came through because there are times when names on the list were acquired by trading away other names on the list.

Obvious, I would think, but worth saying.
9:19 AM Nov 8th
 
 
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