Summarizing the arguments for and against Gil Hodges as a Hall of Fame candidate, John-Q listed this as number 2 in the "for" column, and number 5 in the rebuttal section:

2-He was the best First basemen of the 1950’s.

#5 He benefitted from a weak first basemen group in the 1950’s.

          I was taken by that thought, and I got to wondering whether that was true.   Is that a valid and meaningful argument, to begin with, and WERE the first basemen of the 1950s a weak group?  

          I used Win Shares during the calendar decade to choose the teams.  The most Win Shares that any player has ever had in one calendar decade is 421, by Honus Wagner in the years 1900 to 1909.  He is followed by Babe Ruth, 1920s, Kid Nichols, 1890s, Ty Cobb, 1910s, Walter Johnson, 1910s, Rogers Hornsby, 1920s, Tris Speaker, 1910s, Tim Keefe, 1880s, and, rounding out the top 10, Barry Bonds, 1990s. 

          Normally, in this exercise, I would use some discretion in placing players on the team.   If a decade has two great center fielders and no particularly good left fielder, I would move one of the center fielders to left to make the team, or if a player was more of a shortstop than a second baseman but played both, I would feel free to put him at whichever position made for a better team.  That doesn’t work in this particular context, however, because this is being set of as a test of historic stature, and that might lead to a placement on the team that was disadvantageous to. . .well, Gil Hodges or some equally deserving candidate.   If Player X played primarily third during the decade and had more Win Shares during the decade than any other player who played primarily third base, then we HAVE to place Player X at third base in this exercise, whether or not this creates the best possible team.   I don’t see that that’s a negotiable approach; I think it absolutely has to be done that way, even though sometimes this leads to undesirable choices.

          This creates a "double-rigidity" in the teams selected.  The system is rigid in that a decade HAS to run from a zero to a nine, even if the player who SHOULD be there, the player that you or I or anyone else would intuitively select as the best whatever of the whenever, even if he had his best years from 1967 to 1976.   The system works 70, 80% of the time, but it creates some completely absurd answers for us once in a while.  To give you the worst example of an absurd answer, the system picks Willie Mays as the fourth best center fielder of the 1950s.  He barely misses ranking fifth.  

          The reason this happens is that there were five Hall of Fame center fielders in the 1950s (Mantle, Ashburn, Snider, Doby and Mays).   Mays missed the 1950 and 1953 seasons entirely, and almost all of the 1952 season.  Because of that, those three have far more playing time in the 1950s than Mays does, so they have more Win Shares.  You could avoid some of those problems by using WAR, but you would just create other problems of the same nature somewhere else. 

          So this is not about choosing All Decade teams; this is about choosing All Decade teams by a rigid and highly organized process.  Anyway, these are the Decade All Star teams by this method, up through the 1940s:

1880s

Catcher—Buck Ewing (158)

First Base—Roger Connor (234)

Second Base—Hardy Richardson (183)

Third Base—Ned Williamson (148)

Shortstop—Monte Ward (243)

Left Field—Harry Stovey (199)

Center Field—George Gore (194)

Right Field—King Kelly (212)

Starting Pitchers—

Tim Keefe (356)

Old Hoss Radbourn (348)

Mickey Welch (332)

Pud Galvin (306)

          Others with 200 or more Win Shares during the decade:  first basemen Dan Brouthers (219) and Cap Anson (216), pitchers Jim McCormick (295), Tony Mullane (286), Jim Whitney (274), John Clarkson (259), Guy Hecker (254), Charlie Buffinton (228), and Ed Morris (201), and pitcher/outfielders Bob Caruthers (264) and Dave Foutz (218). 

1890s

Catcher—Duke Farrell (137)

First Base—Jake Beckley (167)

Second Base—Cupid Childs (220)

Third Base—George Davis (214)

Shortstop—Bill Dahlen (206)

Left Field—Ed Delahanty (254)

Center Field—Billy Hamilton (271)

Right Field—Mike Tiernan (185)

Starting Pitchers—

Kid Nichols (390)

Cy Young (331)

Amos Rusie (283)

Jake Stivetts (264)

          Others with 200 or more:  shortstop Herman Long (204), left fielders Hugh Duffy (251) and Jesse Burkett (232), center fielder George Van Haltren (233), pitchers Bill Hutchinson (204), Ted Breitenstein (202) and pitcher/second baseman Kid Gleason (202)

1900s

Catcher—Roger Bresnahan (169)

First Base—Frank Chance (206)

Second Base—Nap Lajoie (296)

Third Base—Bill Bradley (181)

Shortstop—Honus Wagner (421)

Left Field—Fred Clarke (247)

Center Field—Roy Thomas (230)

Right Field—Sam Crawford (264)

Starting Pitchers—

Cy Young (289)

Christy Mathewson (275)

Joe McGinnity (234)

Rube Waddell (231)

          Others over 200:  shortstop Bobby Wallace (202), left fielders Jimmy Sheckard (224), Fielder Jones (223), Tommy Leach (215) and Topsy Hartsel (209), center fielder Ginger Beaumont (202), right fielder Elmer Flick (239), and pitchers Vic Willis (222), Eddie Plank (218) and Jack Chesbro (203).

Cy Young thus becomes the first player to make the decade All-Star team for two decades, as the #2 starting pitcher from the 1890s and the #1 starting pitcher from the 1900s.  In listing the honorable mentions I wasn’t as careful about double-checking which position they should be listed as, so I might have missed some of those. 

1910s

Catcher—Chief Meyers (119)

First Base—Ed Konetchy (204)

Second Base—Eddie Collins (338)

Third Base—Home Run Baker (253)

Shortstop—Art Fletcher (192)

Left Field—Zack Wheat (204)

Center Field—Ty Cobb (386)

Right Field—Shoeless Joe Jackson (257)

Starting Pitchers—

Walter Johnson (378)

Pete Alexander (266)

Eddie Cicotte (196)

Hippo Vaughan (183)

          Others over 200:  second baseman Larry Doyle (225), third baseman Heinie Zimmerman (204), left fielder Sherry Magee (200), center fielders Tris Speaker (361) and Clyde Milan (219) and right fielder Harry Hooper (208).

          You can see that the selections of the process are generally consistent with mainstream thinking. There aren’t very many cases in which you say "What?"   Tris Speaker is the real-life case that best demonstrates a problem discussed earlier.  Speaker was the #3 player of the decade.  Cobb had 386 Win Shares, The Big Train had 378, and the Gray Eagle had 361.  Logically, we would put Speaker in center and move Cobb to left, which creates a stronger team, but if we were then considering the Hall of Fame case for Zack Wheat, as we now are considering the case for Gil Hodges, someone could legitimately say that he was left off of this team although he was, in fact, the best left fielder of the decade, since Cobb was not a left fielder.  So our rules don’t allow us to move Tyrus and bench Zack.

1920s

Catcher—Wally Schang (137)

First Base—Joe Judge (179)

Second Base—Rogers Hornsby (362)

Third Base—Pie Traynor (176)

Shortstop—Joe Sewell (220)

Left Field—Goose Goslin (200)

Center Field—Tris Speaker (233)

Right Field—Babe Ruth (413)

Starting Pitchers—

Pete Alexander (210)

Burleigh Grimes (210)

Eppa Rixey (201)

Dolph Luque (191)

Reliever—Firpo Marberry (93)

          Others over 200:  second baseman Frankie Frisch (243), right fielders Harry Heilmann (263) and Sam Rice (217).

          Joe Judge is an off-beat pick at first base, as there are God knows how man Hall of Fame first basemen in this decade—George Sisler, Highpockets Kelly, Bill Terry, Jim Bottomley, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx late in the decade.  Joe Judge was a good player and a historically underrated player.  He hit .300 eight years in ten during the 1920s, hit .294 and .291 the other two years, was a fine fielder, but honestly he rates ahead of the Hall of Famers because he was the only one who was in possession of a regular job throughout the decade. 

          Pete Alexander, like Cy Young, was the #2 pitcher in one decade, then the #1 pitcher in the next one.

          And I was shocked, shocked (!!) that Dazzy Vance did not earn a spot on the team.  Dazzy certainly had the most impressive seasons of the decade, in 1924, 1925 and 1928, but he missed the 1920 and 1921 seasons, thus gets left behind.

1930s

Catcher—Bill Dickey (230)

First Base—Lou Gehrig (323)

Second Base—Charlie Gehringer (270)

Third Base—Stan Hack (142)

Shortstop—Tie, Joe Cronin and Arky Vaughan (249 each)

Left Field—Al Simmons (211)

Center Field—Earl Averill (253)

Right Field—Mel Ott (323)

Starting Pitchers—

Lefty Grove (262)

Carl Hubbell (243)

Wes Ferrell (205)

Red Ruffing (205)

Reliever—Johnny Murphy (62)

          Others over 200: catcher Gabby Hartnett (209), first baseman Jimmie Foxx (314), left fielder Joe Medwick (207), center fielders Wally Berger (240) and Ben Chapman (202) and right fielder Paul Waner (253).

1940s

Catcher—Ernie Lombardi (92)

First Base—Johnny Mize (187)

Second Base—Bobby Doerr (209)

Third Base—Bob Elliott (219)

Shortstop—Lou Boudreau (255)

Left Field—Ted Williams (290)

Center Field—Joe DiMaggio (213)

Right Field—Dixie Walker (219)

Starting Pitchers—

Hal Newhouser (224)

Dizzy Trout (175)

Bucky Walters (157)

Bob Feller (155)

Reliever—Ted Wilks (63), ahead of Hugh Casey and Joe Page, both 59.

          Others over 200:  shortstops Luke Appling (207) and Vern Stephens (203), left fielder Stan Musial (263), right fielder Bill Nicholson (202).

          Now we are ready to address the questions with which we started the article.  Let me begin by just giving you the 1950s team:

1950s

Catcher—Yogi Berra, (276)

First Base—Stan Musial (285)

Second Base—Nellie Fox (224)

Third Base—Eddie Mathews (248)

Shortstop—Alvin Dark (187)

Left Field—Minnie Minoso (234)

Center Field—Mickey Mantle (317)

Right Field—Henry Aaron (177)

Starting Pitchers—

Warren Spahn (239)

Robin Roberts (237)

Early Wynn (199)

Billy Pierce (190)

Reliever—Jim Konstanty (61), ahead of Elroy Face (55)

          Others over 200:  first baseman Gil Hodges (221), third baseman Eddie Yost (207), left fielder Ted Williams (212), and center fielders Duke Snider (278), Richie Ashburn (249), Willie Mays (237) and Larry Doby (226).

So all of a sudden, we are in a terrible tangle.  The first thing we learn is, Gil Hodges is actually NOT the best first baseman of the 1950s, unless you are going to ignore the fact that Stan Musial was playing first base for the Cardinals.   In the decade, Stan Musial played 721 games at first base, 322 in left field, 295 in right field, and 139 in center field.  What’s his position, do you think?  Where are you going to put him, on the Decade All Star team?  He played easily more games at first than at any other two positions, combined.

Your only out, to try to save Hodges’ spot, is to claim that Musial was an "outfielder"—not a left fielder, not a center fielder, not a right fielder; just an outfielder.  In the 1950s, "outfield" was sometimes presented as one defensive position.  In the modern world, that’s not how we present the data, and that’s not really how anybody thinks.   Stan Musial in the 1950s was not an "outfielder"; he was a first baseman. 

Musial had 285 Win Shares during the decade, which is way more than Gil Hodges.   Despite that, Hodges’ case here is NOT weak.  It is stronger than I would have guessed.  First, a Hodges supporter can reasonably say that Musial was not a true first baseman.  The Hodges supporter does not have to concede the point, merely because it has been figured that way.  You could certainly make up some set of logically consistent rules that WOULD put Hodges at first base on the 1950s All Star team. 

Second, John Q’s argument that "it was a weak first baseman group in the 1950s" is pretty clearly not true.  It is not a weak group.  Musial’s Win Share total from the 1950s is the third-highest we have yet seen for a first base decade, the second-highest total being 314, by Jimmie Foxx from the 1930s, hidden behind Lou Gehrig.  But Hodges had 221.   That’s more than the decade leader at first base from the 1890s, 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, or 1940s.  221 is not a low total for a decade leader.  It is 22 Win Shares per season, which is a stiff pace to maintain for ten years.  And even the players behind Hodges, Ted Kluszewski at 170, Mickey Vernon at 160 and Vic Wertz at 149, are not weak compared to the 2-3-4-5 guys from other decades, except the 1930s, which had so many great first basemen that you can’t count them.

The real explanation is not that the 1950s first basemen were weak; it is that whether a player’s career fits neatly into one decade is a really, really terrible way to put his contribution into historical context. 

Also, about 75% of the players listed here ARE in the Hall of Fame, which can be represented as supporting Hodges’ candidacy.  But while it is true that most players who are the best in their league in a decade are in the Hall of Fame, there are many who are not.  Basically, there are two or three players on every decade All-Star team who are not in the Hall of Fame—Bill Bradley and Roy Thomas from the 1900s, Chief Meyers, Ed Konetchy and Art Fletcher from the 1910s, Wally Schang and Joe Judge from the 1920s.   Stan Hack was not only the #1 third baseman of the 1930s, but also the #2 third baseman of the 1940s, and he is STILL not in the Hall of Fame.  From the 1940s, third baseman Bob Elliott and right fielder Dixie Walker are not in, although their totals for their decade are almost exactly the same as Gil Hodges’ total from the 1950s (221-219-219). 

And, from the 1950s, there are two other players who show up here as the decade leader, but are not in the Hall of Fame—shortstop Alvin Dark, and left fielder Minnie Minoso. 

Of course, the Gil Hodges defender has a response to this, and this leads us down a dark alley, not essentially relevant to the issue of whether Gil Hodges should be soaked in bronze and displayed on a pedestal.  "Al Dark wasn’t the top shortstop of the 1950s; Ernie Banks was," and also "Minnie Minoso wasn’t the top left fielder of the 1950s; Ted Williams was."   As to Banks being the rightful owner of the title of Shortstop of the 1950s. . .well, that’s true; Dark finished first only because Banks didn’t play the first four years of the decade, except for a few games.  As to Minoso vs. Williams, that is more debatable.   Williams, although he maintained fantastic rate stats, drove in or scored 100 runs only once during the 1950s, because he was in and out of the lineup.  If you represent the decade as a year, there are going to be an awful lot of games there when the All-Star team has no left fielder. 

Regardless of how you come down on that issue, Williams vs. Minoso, Minoso still had more Win Shares in the 1950s than Gil Hodges did, 234 to 221, despite playing fewer seasons and despite playing in 130 fewer games (1,477 to 1,347).   Minoso, later in getting to the majors than Hodges, mostly because he was a person of color, wound up with 9.9 more career WAR than Hodges did.  No matter whether you put Hodges and Ted Williams on the decade All Star team or Musial and Minoso, the question still is, if Gil Hodges’ performance during the 1950s makes him a Hall of Famer, does it not still leave Minnie Minoso in line in front of him? 

Finishing up the Decade All Star teams, selected by Win Shares, rigid positional requirements:

1960s

Catcher—Joe Torre (178)

First Base—Harmon Killebrew (257)

Second Base—Pete Rose (176).  Sabermetric hero Dick McAuliffe, 170.

Third Base—Ron Santo (249)

Shortstop—Maury Wills (215)

Left Field—Carl Yastrzemski (231)

Center Field—Willie Mays (337)

Right Field—Henry Aaron (340)

Starting Pitchers—

          Juan Marichal (216)

          Bob Gibson (213)

          Don Drysdale (192)

          Jim Bunning (185)

          Sandy Koufax fifth at 168

Reliever—

          Hoyt Wilhelm became the first reliever to earn 100 Win Shares in a decade, with 144.  He was followed by Ron Perranoski (108), Lindy McDaniel (101) and Stu Miller (101).

          Others over 200: first basemen Willie McCovey (237), Norm Cash (233), and Orlando Cepeda (223), third basemen Brooks Robinson (234) and Eddie Mathews (202), left fielders Frank Howard (229) and Billy Williams (227), center fielders Mickey Mantle (248), Vada Pinson (225) and Curt Flood (207), right fielders Frank Robinson (307), Roberto Clemente (262), Al Kaline (230) and Johnny Callison (209). 

1970s

Catcher—Johnny Bench (263)

First Base—Tony Perez (217)

Second Base—Joe Morgan (315)

Third Base—Pete Rose (288)

Shortstop—Toby Harrah (173)

Left Field—Willie Stargell (230)

Center Field—Amos Otis (237)

Right Field—Reggie Jackson (262)

Designated Hitter—Hal McRae (141)

Starting Pitchers—

          Jim Palmer (235)

          Tom Seaver (230)

          Gaylord Perry (222)

          Phil Niekro (214)

Reliever—Mike Marshall (134), followed by Rollie Fingers (126)

          Others over 200:  catchers Ted Simmons (224) and Thurman Munson (204), first baseman Bob Watson (203), second basemen Rod Carew (245) and Bobby Grich (202), third basemen Graig Nettles (222), Sal Bando (220), and Mike Schmidt (202), left fielder Carl Yastrzemski (218), center fielders Cesar Cedeno (218) and Al Oliver (208), right fielders Bobby Murcer (240), Ken Singleton (231), Reggie Smith (224) and Rusty Staub (201), and pitchers Ferguson Jenkins (204) and Steve Carlton (202).  George Brett was at 152 in the 1970s.

          Pete Rose makes the team both for the 1960s and the 1970s.

1980s

Catcher—Gary Carter (215)

First Base—Eddie Murray (250)

Second Base—Lou Whitaker (205)

Third Base—Mike Schmidt (265)

Shortstop—Robin Yount (274)

Left Field—Rickey Henderson (289)

Center Field—Dale Murphy (244)

Right Field—Dwight Evans (230)

Designated Hitter—Reggie Jackson (114)

Starting Pitchers—

          Dave Stieb (175)

          Jack Morris (154)

          Bert Blyleven (139)

          Fernando Valenzuela (135)

Reliever—Dan Quisenberry (153)

          Others over 200:  first baseman Keith Hernandez (221), third basemen Wade Boggs (237) and George Brett (229), shortstops Cal Ripken (219), Alan Trammell (219) and Ozzie Smith (204), left fielder Tim Raines (246), center fielder Andre Dawson (204), right fielders Pedro Guerrero (221) and Jack Clark (213),

          Reggie makes the All Decade team both for the 1970s and the 1980s, although his total for the 1980s is not really notable.  DH is a hard position because very few star players have been career Designated Hitters.

1990s

Catcher—Mike Piazza (206)

First Base—Frank Thomas (273)

Second Base—Craig Biggio (287)

Third Base—Robin Ventura (203)

Shortstop—Barry Larkin (242)

Left Field—Barry Bonds (351)

Center Field—Ken Griffey Jr. (261)

Right Field—Tony Gwynn (208)

Designated Hitter—Edgar Martinez (204)

Starting Pitchers—

          Greg Maddux (231)

          Roger Clemens (204)

          Tom Glavine (184)

          Randy Johnson (167)

Reliever—

          John Wetteland (116)

          Others over 200:  first basemen Jeff Bagwell (263), Rafael Palmeiro (244),

Mark McGwire (234), Fred McGriff (213), Mark Grace (210), second basemen  Roberto Alomar (243) and Chuck Knoblauch (208), third baseman Matt Williams (201), shortstop Jay Bell (200), left fielders Albert Belle (222) and Rickey Henderson (211), and right fielders Gary Sheffield (207) and Larry Walker (204).  First baseman John Olerud was at 199. 

          Edgar Martinez was the first Designated Hitter to have 200 in a decade.

2000s

Catcher—Jorge Posada (214); Pudge Rodriguez is second in both the

1990s and 2000s

First Base—Albert Pujols (315)

Second Base—Jeff Kent (206)

Third Base—Alex Rodriguez (311)

Shortstop—Derek Jeter (248)

Left Field—Barry Bonds (267)

Center Field—Carlos Beltran (225)

Right Field—Bobby Abreu (254)

Designated Hitter—David Ortiz, 174

Starting Pitchers—

Roy Halladay (157)

          Johan Santana (155)

          Randy Johnson (152)

          Mark Buehrle (149)

Reliever—Mariano Rivera (161)

          Others over 200:  first basemen Lance Berkman (259), Todd Helton (246), Carlos Delgado (225), Jason Giambi (218) and Jim Thome (211), third baseman Chipper Jones (239), shortstop Miguel Tejada (233), left fielder Manny Ramirez (257), center fielder Johnny Damon (215), right fielders Ichiro Suzuki (238), Vladimir Guerrero (234) and Brian Giles (226).

          Barry Bonds makes the All Decade team both for the 1990s and 2000s, and Randy Johnson is in the pitching rotation for both decades.  Mariano Rivera is the first relief pitcher to have a higher total for the decade than any starter. 

2010s

Catcher—Buster Posey (223)

First Base—Joey Votto (263)

Second Base—Robinson Cano (264)

Third Base—Tie, Adrian Beltre and Evan Longoria (189 each)

Shortstop—Elvis Andrus (185)

Left Field—Ryan Braun (195)

Center Field—Mike Trout (299)

Right Field—Jose Bautista (192)

Designated Hitter—Nelson Cruz (205)

Starting Pitchers—

          Clayton Kershaw (184)

          Justin Verlander (177)

          Max Scherzer (172, 86 with each eye)

          Zack Greinke (161)

Reliever—Craig Kimbrel (125)

          Others over 200:  catcher Yadier Molina (202), first basemen Miguel Cabrera (237), Freddy Freeman (226) and Paul Goldschmidt (214), and center fielder Andrew McCutchen (259).

          OK, before I go I have a couple of bones to pick with readers about comments posted in re The Immortal Gil Hodges. 

Someone wrote that "there’s a little padding of the list of first basemen who are ahead of Hodges in the HOF line."  I haven’t "padded" anything.  It was never presented as a list of first basemen.  It was clearly introduced as a list "of first basemen or sometimes first basemen."  The reader chose to misrepresent it as a list of first basemen, so that he could falsely imply that I was misleading the public.  I would ask you politely not to do that.

          The point is, when you are discussing whether Gil Hodges should be first in line for the Hall of Fame, players like Rusty Staub, Jack Clark and Bobby Bonilla are very obviously relevant to that discussion.  Hodges shouldn’t go into the Hall of Fame in front of Jack Clark unless his credentials are clearly better than Jack Clark’s—regardless of how much time Jack Clark spent at first base.   The fact that you might have approached the issue differently does not justify misrepresenting what I said.

          Also, there was a comment that "Comparing hs 1950s stats to stats of guys who played in the 1980s (when everyone hit 370 homers) ain’t fair."  

          To deal with the factual issue first, the percentage of players who hit 370 or more home runs was HIGHER in the 1950s than it was in the 1980s.  It is not lower; it is higher.  There were 422 players who played in the 1980s and had careers of 1,000 or more games.  7.8% of them hit 370 or more homers.  There were 223 players who played in the 1950s and had careers of 1,000 or more games.   8.1% of them of them hit 370 or more homers.  (Three players played in both the 1950s and the 1980s—Willie McCovey, Tim McCarver and Minnie Minoso.) 

          The reader implies that the 1950s were some distant era before home run hitters took over the game, but that’s just bizarrely untrue.   The 1950s were ankle deep in players who did nothing BUT hit home runs—Gus Zernial, Ralph Kiner, Roy Sievers, Vic Wertz, Ted Kluszewski, Eddie Mathews, Rocky Colavito, Joe Adcock, Del Ennis, Wally Post, Eddie Robinson, Hank Sauer, etc.  The Dodgers of the 1950s had three guys who had 40+ homers in a season—Hodges, Snider (several times) and Campanella. 

          There were 15 Dodger players in the 1950s who hit 30 or more home runs in a season; not 15 different players, of course.  By contrast, there was one Dodger in the 1960s who hit 30 homers, 3 in the 1970s, 3 in the 1980s, and 12 in the 1990s. 

          There were 7 Dodger players in the 1950s who hit 40 or more home runs.  By contrast, there were none at all in the 1960s, none in the 1970s, none in the 1980s, and one in the 1990s.  After Duke Snider hit 40 home runs in 1957, not a single Dodger player reached that level until 40 years later.  

          It wasn’t a LOW home run era; it was a HIGH home run era, at least for the Dodgers. 

          That is the smaller issue.  Although I am certain that the reader did not mean to be insulting, the comment is quite offensive.  Let me try to explain why. 

          In the 21^st century, discussions of this type—that is, discussions of who belongs in the Hall of Fame, and of who was better than whom, take place on two entirely differently levels, which could be called

          A naïve level and a sophisticated level

          An un-educated level and an educated level

          A primitive level and an advanced level

          A stupid level and a smart level

          A talk-show level and a student-of-the-game level

          A fans’ level and an analysts’ level

          I hope you get the point, but not the judgment.  People who like to talk about who belongs in the Hall of Fame or similar topics should not be precluded from joining the discussion because they haven’t followed the latest research.   In many cases, they know more than we do; they just don’t use the systems of analysis that we in our field have created. 

          In a fans’ level discussion, people will say things like "everybody hit 370 home runs in the 1980s", because they don’t know any better.  In a fans’ level discussion, a fan will assert something like "Juan Gonzalez was obviously better than Duke Snider.  Look, Gonzalez hit more homers than Duke (434 to 407), drove in more runs (1404 to 1333), did that in fewer games and fewer at bats, and hit for the same average.  Gonzalez won two MVP Awards; Snider didn’t win any.  Why would anyone think that Snider was better than Gonzalez?"

          Again, the fan is entitled to his opinion; he isn’t required to take a sabermetrics class to have an opinion or to say what it is.  But that isn’t what we do here.  That isn’t what we’re doing.  That isn’t what I have done; it isn’t what anyone in this discussion has done.  When you say that we are just comparing statistics from different eras, it’s offensive.  It’s rude.  It’s rude, because it denies the fact that we have done the work that we have done, and it denies that we know the things that we have learned. 

          What we are looking at is not raw stats; it is the impact on the team’s wins.  We look at WAR—WINS above replacement--and we look at Win Shares, which is WIN shares.  Duke Snider had 66 WAR; Juan Gonzalez had 39.   Duke Snider had 352 Win Shares; Juan Gonzalez had 233.   Not only is Gonzalez not better than Snider; he’s not in the same range.  Basically, everybody on this site, almost everybody, knows that and would agree with that. 

          We are not comparing statistics.  We are comparing players.  It is a different thing.  Yes, we are comparing players based on their statistics, but only after we have gone through a rigorous process of (a) looking at EVERY relevant statistic, rather than picking and choosing those we like, (b) placing every statistic in its exact context, and (c) trying to measure the value of each accomplishment. 

          After we have done that, we have an estimate of how many games the player WON for his team.  We are digging down to the bedrock underneath the soil. We’re not always correct; we don’t always agree.  But a win is a win.  A win in the 1950s is a win in 2021 (acknowledging that the schedule is 5% longer post-1961, so a post-expansion player has a 5% advantage.)  But once you get down to the level of wins, rather than home runs or RBI or some other category stat, then we CAN, in fact, compare players across time,

Players in the 1950s were trying to win games, and

Players in 2021 are trying to win games. 

What they are trying to do is exactly the same, even though the statistics may be different and the way that each player goes about it may be different.  This process in no way discriminates against 1950s players.  Of the top 17 players ever in Win Shares, six played in the 1950s (Aaron, Mays, Musial, Mantle, Ted Williams and Frank Robinson), whereas only three played in the 1980s (Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson and Pete Rose.)   Career Win Shares puts Eddie Mathews ahead of George Brett, Al Kaline ahead of Robin Yount or Dave Winfield, Warren Spahn ahead of Greg Maddux, Yogi Berra ahead of Johnny Bench, Gary Carter or Ivan Rodriguez, Duke Snider ahead of Andre Dawson, Robin Roberts ahead of Nolan Ryan, and Richie Ashburn ahead of Dave Parker or Vladimir Guerrero.  I would not AGREE with some of those comparisons, but the point is, there is no way that anyone familiar with the data could argue that Win Shares is unfair to 1950s players.

We have worked very, very hard on the problem for, in my case, more than 50 years—and thousands of other people have also contributed meaningfully to the process.  To barge into the room and say that you can’t compare a player from the 1950s to a player from later on is offensive, because (a) I have worked immensely hard in order to figure out how to do exactly that, and (b) yes, in fact, we can.  Maybe YOU can’t, in the un-educated part of the discussion, but we certainly can, over on our side of the fence. 

The problem with Gil Hodges isn’t that he "only" hit 370 home runs or that he "only" hit .273 or that he got less than 2,000 career hits.  The problem is that there are more than a hundred other players who won more games for their team than Gil Hodges did, and who are not in the Hall of Fame.