Remember me

Runs Saved Against Zero Afterthoughts

August 19, 2011
 
            Yesterday I introduced a method to estimate the number of Runs Saved by a shortstop, as opposed to a zero-value defensive player.   I believe there is merit in the method.   I believe that it reliably identifies the best defensive players, not 100% of the time, and it creates a context in which to compare and contrast offensive and defensive values.    I think it is worth having.
            However, there were choices to be made in constructing that system, and it’s not absolutely clear that all of the choices I made were the right ones.   The number of runs that we are estimating a defender to save seems unrealistically low.    It is low compared to other types of defensive analysis, and it is low compared to intuitive observation.    Anyone can look at a good defensive shortstop, playing short, and realize that the difference between him and a complete oaf at shortstop must be more than 30 or 40 runs a year.
            What we are calling the zero-point in this analysis is not truly the zero point.   This is true for two reasons.   First, one cannot score fewer runs in a ballgame or in a season than zero.   If my wife and sons and I were to play against a major league baseball team, we might score zero runs in a season, but we could not score fewer than zero—thus, could not miss the league average by more than 750 runs, assuming that 750 runs is the average.
            We could and would, however, allow more than 1500 runs, or 750 more than average. 1500 runs allowed (2Lg, or twice the league norm) is not a true zero-point; it is merely a point which is equidistant from true zero on the opposite end of the scale.
            Also, if a team scored zero runs in a season and allowed 750, their winning percentage would be zero, but if they scored 750 and allowed 1500, it would not be zero.   It would be about .200. In order to have no expectation of ever winning a game, you would have to allow an infinite number of runs.
            Of course one cannot work very well with infinite numbers, but one could make the system more realistic by moving the theoretical zero-point further away from the league norm.   Let us suppose that the theoretical zero point was not 2Lg, but 3Lg (three times the league norm.)   That would be treating a .100 winning percentage as .000, rather than treating .200 as .000, a smaller distortion.   That system would portray the defenders on a team as preventing 1500 runs, if the league norm was 750 runs scored, rather than preventing 750 runs (including those prevented by the pitcher.)
In the system as I outlined it, if one pitcher allows 80 runs and a teammate pitches the same number of innings and allows 60 runs, this system doesn’t show a 20-run difference between them, since it will credit part of the separation to the fielders.   If we changed the zero point to 3Lg, then we could restore the pitchers to full credit for runs saved, and still greatly increase the percentage of success that was credited to the defensive players.    This would increase the runs saved against zero estimate for Ozzie Smith in a typical season from about 35-40 to something more than 100.   
            This would imply that the runs saved were much greater than the runs allowed, but we can still make offense equal defense by assigning less Win Value to one run saved than to one run scored.   This is realistic.   If a team is average defensively, if they allow 750 runs, then to go from 400 runs scored to 500 increases their expected wins by 14.   But if a team is average offensively—that is, if the team scores 750 runs--then to go from 1100 runs allowed down to 1000, although it is a parallel step on the other side of the spectrum, increases their expected wins by less than 7.   One run scored is more valuable than one run saved, since runs scored rise from zero and runs saved fall from an infinite sky.
 
            But there are problems with that theory, too, among those that that theory reduces the Win Value of pitchers so low that teams appear to be behaving very irrationally in terms of the resources that they devote to pitching—resources being roster space, salary costs, and player development costs.
            We could solve these problems by going back to a primitive assertion: baseball is 75% pitching.   The argument isn’t as irrational as I once argued that it is.   What is meant by saying that baseball is 75% pitching is this.
Offense is bounded by zero; a team cannot score fewer than zero runs, therefore wins result from scoring more runs than zero.
            Defense, on the other hand, is unbounded; a team can allow any number of runs—let us say four times the league average.    From a defensive standpoint, wins result from allowing fewer runs than four times the league average. Therefore, the number of runs that must be prevented to win the pennant is much larger than the number of runs that must be scored.
            But there are problems with that theory, too.   If this theory were meaningfully true in major league baseball, then the standard deviation of runs allowed would have to be higher than the standard deviation of runs scored, which is not true.     The theory could be true in a theoretical universe involving players at widely different skill levels, but irrelevant in a real universe in which only players comparable in skill level are competing with one another.
            All mathematical models represent the baseball universe as being more simple than it actually is.   This is a limitation that we live with.  Because the mathematical models are always simplifications, they are always untrue if looked at from one angle or another.
 
 

COMMENTS (14 Comments, most recent shown first)

Chihuahua332
It's nice of Castro to read these posts and to volunteer to test the theories. I guess that the rest of the team missed the memo.
4:19 PM Aug 23rd
 
glkanter
C-332 - This would seem to support your recent "Cubs theory of defense":

espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6884828/chicago-cubs-manager-mike-quade-was-disappointed-starlin-castro-actions-sunday
10:06 AM Aug 23rd
 
Chihuahua332
That is understood Charles. The point of our conversation is about determining what the theoretical 'zero point' is when defense is non-existent. Bill is using 2Lg as the expected runs allowed with a minimally effective defense. It makes sense for the calculations and feels reasonable so I am not arguing against his logic.
Bill mentions that theoretically there is no upper bound for runs allowed which makes for impractical calculations. My point is that for the purpose of exploring the upper bounds of runs allowed, strikeouts give you a certain frequency of outs which are not dependent on the defense in any way (other than the catcher existing to receive the pitches). Strikeouts bring the upper bound away from infinity when isolating defensive contributions.
This is a theoretical discussion and I'm not sure how much value this line of thinking could have in the evaluation of defense in run prevention. It does highlight some interesting questions such as:

- How does the efficiency of a team's defense impact the value of strikeouts by that team's pitchers?
- How significantly does a high strikeout rate by a pitcher lessen the burden on the defense?
8:15 AM Aug 22nd
 
CharlesSaeger
Bill isn't talking about the split between pitching and fielding, he's talking about the maximum number of runs a team can give up, and a strikeout does no more to bound that than any other out.
7:03 AM Aug 22nd
 
glkanter
Chihuahua332 for the win!
12:05 PM Aug 21st
 
Chihuahua332
glkanter

Please see the first paragraph of my original post. Probably the better way to set up the scenario is where the defense is there until the moment that the bat hits the ball at which point they disappear. I believe that this is what has actually happened to the Cubs over the past 100 years.
10:43 AM Aug 21st
 
glkanter
Chihuahua332, it's all rhetorical, anyways. But:
* A walk/hbp would score each time with no fielders
and
* Every strikeout would fail to be caught by the catcher

Which takes us back to infinity, no?
8:45 PM Aug 20th
 
Chihuahua332
Glkanter,

I see your point but isn't the ineffectual fielder concept where the 2Lg vs. 3Lg vs. 4Lg debate springs up? When you are talking about the infinite upper bound for runs allowed, that would require that there is nothing there to create outs. My comment is based on that theoretical absurdity where strikeouts are the only way to create outs. Walks and HBPs would still put a runner on first and every ball in play would be a HR. Remember, I'm assuming that there are no fielders. Even the pitcher disappears once the ball is in play.
9:32 AM Aug 20th
 
glkanter
I agree with Chihuahua332 regarding strikeouts forming the boundary of outs and runs.

I disagree that every ball in play is like a HR. I think Bill was describing 8 (7?) ineffectual fielders, rather than 8 (7?) non-existent fielders. I figure most anyone can eventually pick up a rolling ball in the outfield and throw it back into the infield. Or are we describing fielders bereft of typical physical capabilities?
5:36 AM Aug 20th
 
Chihuahua332
Regarding the upper bounds for runs scored if there was no defense, it seems to me that strikeouts is the key to this number not being infinite. The reality is that pitchers create outs without the defense being involved. Yes, you need a catcher and, yes, batters would simply swing to put the ball in play if there was no defense at all but you get the point.

In the case of the 88 Dodgers, their pitchers struck out 1029 of the 6050 batters that they faced (17%). I am at work right now so I can't go through the math but it would be a fairly simple matter to get an expected run total if the defense didn't exist. Basically, what would be the expected runs per 27 outs if strikeouts were the only outs and every ball put into play was the same as a home run? Remember, with no defense a batter would be able to circle the bases at their leisure once the ball is in play effectively making every ball in play the same as a home run.
2:44 PM Aug 19th
 
CharlesSaeger
When I use the weights below on the shortstops listed, Ozzie goes from 30 runs/1000 innings to 33, while Frank Taveras goes from 13 to 9, so the gap between grows from 17 to 24. If I go to 1458 innings (a whole season), Ozzie is 49, Frank Who is 13, so Smith is 36 runs/year over the lowest regular shortstop.​
11:52 AM Aug 19th
 
CharlesSaeger
More practically, a reason for the lower gaps might be the low weights for each event. A quarter of a run for an error is about half the actual run-value of an error, once you adjust for about a sixth of all shortstop errors just advance a runner. For assists, you can't just use the standard linear weights run values, since you don't really know if there was a hit saved or not, but you can go up to about 0.16 to 0.20, which is about a third of the value of a single, to handle the uncertainty issue. Putouts are about right, as are double plays, though both could creep up a tad; I would have putouts at 0.05, assists at 0.20, errors at 0.50 and double plays at 0.13 (a shortstop or second baseman gets 40% of a double play's value, the third baseman would get the last 20% -- use double plays by first basemen only to get rid of the odd one with outfielders or catchers).
11:00 AM Aug 19th
 
CharlesSaeger
Defense is not unbounded. There *IS* an absolute limit of the number of runs a team can allow: batters faced. While of course games are to 27 outs, not however many batters, it's not like there's no bounds at all.
10:36 AM Aug 19th
 
Trailbzr
As Bill pointed out in the Historical, the traditional defensive statistics of bad teams don't look much different from those of good teams, because both are constrained to add up to 27 outs/game, regardless of how many hits, walks and homers are going on that don't end up in the defensive stats.

If a team lacked a shortstop, and put a uniform on a mannequin to play there, and neither team did else anything any differently (except try to throw the ball to the mannequin), would the other individual defensive stats look like normal, except inflated by the removal of shortstop plays? At first blush, it seems they should, although I may be overlooking something. If you also replace the left fielder with a mannequin, the other player's stats inflate more, etc. But replacing ONE zero-performing player is not 1/9th of replacing the whole defense with zero-performers (or the James family).

This is not to imply that the zero-base for defense is just the mirror image of scoring runs. But it does seem that the base could be estimated through assuming an alternate result for each play contributed.
10:31 AM Aug 19th
 
 
©2024 Be Jolly, Inc. All Rights Reserved.|Powered by Sports Info Solutions|Terms & Conditions|Privacy Policy