CharlesSaeger
bjames: There's a phrase for all of this: "security theater." By way of extra hassle, the government and airlines remind us to be afraid. Neither of those parties is interested in making things any easier.​
6:35 PM Apr 17th

Marc Schneider
Old Backstop,

That makes sense I guess. Thanks.
2:00 PM Apr 15th

Marc Schneider
I would not have resisted if security came to take me off the plane. I would, however, have yelled and made it clear I would sue. It's not clear to me why airlines overbook because, once the person pays for the seat, the airline has the revenue regardless of whether the person is actually on board. Just like if a fan who paid for a ticket doesn't show up for the game (but even less reason because the team gets additional revenue usually from the fan buying concessions.) I guess there must be a reason; I can't imagine that flying with fewer people on board increases the costs-seems like it would reduce the amount of fuel used. Does it have something to do with pricing?
2:30 PM Apr 14th

MichaelPat
More on the legal issue of United's "right" to evict a seated, properly boarded passenger...

www.natlawreview.com/article/united-airlines-dr-dao-and-contract-carriage

Two things:

1. Is this why the United CEO originally referred to Dr. Dao as "disruptive and belligerent"? United would have the right to remove a passenger behaving that way.


2. How long will it be before the Contract of Carriage gets amended to allow airlines do whatever the hell they want with properly boarded and seated passengers? Over/under anyone?
10:31 AM Apr 14th

OldBackstop
Michael, I confess you make a good point, and it isn't like Dao precipitated the whole mess by throwing a punch.

I would hope that the same result could be achieved by offended passengers banding together with some legal help.

I've had frustrating experiences with United myself. Last year, on a flight to Florida the flight attendant ibsisted that a passenger with a small dog tuck it down under the seat. That dog literally barked for three hours. The young girl next to me videotaped it and complained to United, to no avail (she contacted me). However, I did sympathize that United was required to book dogs and I'm sure they have broken lose and caused problems.
6:29 AM Apr 14th

MichaelPat
"United's booking policies and gate decisions and ordering security personnel onto the plane for removal of the guy...indefensible. Changing that will be a victory for all of us."

But if Dr. Dao had gotten up and left the plane with security, there would be no victory for all of us.

United would have been rewarded for its use of security forces... and would have been ever more likely to use security again. Why offer an $800 voucher if all you have to offer is $300... along with the threat of calling security?

I believe United CEO Munoz changed his tune on Tuesday primarily because United's legal team had come to realize they had no legal right to even try to take Dr. Dao off that flight. (See www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535)

Airlines can deny boarding when they need seats, either for their own crews or because of overbooking, but once a paying passenger has been granted boarding, then the Contract of Carriage specifies when a passenger can be removed - and the airline needing the seat is not listed as a reason for removing a passenger who has been granted boarding.

When CEO Munoz said United will never again call security to remove a passenger who has been permitted to board because they need the seat, he isn't making a concession. He is saying United will obey the law.

(At least until the airlines can get the law changed...)


10:53 PM Apr 13th

OldBackstop
I just watched some of Dao's attorney's press conference.

United is really screwed. He says that Dao suffered a severe concussion, lost two front teeth, a broken nose, and doesn't remember running back on the plane.

He nicely and savvily dodged questions regarding Dao's past drug and behavior issues and anger management, saying it was remote in time and legally irrelevant in a jury trial.

I wrote out a longer post and lost it, so you are spared that :-). My issue here is that nobody should ever physically resist credentialed security personnel, including cops on the street, and if they do risk physical injury. I don't want to travel with a bunch of empowered angry people looking to pick fights. I believe one of the posters here who advocated physically resisting also referred to it as a lottery winning situation. Next time a passenger is asked to leave and digs in he might be a 300 lb professional wrestler, or a drunk or crazy guy who is a threat to other passengers, or shoebomber. And empowering them to where they win the right to take-off is a problem.

United's booking policies and gate decisions and ordering security personnel onto the plane for removal of the guy...indefensible. Changing that will be a victory for all of us.

Nobody here apparently teases that out as their issue, which is fine, I invoke the lone wolf clause in my BJOL contract all the time :-)

1:18 PM Apr 13th

OldBackstop
I dunno, Maris, he acted more like a Hillary mourner...lol.

Anyway....as Bill alluded to in his new article, it's more complex than the initial headlines. Comping random passengers....actually not random, apparently most airlines factor in connections, etc. And I'm sure it is meant to be done before boarding.

Anyway comping chosen passengers may be a good enough bump policy 9,999 times out of 10,000, But policies and laws have to change for unforeseen circumstances and.....nutjobs.

What happens with airlines is there is a cascade effect when a flight is disrupted, say for mechanical or weather. I dunno what happened here, but then you have to scramble crews around.


10:46 PM Apr 12th

sansho1
Damn, OldBackstop, you're going full black teenager on this guy.
9:59 PM Apr 12th

OldBackstop
So, not that there is anything wrong with this, but Dao was the recipient of many complaints at his work and was sent to counseling for disruptive and angry outbursts. He lost his medical license and was sentenced to five years probation for trading prescription drugs for gay sex at a local motel.

According to tonight's Rasmussen report, he is currently third in the polling for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination.

8:43 PM Apr 12th

Steven Goldleaf
I'd like to question one of my own assumptions, which was that the airline should have kept raising the offer until someone (4 someones) took it. Is it actually true that someone who decided "Nah, $800 isn't worth my giving up my seat on this plane" going to do it when it reaches $1000? Or $5000? IOW if United keeps raising their bid, is it going to have the desired effect eventually, or is "eventually" going to be in the yearly-salary range? I have no idea, outside of "What would I do?" (which is to cave as soon as the money approached $1000) if it's even mathematically possible that you could get a whole planeload of passengers thinking, "I don't care what money they offer, I must get on this flight."
4:39 PM Apr 12th

bjames

But....what do you think they should have done? Deplane? Take off with the precedent of a passenger openly defying security directives?


There are a million things that could be done or could have been done.

1) Resolve issues about who is going to be on the plane BEFORE you put people on the plane, not AFTER.

2) Don't prioritize your employees rights above your customers.

3) Don't sell tickets for seats that aren't available.

4) Don't put stuff in the fine print in selling a ticket that you think gives you the right to beat up your customers if necessary. Believe me, NOTHING YOU PUT IN THE FINE PRINT OF A CONTRACT GIVES YOU A LEGAL RIGHT TO BEAT UP YOUR CUSTOMER. That is just not the way the world works.

In fact, stop putting silly shit in the fine print of your contract, period. That would be good.
3:22 PM Apr 12th

bjames

5. This will make a lot of people unhappy, including Bill, but our friendship has survived worse. We have here a situation comparable to Judge Gorsuch and the truck driver. (Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.) The airline either had the legal right to remove passengers under the terms of the ticket contract, or they didn't. If they have that right and a passenger resists they presumably have the right to enforce it by force.


EVEN IF the airline has that right and a passenger resists--which is questionable both legally and morally, but let's assume that is true--it is STILL excessive use of police force. EVEN THE POLICE cannot do this to someone who is not doing anything other than resisting. If I am refusing a police order but not endangering anyone and have not harmed anyone, the police cannot physically harm ME in the process of forcing me to comply. If I take a swing at the policeman, that's different. But if I don't take a swing at the policeman, then he CANNOT jerk me physically out of my seat and drag me down the aisle--even if he believes I am in violation of the law. That's why the Airport cop in charge has been suspended, I think.
2:18 PM Apr 12th

OldBackstop
There is a "see the world" attraction to being a flight attendant, and you used to get all sorts of family travel deals. I've dated like three former stews in recent years, and they all spoke fondly of it. It seems like I date stews, teachers and former pharma reps and escorts.
12:52 PM Apr 12th

OldBackstop

Okay, so….

1. Really, we are jeopardizing our relationship with Bill be disagreeing? He started with a joke, I don’t think he is Masada on this. ??

2. It is a good question about whether this was vouchers or cash. From what I can see at a quick look on the intrathing, you can negotiate cash in some instances with some airlines (that was from a 2015 frequent flyer blog). There also is sort of a secondary market for travel vouchers, so some seem to be transferrable, but you would not get the full amount. There are also people on some sites bitching about the vouchers having restrictions similar to using frequent flyer miles. However, just to clarify if anyone doesn’t understand, I am pretty sure these are on top of you getting your flight on the next available plane and a hotel credit and some expenses if necessary, even meals.

3. Obviously, there are situations where I really wouldn’t want to get off the plane…if I was heading to a wedding or important business or beating a blizzard in or etc. etc., but….

4. I would make my case, and if three security guys showed up, I would get up and silently leave with a pissed off look and a plan for media and legal revenge. I mean….Steve is up for some national press for protesting against The Man and getting dragged out….I can’t see myself chaining myself to the seat under any circumstances. To each his own. I’d be mortified. I can’t see Steve screaming at the top of his lungs and later breaking free and getting back on the plane running up and down the aisles.

5. Wait….

6. Actually I can totally see that.

7. There should never, ever be a situation where the airline couldn’t/wouldn’t shouldn’t just bid up the offer until there are takers. If you look online, there is a closet industry in people who angle how to get into overbooking situations for the deals. Go up in $200 increments and wait five minutes in between. When I was growing up my parents had two places in the Virgin Islands, and we took these bump deals all the time. My dad had it down to a science….booking the always crowded direct flight back to New York, being at the gate early to get on the volunteer list, stalling the rebook so we’d get two more days when he had the room in his work schedule, and submitting robust expense bills. We did it at least a dozen times.

8. I briefly did PR for Continental, which merged into United and I also represented a travel agency organization, before that industry went buggy whip. God bless anyone who wants to run an airline, because it is nothing but a mountain of stress….people bitch about everything without appreciating that you are flying them across country in their magic machine for the cost of a visit to the vet (which jumps to mind today.)

9. Since everyone in the US today seems to be confused about why airline travel sucks compared to what it used to, it’s because it used to be a lot more profitable. In the 80s, or before whenever it was that frequent flyer programs started years ago, the flight would be paid for by the business execs and high rollers shelling out the rack rate price of a first class seat. Now, we all go on Expedia and take the flight that is 30 cents less. First class is full of FF points and upgrades, not people paying $2,400. The business is a nightmare…. you’ve got unions, security, variable fuel costs and god forbid you have a plane go down. If you can think of a better business model to fly people to Florida for $240, you have a career opportunity, because every airline ends up broke.

10. The story that should be written about is how the guy somehow got BACK on the plane and ran up and down the aisle. He was already obviously agitated…he could have grabbed a pen and held it to someone’s neck and demanded you take off. Why am I taking my damn shoes off at security if a guy flipping out can just soldier his way right back onto the plane??

I don’t know the sequence of events that led to them having to get four people to Kentucky, but undoubtedly, they were looking at cancelling or delaying a flight and screwing up a few hundred people’s lives, plus causing a ripple effect in their schedule for days. It would be nice if everyone was okay with paying another $150 a ticket so they could have spare planes and extra flight screws scattered around the country. But you aren’t. It’s your fault.

After all that…..bottomline…they had a flawed process…nobody should ever be removed from a plane except for behavior. Someone can always be bribed.

11:48 AM Apr 12th

QimingZou
5. This will make a lot of people unhappy, including Bill, but our friendship has survived worse. We have here a situation comparable to Judge Gorsuch and the truck driver. (Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.) The airline either had the legal right to remove passengers under the terms of the ticket contract, or they didn't. If they have that right and a passenger resists they presumably have the right to enforce it by force. Now that was awfully stupid, but if they can't make people get off, then they don't really have the right to demand the seat. Please understand, I am not saying I support them having that right. I don't think they should be able to take people's seats away. But they do. In the same way, Gorsuch wasn't arguing that the truck driver did something wrong to leave his truck and he wasn't endorsing the decision to fire him, he was just saying it was a decision the company was entitled to make.

They are probably within their rights legally, but that offers no protection from customer reaction. Same as freedom of speech, people are free to say dumb things and others are free to call them out on it.
9:47 AM Apr 12th

steve161
David is probably right about the airlines' expectations when they issue vouchers. I was handed one last year, worth $300. I was sitting on a flight from San Jose to Denver, expecting to fly on to St Louis, when they called my name and told me the connecting flight was cancelled. I went peacefully: what would be the point of being in Denver without a connection? So they gave me a voucher and put me on a flight to Minneapolis that connected to St Louis, at a total cost of about five hours.

The voucher stated explicitly that it cannot be redeemed through a travel agent, but only online (free of charge) or on the phone (for a 'small' booking fee). So when I planned this year's trip with my agent, I left a hole for a round trip between Chicago and St Louis, which I then tried to book online. Worked fine, except there was no option to apply the voucher. If I entered through the interface that started with recognizing the voucher, all of a sudden there were no flights available.

So I called United (an 800 number is not toll-free from Germany to the US), spoke to a very pleasant young woman with a light unidentifiable accent, and the booking was made, the voucher applied and the fee waived. A customer with less perseverance would have been left shredding the voucher and sprinkling it onto his cereal, but after a while it became a matter of principle.
9:21 AM Apr 12th

Steven Goldleaf
If security says get off, and you get off, you've lost the argument. The only leverage you have is your ass in that seat.
8:46 AM Apr 12th

MarisFan61
Big difference between the Gorsuch thing and this: Businesses don't (can't) just go by what's legally defensible; they can't survive that way. They have to take into account things like morality and what makes people reasonably happy, and perhaps most of all, what makes them unhappy enough to file and win huge lawsuits.
7:57 AM Apr 12th

MarisFan61
OldBackstop: Your personal examples are flucking up your logic on this.

Those examples having nothing whatsoever, at all, to do with a situation where the airline is asking a favor from passengers and they aren't able or don't wish to give it. All indication is that this would indeed have been completely "peaceable" if the airline had not decided to try to force a guy off the plane who simply needed or wished to keep the seat he had bought and in which he was seated for his flight.

There was some LIMIT on how much an airline could offer?

That's simply their own misunderstanding (I'd say) of the business model of their system. If their system involves overbooking (in order to maximize passenger numbers) and/or sometimes needing the get seated customers off the plane for their employees, that means they might sometimes have to take a loss on a flight, for the sake of carrying on their business and making money in the aggregate. You simply offer whatever it takes; if you lose money on the occasional flight, even a lot of money, that's negligible in the big picture.

If an airline were to find that they'd be losing money on flights too often for their business model to work well enough, they'd just need to look at some different policy decisions on overbooking and/or flying their employees.
7:43 AM Apr 12th

MichaelPat
Why should an airline have the right to remove a passenger simply because it wants the seat?

If the airline wants a seat, it should be required to buy it like anyone else, except in the most narrow of circumstances. (Say, having to switch to a smaller plane for mechanical reasons. Even then, there should be generous compensation rules for passengers.) Basic free market economics.

If airlines were required to hold auctions when they needed to buy seats on planes, this nonsense of bumping paying passengers would be greatly reduced.

If passengers competed in free auctions for the right to sell their seats - if airlines had to pay the real costs of bumping ticket-holders - then they would do it far less frequently.
7:16 AM Apr 12th

mauimike
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." George Orwell.







11:55 PM Apr 11th

OldBackstop
Oh well, good clean fun. :-) Let's hope for a week where this is the biggest story.


9:40 PM Apr 11th

OldBackstop
It's all fun but....seriously, the guy seems to be half a bubble off. In America today, they tell you to get off the commercial jetliner....take the argument outside.

And those guys weren't United employees. You can't assume that when you call security to have someone removed they are going to go '68 Abbie Hoffman.

United deserved a ton of crap for the situation....but they didn't deserve the 10,000 ton story of the year.
7:22 PM Apr 11th

OldBackstop
..hmmm....auto correct changes nutjob to button. How banana.
5:59 PM Apr 11th

BobGill
I think everybody's missing the point. Look at this from the point of view of all the other passengers. They got to see a floor show at no extra charge -- and as we all know, the good of the many outweighs the good of the one. Case closed.
4:22 PM Apr 11th

Brian
#11 - We HAD to get our employees on the plane. They were rushing to a training on improving customer relations...
3:57 PM Apr 11th

OldBackstop
lol.....


10. We clearly said turn off all goddamn electronic devices.

9. Thought he was Jong-Un of the Pyongyang Jong-Uns.

8. The woman next to him complained that he was in the full upright and locked position.

7. We technically own all that cellphone video, strong letter to follow.

6. Reallllly needed a doctor at a nearby gate with a similar situation.

5. These physical removals occur on less than 8% of our 12 million annual flights.

4. Customers all look alike.

3. His passport wasn’t stamped “Little Bitch”

2. The safe word was banana.

And, the number one response….

1. C'mon, $800 is more than we make on a flight to Kentucky !!




1:49 PM Apr 11th

bjames
Yeah, they really re-accommodated the shit out of him.
11:05 AM Apr 11th

Steven Goldleaf
11) We offered those damned passengers $800 and a hotel room to take a later flight, but no! None of them would take us up, and the next offer after "$800 and a free hotel room" is "We'll beat the mucus out of you and drag your dumb ass out of the plane." This happens to be true.

I woulda gone to $850, myself, but that's just the kind of person I am.
10:51 AM Apr 11th