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We can call it the Brooks Robinson Era

January 19, 2018
  

85.  Rosen

              Did you know that Al Rosen’s mother was named Rose Rosen?   After she was married.

              Al Rosen was a player of such tremendous ability that he should, with normal luck, have been a ten-time All-Star.   Although his period of brilliance was brief, I have no hesitation in describing Rosen as a "great" player.   He drove in 100 runs the first five years he was in the lineup, and in that period he was better than Brooks Robinson at Brooks’s best, or Santo, or Boyer, or Rolen or Pie Traynor or Stan Hack.    He was tremendous. 

              Rosen’s entry to the major leagues was delayed by:

              a) A four-year commitment to the United States Navy,

              b) The clogging of minor league systems in the first years after the war,

              c)  An unusual trade that the Indians made with the Yankees, and

              d)  The fact that the Indians already had a very good third baseman, in Ken Keltner (although Rosen was much better than Keltner.)

              The unusual trade. . .the Indians made a trade with the Yankees in which, as a condition of the trade, the Indians loaned Rosen to the Yankees’ top American Association affiliate for a year.   The Indians figured "We have Keltner, it doesn’t matter whether Rosen spends the season with our minor league team or the Yankees", so they loaned Rosen out for a season, basically for nothing.  Such a trade would be prohibited by organized baseball rules now or at any time in the last 50 years, and it was very uncommon even then, although there were some other cases in which it was done. 

              After he worked through all of that and reached the majors he was great for five years, then had back trouble and was forced into an early retirement.   Between those walls, he was the best third baseman in baseball, although in 1953 there were really two obvious #1s.

              Probably should talk a little about George Kell.   George Kell’s peak was in the Al Rosen era, and Kell is in the Hall of Fame although he was nowhere near the player that Rosen was.   But:

              a) Kell was around a lot longer than Rosen was,

              b) Kell was a batting champion and a lifetime .306 hitter, which was a huge thing in that era, when batting averages were considered to be THE measure of a hitter’s place in the world, and

              c) Kell was a very fine defensive third baseman.              

              Kell was the first Hall of Fame third baseman since Pie Traynor.  He should not be in the Hall of Fame, or anyway he should have been in line behind Stan Hack and Bob Elliott and some other guys, but he was a very good player despite a career secondary average not much over .200. 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1950

1

Al

Rosen

37

116

.287

.405

.543

24.86

1950

2

Bob

Elliott

24

107

.305

.386

.512

24.55

1950

3

George

Kell

8

101

.340

.403

.484

23.67

1950

4

Eddie

Yost

11

58

.295

.440

.405

22.45

1950

5

Johnny

Pesky

1

49

.312

.437

.388

20.50

 

     

 

     

 

 

1951

1

Al

Rosen

24

102

.265

.362

.447

27.07

1951

2

Eddie

Yost

12

65

.283

.423

.424

24.75

1951

3

Bobby

Thomson

32

101

.293

.385

.562

24.05

1951

4

George

Kell

2

59

.319

.386

.400

22.14

1951

5

Minnie

Minoso

10

76

.326

.422

.500

22.11

 

     

 

     

 

 

1952

1

Al

Rosen

28

105

.302

.387

.524

31.77

1952

2

Eddie

Yost

12

49

.233

.378

.359

23.81

1952

3

Eddie

Mathews

25

58

.242

.320

.447

22.15

1952

4

Bobby

Thomson

24

108

.270

.331

.482

22.08

1952

5

Gil

McDougald

11

78

.263

.336

.369

19.51

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1953

1

Al

Rosen

43

145

.336

.422

.613

34.61

1953

2

Eddie

Mathews

47

135

.302

.406

.627

32.87

1953

3

Ray

Boone

26

114

.296

.390

.519

23.81

1953

4

Eddie

Yost

9

45

.272

.403

.395

23.48

1953

5

Gil

McDougald

10

83

.285

.361

.416

21.83

 

 

86.  Eddie Mathews

              For ten solid years Eddie Mathews was the best third baseman in baseball, and he should be regarded as the greatest third baseman in baseball before Mike Schmidt.   He was not a particularly good defensive player, just adequate, but he was a major league bomber.  He was a B-17.   The other top third basemen of the era:  Eddie Yost, Willie Jones, Frank Malzone, Ken Boyer, Don Hoak. 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1954

1

Eddie

Mathews

40

103

.290

.423

.603

33.88

1954

2

Al

Rosen

24

102

.300

.404

.506

28.36

1954

3

Ray

Boone

20

85

.295

.376

.466

22.79

1954

4

Eddie

Yost

11

47

.256

.405

.380

22.04

1954

5

Hank

Thompson

26

86

.263

.389

.482

20.12

 

     

 

     

 

 

1955

1

Eddie

Mathews

41

101

.289

.413

.601

34.48

1955

2

Ray

Boone

20

116

.284

.346

.476

21.41

1955

3

Al

Rosen

21

81

.244

.362

.402

20.61

1955

4

Eddie

Yost

7

48

.243

.407

.371

19.43

1955

5

Willie

Jones

16

81

.258

.352

.401

17.53

 

     

 

     

 

 

1956

1

Eddie

Mathews

37

95

.272

.373

.518

31.08

1956

2

Ray

Boone

25

81

.308

.403

.518

20.17

1956

3

Ken

Boyer

26

98

.306

.347

.494

19.75

1956

4

Willie

Jones

17

78

.277

.383

.429

18.19

1956

5

Eddie

Yost

11

53

.231

.412

.336

18.11

 

     

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1957

1

Eddie

Mathews

32

94

.292

.387

.540

31.87

1957

2

Al

Smith

11

49

.247

.348

.377

18.80

1957

3

Frank

Malzone

15

103

.292

.323

.427

18.62

1957

4

Don

Hoak

19

89

.293

.381

.482

17.92

1957

5

Eddie

Yost

9

38

.251

.370

.372

16.82

 

     

 

     

 

 

1958

1

Eddie

Mathews

31

77

.251

.349

.458

29.72

1958

2

Ken

Boyer

23

90

.307

.360

.496

23.59

1958

3

Frank

Malzone

15

87

.295

.333

.421

19.45

1958

4

Don

Hoak

6

50

.261

.333

.376

16.61

1958

5

Eddie

Yost

8

37

.224

.361

.323

16.26

 

     

 

     

 

 

1959

1

Eddie

Mathews

46

114

.306

.390

.593

34.87

1959

2

Ken

Boyer

28

94

.309

.384

.508

25.14

1959

3

Eddie

Yost

21

61

.278

.435

.436

21.62

1959

4

Frank

Malzone

19

92

.280

.323

.437

20.33

1959

5

Harmon

Killebrew

42

105

.242

.354

.516

20.20

 

     

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1960

1

Eddie

Mathews

39

124

.277

.397

.551

35.11

1960

2

Ken

Boyer

32

97

.304

.370

.562

28.05

1960

3

Don

Hoak

16

79

.282

.366

.445

19.59

1960

4

Brooks

Robinson

14

88

.294

.329

.440

18.49

1960

5

Frank

Malzone

14

79

.271

.313

.398

18.35

 

     

 

     

 

 

1961

1

Eddie

Mathews

32

91

.306

.402

.535

33.88

1961

2

Ken

Boyer

24

95

.329

.397

.533

26.93

1961

3

Brooks

Robinson

7

61

.287

.334

.397

19.80

1961

4

Al

Smith

28

93

.278

.348

.506

19.74

1961

5

Frank

Malzone

14

87

.266

.314

.386

18.65

1961

6

Don

Hoak

12

61

.298

.388

.451

18.47

 

     

 

     

 

 

1962

1

Eddie

Mathews

29

90

.265

.381

.496

29.42

1962

2

Ken

Boyer

24

98

.291

.369

.470

24.55

1962

3

Brooks

Robinson

23

86

.303

.342

.486

24.22

1962

4

Don

Demeter

29

107

.307

.359

.520

22.13

1962

5

Rich

Rollins

16

96

.298

.374

.428

21.19

1962

6

Frank

Malzone

21

95

.283

.319

.426

19.31

 

     

 

     

 

 

1963

1

Eddie

Mathews

23

84

.263

.399

.453

28.52

1963

2

Ron

Santo

25

99

.297

.339

.481

24.72

1963

3

Ken

Boyer

24

111

.285

.358

.454

23.47

1963

4

Brooks

Robinson

11

67

.251

.305

.365

23.29

1963

5

Pete

Ward

22

84

.295

.353

.482

21.93

1963

6

Rich

Rollins

16

61

.307

.359

.444

20.71

             

              Mathews’ .399 On Base Percentage in 1963 led the National League.

 

 

87.  The Best Third Basemen in Baseball, 1900 to 1963

              As measured by the Years of Position Dominance Index, the top 25 third basemen of the years 1900 to 1963 were:

Rank

First

Last

1

2

3

4

5

YOPDI

From

To

1

Eddie

Mathews

10

1

1

0

0

111

1952

1968

2

Pie

Traynor

7

2

2

0

0

92

1920

1937

3

Stan

Hack

4

5

2

1

1

86

1932

1947

4

Home Run

Baker

6

2

1

0

1

79

1908

1922

5

Heine

Groh

6

1

1

2

0

75

1912

1927

 

   

 

     

 

   

 

6

Bob

Elliott

5

1

2

0

0

65

1939

1953

7

Jimmy

Collins

2

6

0

1

0

59

1895

1908

8

Al

Rosen

4

1

1

0

0

51

1947

1956

9

John

McGraw

3

0

4

0

1

47

1891

1906

10

Ken

Boyer

0

5

2

0

1

46

1955

1969

 

   

 

     

 

   

 

11

Art

Devlin

3

1

1

1

1

44

1904

1913

12

Harlond

Clift

2

0

3

4

0

40

1934

1945

13

Bill

Bradley

3

0

2

0

0

38

1899

1915

14

Freddy

Lindstrom

2

2

0

1

0

36

1924

1936

15

Whitey

Kurowski

1

3

1

0

0

35

1941

1949

 

   

 

     

 

   

 

16

Mike

Higgins

2

1

0

2

3

34

1930

1946

17

Eddie

Yost

0

2

1

5

3

31

1944

1962

18

Larry

Gardner

0

0

4

3

2

24

1908

1924

18

George

Kell

0

1

3

2

1

24

1943

1957

18

Pepper

Martin

1

1

1

1

1

24

1928

1944

 

   

 

     

 

   

 

21

Red

Smith

0

1

3

2

0

23

1911

1919

21

Pinky

Whitney

0

2

1

2

1

23

1928

1939

23

Ray

Boone

0

2

2

0

0

22

1948

1960

24

Red

Rolfe

0

2

1

1

1

21

1931

1942

25

Jimmy

Johnston

1

1

0

1

1

20

1911

1926

 

              Hall of Famers in Gold, of course.  Two notes:

              1)  The totals for John McGraw and Jimmie Collins are adjusted to include their 19th century accomplishments, and

              2)  Two players on this list, Eddie Mathews and Ken Boyer, were still piling up YOPDI points after 1963. 

              In terms of Peak Value, these are the top third basemen of the 1900-1963 era:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Peak

1912

1

Home Run

Baker

10

130

.347

.404

.541

37.32

1960

2

Eddie

Mathews

39

124

.277

.397

.551

35.11

1953

3

Al

Rosen

43

145

.336

.422

.613

34.61

1938

4

Mel

Ott

36

116

.311

.442

.583

33.89

1917

5

Heine

Groh

1

53

.304

.385

.411

32.47

1919

6

Rogers

Hornsby

8

71

.318

.384

.430

30.60

1906

7

Art

Devlin

2

65

.299

.396

.390

30.26

1912

8

Heinie

Zimmerman

14

99

.372

.418

.571

29.37

1941

9

Cecil

Travis

7

101

.359

.410

.520

28.66

1945

10

Stan

Hack

2

43

.323

.420

.405

28.46

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1908

11

Tommy

Leach

5

41

.259

.324

.381

28.11

1903

12

Bill

Bradley

6

68

.313

.348

.496

28.06

1960

13

Ken

Boyer

32

97

.304

.370

.562

28.05

1903

14

Jimmy

Collins

5

72

.296

.329

.448

27.42

1928

15

Freddy

Lindstrom

14

107

.358

.383

.511

26.96

1900

16

John

McGraw

2

33

.344

.505

.416

26.51

1945

17

Whitey

Kurowski

21

102

.323

.383

.511

26.25

1948

18

Bob

Elliott

23

100

.283

.423

.474

26.01

1921

19

Frankie

Frisch

8

100

.341

.384

.485

25.98

1906

20

Harry

Steinfeldt

3

83

.327

.395

.430

25.93

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1937

21

Harlond

Clift

29

118

.306

.413

.546

25.93

1908

22

Hans

Lobert

4

63

.293

.348

.407

25.51

1914

23

Ed

Lennox

11

84

.312

.414

.493

25.03

1927

24

Pie

Traynor

5

106

.342

.370

.455

24.81

1951

25

Eddie

Yost

12

65

.283

.423

.424

24.75

1963

26

Ron

Santo

25

99

.297

.339

.481

24.72

1902

27

Lave

Cross

0

108

.342

.374

.440

24.46

1910

28

Bobby

Byrne

2

52

.296

.366

.417

24.38

1928

29

Jimmie

Foxx

13

79

.327

.416

.547

24.36

1939

30

Red

Rolfe

14

80

.329

.404

.495

24.36

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1962

31

Brooks

Robinson

23

86

.303

.342

.486

24.22

1951

32

Bobby

Thomson

32

101

.293

.385

.562

24.05

1913

33

Red

Smith

6

76

.296

.358

.441

23.92

1912

34

Larry

Gardner

3

86

.315

.383

.449

23.83

1953

35

Ray

Boone

26

114

.296

.390

.519

23.81

1949

36

George

Kell

3

59

.343

.424

.467

23.70

1911

37

Harry

Lord

3

61

.321

.364

.433

23.61

1919

38

Buck

Weaver

3

75

.296

.315

.401

23.59

1940

39

Bill

Werber

12

48

.277

.361

.416

23.51

1948

40

Johnny

Pesky

3

55

.281

.394

.365

23.09

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1914

41

Bill

McKechnie

2

38

.304

.368

.377

23.05

1942

42

Arky

Vaughan

2

49

.277

.348

.341

22.89

1933

43

Pepper

Martin

8

57

.316

.387

.456

22.27

1939

44

Buddy

Lewis

10

75

.319

.402

.478

22.15

1948

45

Andy

Pafko

26

101

.312

.375

.516

22.13

1962

46

Don

Demeter

29

107

.307

.359

.520

22.13

1951

47

Minnie

Minoso

10

76

.326

.422

.500

22.11

1934

48

Mike

Higgins

16

90

.330

.392

.508

21.98

1906

49

Jim

Delahanty

1

39

.280

.371

.364

21.94

1963

50

Pete

Ward

22

84

.295

.353

.482

21.93

 

              A couple of players on this list—Brooks Robinson and Ron Santo—will have higher peaks post-1963. 

              There are numerous players on the peak value list who were not career third basemen, but who played third for a year or two and played well enough there to rank.   Among these are Mel Ott (4th), Rogers Hornsby (6th), Cecil Travis (9th), Frankie Frisch (19th), Jimmie Foxx (29th), Bobby Thomson (32nd), Buck Weaver (38th), Johnny Pesky (40th), Arky Vaughan (42nd), Andy Pafko (45th), Don Demeter (46th), Minnie Minoso (47th), and Jim Delahanty (49th). 

              I probably should fix the formulas so that the Federal League one-year stars don’t appear on this list.  Ken Keltner, although regarded by some as a major star, actually does not make either of these two lists—the top 25 in Years of Position Dominance, or the top 50 in Peak Value. 

 

88.  King Richard the Controversial

              In 1964 the two Most Valuable Players, Brooks Robinson in the American League and Ken Boyer in the National League, were both third basemen.   In my system, they rank third and fourth at the position. 

              One of the two men ranked ahead of them, Ron Santo, is not too surprising.   Santo in 1964 hit .313, hit 30 homers, drove in 114 runs, drew 86 walks and won a Gold Glove.    He had 33 doubles and 13 triples.   It’s a lot to sell—buttressed by almost equally strong seasons in 1963 and 1965.   It’s not too controversial that he would rate ahead of the MVPs. 

              Dick Allen, on the other hand, will kick up some dust.  Nobody could kick up dust like Richie Allen.  

              I’d explain it this way:  they had an opinion; we have an opinion.  The opinions of MVP voters—and all other contemporary observers—are entitled to respect, because they knew millions of things about these players that we have since lost.   They saw them run the bases; they saw them throw the ball from third to first.   They saw them hustle; they saw them loaf.  They talked to them after the game.  They saw them shorten up and go to the opposite field; they saw them lunge for pitches they should have taken. They had information that doesn’t exist anymore.  Their summation of that information is entitled to respect.

              But we are also entitled to look again at the evidence that we have, so let’s do that.  

              Hits:

              Dick Allen                         201

              Brooks Robinson            194

              Ken Boyer                         185

 

              Doubles:

              Dick Allen                         38

              Brooks Robinson            35

              Ken Boyer                         30

 

              Triples:

              Dick Allen                         13

              Ken Boyer                         10

              Brooks Robinson               3

 

              Home Runs:

              Dick Allen                         29

              Brooks Robinson            28

              Ken Boyer                         24

 

              Walks:

              Ken Boyer                         70

              Dick Allen                         67

              Brooks Robinson            51

 

              Allen didn’t do more of something than the MVPs; he did more of everything, or more of each thing. . ..more hits, more doubles, more triples, more homers.  He did have three fewer walks than Ken Boyer.   He didn’t do these things because he had more at bats; he did have a few more at bats, but not really.   He had 632 at bats, to 628 for Boyer and 612 for Robinson.   Stolen bases are really nothing; 3 for Allen, 3 for Boyer, 1 for Robinson.  Allen was a vastly better baserunner, at that point in his career, than either Boyer or Robinson.  Robby was slow; Boyer was a good runner when he was younger but was 33 by then.   Allen was 3/7 stealing bases in 1964 but 15 for 17 in 1965.   Allen, whatever his faults, was a tremendous baserunner.   Allen grounded into 8 double plays, as opposed to 17 for Robinson and 22 for Boyer.  Allen made fewer outs than either Robinson or Boyer.

              Park effects?   St. Louis (Boyer) had a Park Run Index of 127, Baltimore (Robinson) of 108, and Philadelphia (Allen) of 96.   Allen was the only one playing in a pitcher’s park.  The National League ERA and runs scored were slightly lower than the American League, providing Allen with another small statistical edge over Robinson.  Even the team performance does not, on a superficial level, weigh heavily in favor of the MVPs; the Cardinals won 93 games and the pennant to the Phillies’ 92 games, one game back. 

              In looking at all of these facts, then, Allen does not come out slightly ahead of Robinson or Boyer; he comes out far ahead—so far ahead that it much more than overcomes the inherent disadvantages that a rookie has in this analytical structure.  Baseball Reference has Allen at 8.8 WAR, third in the league behind Willie Mays and Ron Santo, but far ahead of Boyer at 6.1.  Robinson led the American League, but with 8.1.

              Why, then, did Allen finish 7th in the MVP voting? 

              I don’t think controversy had much to do with it.  The controversies about Dick Allen really started in July, 1965, when he had a fight with a teammate.   I don’t remember there being a lot of concern about Allen’s behavior in 1964.  

              There are four things:   Leadership, Defense, Clutch Hitting and Team Performance.   Let’s leave Brooks Robinson out of it, because that’s really a different argument, since Allen and Robinson were in different leagues and not directly competing for the same award.  

              Leadership.   Late in 1963, with the Cardinals in a pennant race against the Dodgers, I remember reading newspaper articles saying that "Ken Boyer has become the leader of the Cardinals."  Of course, Stan Musial had been the leader of the Cardinals for more than 15 years, but with Musial in his 40s and near retirement, Boyer became the veteran leader of the team.  When the team won the pennant in 1964, Boyer received some of the credit for that.  I don’t know whether the BBWAA voters of 1964 believed more in veteran leadership than we do now or less, but I certainly do think that belief in Boyer’s leadership had something to do with the way the vote went.  I don’t know whether this is proper or improper.

              Defense.  Boyer won five Gold Gloves (1958-59-60-61-63); ironically 1964 was the year in which he surrendered the Gold Glove to Ron Santo.   Allen was never a good defensive third baseman.   Allen committed 17 more errors than Boyer in 1964 (41-24), and Boyer had 12 more assists.   Allen did have 23 more putouts.  I do believe that Boyer was a better defensive third baseman in 1964 than Allen was, but I also believe that the media in that era focused on errors, and sometimes exaggerated their significance. 

              Clutch Hitting. Probably the one largest reason that Boyer won the MVP Award in 1964 is that he led the league in RBI, with 119, 28 more than Allen.  In that era, when no records were published of batting with runners in scoring position or opportunities with runners in scoring position, RBI were routinely equated with clutch performance, and the league leader in RBI was often the MVP.

              But looking at the facts. . . Allen hit .306 with the bases empty, .335 with men on base, although "only" .301 with runners in scoring position.   Allen homered a little more often with men on base than with the bases empty.   Boyer hit .269 with the bases empty, .319 with men on base, and .321 with runners in scoring position, and also homered a little more often with men on base than with the bases empty, although Allen homered more often than Boyer both with the bases empty and with men on base.  

              Dick Allen hit .385 in the late innings of close games; Boyer, .333.  The real difference, though, is that Boyer batted 193 times with runners in scoring position, whereas Allen batted only 147 times with runners in scoring position—a 31% advantage for Boyer, which led to a 31% advantage in RBI.  

              It is my opinion that Boyer won the MVP Award in 1964 substantially because of the exaggerated importance given to RBI.   The NL leader in RBI won the MVP Award in 1957, 1958, 1959, 1964, 1967 and 1969; the AL leader in RBI took home the Award in 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1964, 1966, 1967 and 1969.   Some of those players were deserving of the Award; some of them may not have been.  It was just the thinking of the time.

              Team Performance.   The Phillies collapse/Cardinals streak to the pennant, of course, hurt the Phillies and helped the Cardinals in the MVP voting.   If the Phillies had won, I believe that Johnny Callison would have been the MVP.  

              Dick Allen hit .341 in September-October, 1964, scoring 28 runs in 33 games.  Boyer hit .270 in September-October, 1964, but did drive in 26 runs in 32 games. 

 

              Well. . .you can think whatever you want to think about Allen ranking ahead of the MVPs.  I’m not trying to convince you; I am just trying to explain why the calculations come out the way they do. 

              Allen had his problems; Dick Allen was either a troubled personality or a troublemaker, depending on which way you want to see it.   He was not a team-oriented player, but he was a historic talent.  As a hitter, Dick Allen was on the same level as Henry Aaron, Willie Mays and Joe DiMaggio.  When he was good, he was really, really good:

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1964

1

Dick

Allen

29

91

.318

.382

.557

35.81

1964

2

Ron

Santo

30

114

.312

.398

.564

30.99

1964

3

Brooks

Robinson

28

118

.317

.368

.521

28.52

1964

4

Ken

Boyer

24

119

.295

.365

.489

23.68

1964

5

Pete

Ward

23

94

.282

.348

.473

23.61

1964

6

Eddie

Mathews

23

74

.233

.344

.412

23.50

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1965

1

Dick

Allen

20

85

.302

.375

.494

34.70

1965

2

Ron

Santo

33

101

.285

.378

.510

32.38

1965

3

Brooks

Robinson

18

80

.297

.351

.445

26.95

1965

4

Jim Ray

Hart

23

96

.299

.349

.487

25.20

1965

5

Deron

Johnson

32

130

.287

.340

.515

23.27

1965

6

Eddie

Mathews

32

95

.251

.341

.469

21.70

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1966

1

Dick

Allen

40

110

.317

.396

.632

37.83

1966

2

Ron

Santo

30

94

.312

.412

.538

32.34

1966

3

Harmon

Killebrew

39

110

.281

.391

.538

30.84

1966

4

Jim Ray

Hart

33

93

.285

.342

.510

26.12

1966

5

Brooks

Robinson

23

100

.269

.333

.444

25.66

1966

6

Joe

Foy

15

63

.262

.364

.413

18.64

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1967

1

Dick

Allen

23

77

.307

.404

.566

38.08

1967

2

Ron

Santo

31

98

.300

.395

.512

33.67

1967

3

Jim Ray

Hart

29

99

.289

.373

.509

26.19

1967

4

Brooks

Robinson

22

77

.269

.328

.434

24.12

1967

5

Tony

Perez

26

102

.290

.328

.490

20.69

1967

6

Maury

Wills

3

45

.302

.334

.365

20.05

 

              I know that some people believe that Brooks Robinson was the greatest third baseman in baseball history; I know that because, in the last week, two people on Twitter have told me that they believe that Brooks Robinson was the greatest third baseman in baseball history.  To me, saying that Brooks was the greatest third baseman in history is just like saying that Pie Traynor was the greatest third baseman in baseball history.   It’s OK with me if you want to say that, but I don’t see any evidence to support your case. 

              Defense is always popular with the coach mentality.  Defense wins championships; it is the cliché recited by parents in the Progressive Insurance commercial.  Defense is inherently difficult to measure, in all sports, and this enables casual analysts to defend any proposition they choose to advocate by waving the word "Defense" as if it was a magic wand that guarded all the doors. 

 

89. The Time of Four Emperors

              In Roman history the year 69 AD is known as the Year of Four Emperors, as Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian took control from one another in quick order.  (193 AD is known as the Year of Five Emperors, but that’s a different thing.)  In 1968 Dick Allen went to left field, and the Phillies moved the 33-year-old veteran infielder Tony Taylor to third base.

              A word about the scale.  A score of "20". . .a "value" of 20. . .represents a relatively good player, but a very, very weak #1.   A score of "25" indicates a sort of normal first-place player or a little bit weak, but Pie Traynor and George Kell never reached a peak value of 25, and they’re in the Hall of Fame.  A score of "30" indicates a strong first-place player, while a score of "35" indicates a player of historic stature.  

              Dick Allen’s scores as a third baseman in 1966-67 were the highest in the history of the game up to that point.  This fact is a little bit misleading, as we are using a 162-game standard after 1961 and a 154-game standard before then, but that’s a detail, not a denial of the fact that our system shows Allen performing at a historic level.

              We have, then, a problematic contrast:  that our system shows Dick Allen to have been the greatest third baseman in half a century, or near to that, while the Phillies chose to play an aging second baseman at third base.  In part we can mitigate this discrepancy by pointing out that Allen’s value was not in his glove, but in his bat.   When he went to left field, he was still in the batting lineup.  Part of the real explanation is the complicated drama of Allen’s volatile personality—and 1968 was a very odd year, a very intense year.  You can make of this what you want; I am merely acknowledging the problem.

              Once Allen was out of the position, we went through a quick succession of third base emperors.   The position was not weak; it was relatively strong.  Two of the #1 third basemen of that era, Harmon Killebrew in 1969 and Joe Torre in 1971, were Most Valuable Players—and they were not weak MVPs, they were strong MVPs.  While Tony Perez in 1970 did not win the Most Valuable Player Award, he did have a season of comparable quality, and was third in the MVP voting. 

              But while Killebrew, Perez and Torre were really great hitters in those seasons, they were not really third basemen.  They were guys that you had to play somewhere, and they could play third if need be.    Darrell Evans, who came to the top in 1973 and might have stayed there had it not been for the emergence of the next generation, was a real third baseman; he was an excellent defensive third baseman and a hitter ahead of his time.  He was what we now dream of finding: a left-handed hitter with great natural plate discipline and near-optimal launch angles.  A player of ordinary ability, he hit the ball in the air 300 times a year, probably, reaching the seats often enough that his walks, homers and fielding made a valuable combination.  He was Eddie Mathews-Light, but with a better glove.  

              There were many other good third basemen in this era.   Sal Bando was excellent, Graig Nettles was, Bill Melton, Brooks Robinson was still around, Doug Rader, Don Money, Richie Hebner, Rico Petrocelli, Santo was still around (and drove in 123 runs in 1969).  Jim Ray Hart could hit; Aurelio Rodriguez and Clete Boyer were brilliant fielders.  The position was very, very deep—but the emperors were on a short rotation:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1968

1

Ron

Santo

26

98

.246

.354

.421

28.91

1968

2

Tony

Perez

18

92

.282

.338

.430

25.21

1968

3

Brooks

Robinson

17

75

.253

.304

.416

23.26

1968

4

Ken

McMullen

20

62

.248

.326

.382

21.68

1968

5

Cesar

Tovar

6

47

.272

.326

.372

21.52

1968

6

Jim Ray

Hart

23

78

.258

.323

.444

20.89

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1969

1

Harmon

Killebrew

49

140

.276

.427

.584

30.28

1969

2

Tony

Perez

37

122

.294

.357

.526

29.26

1969

3

Ron

Santo

29

123

.289

.384

.485

25.83

1969

4

Sal

Bando

31

113

.281

.400

.484

24.64

1969

5

Ken

McMullen

19

87

.272

.349

.425

20.80

1969

6

Brooks

Robinson

23

84

.234

.298

.395

20.37

1969

7

Denis

Menke

10

90

.269

.369

.387

20.14

1969

8

Bill

Melton

23

87

.255

.326

.433

19.06

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1970

1

Tony

Perez

40

129

.317

.401

.589

30.17

1970

2

Harmon

Killebrew

41

113

.271

.411

.546

28.09

1970

3

Sal

Bando

20

75

.263

.407

.430

23.00

1970

4

Ron

Santo

26

114

.267

.369

.476

21.64

1970

5

Brooks

Robinson

18

94

.276

.335

.429

20.89

1970

6

Bob

Bailey

28

84

.287

.407

.597

20.81

1970

7

Bill

Melton

33

96

.263

.340

.488

20.74

1970

8

Denis

Menke

13

92

.304

.392

.441

20.60

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1971

1

Joe

Torre

24

137

.363

.421

.555

31.65

1971

2

Dick

Allen

23

90

.295

.395

.468

29.76

1971

3

Tony

Perez

25

91

.269

.325

.438

27.11

1971

4

Rico

Petrocelli

28

89

.251

.354

.461

25.75

1971

5

Sal

Bando

24

94

.271

.377

.452

23.60

1971

6

Graig

Nettles

28

86

.261

.350

.435

22.76

1971

7

Bill

Melton

33

86

.269

.352

.492

21.72

1971

8

Richie

Hebner

17

67

.271

.326

.487

20.72

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1972

1

Joe

Torre

11

81

.289

.357

.419

23.27

1972

2

Richie

Hebner

19

72

.300

.378

.508

23.14

1972

3

Darrell

Evans

19

71

.254

.384

.419

22.40

1972

4

Sal

Bando

15

77

.236

.341

.368

22.12

1972

5

Graig

Nettles

17

70

.253

.325

.395

22.06

1972

6

Rico

Petrocelli

15

75

.240

.339

.363

21.54

1972

7

Doug

Rader

22

90

.237

.309

.425

20.43

1972

8

Ron

Santo

17

74

.302

.391

.487

19.09

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1973

1

Darrell

Evans

41

104

.281

.403

.556

27.80

1973

2

Sal

Bando

29

98

.287

.375

.498

24.20

1973

3

Richie

Hebner

25

74

.271

.346

.477

22.08

1973

4

Graig

Nettles

22

81

.234

.334

.386

20.99

1973

5

Bob

Bailey

26

86

.273

.379

.489

20.57

1973

6

Bill

Melton

20

87

.277

.362

.439

19.84

1973

7

Doug

Rader

21

89

.254

.310

.409

19.49

1973

8

Don

Money

11

61

.284

.347

.401

18.39

 

 

90.  The Red-Headed Stranger

              As a rookie in 1973 Mike Schmidt hit .196—but with a secondary average of .367.  My friend Dick Cramer has always claimed that he said in 1973 that Mike Schmidt would be the greatest third baseman in baseball history.   He struck out a lot, but his speed, defense, power and walks would ultimately prove Cramer right:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1974

1

Mike

Schmidt

36

116

.282

.395

.546

31.11

1974

2

Darrell

Evans

25

79

.240

.381

.419

26.88

1974

3

Sal

Bando

22

103

.243

.352

.426

22.44

1974

4

Graig

Nettles

22

75

.246

.316

.403

22.17

1974

5

Richie

Hebner

18

68

.291

.363

.449

21.47

1974

6

Ron

Cey

18

97

.262

.349

.397

21.03

1974

7

Don

Money

15

65

.283

.346

.415

19.63

1974

8

Toby

Harrah

21

74

.260

.319

.417

19.18

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1975

1

Mike

Schmidt

38

95

.249

.367

.523

30.44

1975

2

Pete

Rose

7

74

.317

.406

.432

29.42

1975

3

Bill

Madlock

7

64

.354

.402

.479

24.67

1975

4

Darrell

Evans

22

73

.243

.361

.406

24.55

1975

5

George

Brett

11

89

.308

.353

.456

23.56

1975

6

Ron

Cey

25

101

.283

.372

.473

23.29

1975

7

Graig

Nettles

21

91

.267

.322

.430

22.85

1975

8

Toby

Harrah

20

93

.293

.403

.458

22.37

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1976

1

Mike

Schmidt

38

107

.262

.376

.524

33.29

1976

2

George

Brett

7

67

.333

.377

.462

29.20

1976

3

Pete

Rose

10

63

.323

.404

.450

28.85

1976

4

Graig

Nettles

32

93

.254

.327

.475

25.17

1976

5

Bill

Madlock

15

84

.339

.412

.500

24.66

1976

6

Ron

Cey

23

80

.277

.386

.462

23.13

1976

7

Toby

Harrah

15

67

.260

.360

.377

20.79

1976

8

Sal

Bando

27

84

.240

.335

.427

20.55

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1977

1

Mike

Schmidt

38

101

.274

.393

.574

32.03

1977

2

George

Brett

22

88

.312

.373

.532

30.52

1977

3

Pete

Rose

9

64

.311

.377

.432

25.95

1977

4

Graig

Nettles

37

107

.255

.333

.496

23.20

1977

5

Ron

Cey

30

110

.241

.347

.450

22.63

1977

6

Toby

Harrah

27

87

.263

.393

.479

22.38

1977

7

Bill

Madlock

12

46

.302

.360

.426

20.95

1977

8

Butch

Hobson

30

112

.265

.300

.489

19.26

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1978

1

George

Brett

9

62

.294

.342

.467

30.24

1978

2

Mike

Schmidt

21

78

.251

.364

.435

29.57

1978

3

Pete

Rose

7

52

.302

.362

.421

25.94

1978

4

Ron

Cey

23

84

.270

.380

.452

22.86

1978

5

Darrell

Evans

20

78

.243

.360

.404

22.55

1978

6

Doug

DeCinces

28

80

.286

.346

.526

20.28

1978

7

Toby

Harrah

12

59

.229

.349

.360

19.81

1978

8

Larry

Parrish

15

70

.277

.321

.454

19.52

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1979

1

Mike

Schmidt

45

114

.253

.386

.564

32.96

1979

2

George

Brett

23

107

.329

.376

.563

32.67

1979

3

Darrell

Evans

17

70

.253

.356

.391

23.27

1979

4

Ron

Cey

28

81

.281

.389

.499

21.89

1979

5

Buddy

Bell

18

101

.299

.327

.451

21.51

1979

6

Toby

Harrah

20

77

.279

.389

.444

21.39

1979

7

Larry

Parrish

30

82

.307

.357

.551

21.28

1979

8

Bill

Madlock

14

85

.298

.355

.437

20.87

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1980

1

Mike

Schmidt

48

121

.286

.380

.624

36.25

1980

2

George

Brett

24

118

.390

.454

.664

34.93

1980

3

Darrell

Evans

20

78

.264

.359

.414

24.82

1980

4

Buddy

Bell

17

83

.329

.379

.498

22.04

1980

5

Bob

Horner

35

89

.268

.307

.529

21.28

1980

6

Toby

Harrah

11

72

.267

.379

.380

21.22

1980

7

Ron

Cey

28

77

.254

.342

.452

20.48

1980

8

Bill

Madlock

10

53

.277

.341

.399

18.65

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1981

1

Mike

Schmidt

31

91

.316

.435

.644

37.57

1981

2

George

Brett

6

43

.314

.361

.484

26.26

1981

3

Darrell

Evans

12

48

.258

.356

.417

21.87

1981

4

Toby

Harrah

5

44

.291

.382

.388

20.19

1981

5

Bill

Madlock

6

45

.341

.412

.495

20.00

1981

6

Carney

Lansford

4

52

.336

.389

.439

19.80

1981

7

Buddy

Bell

10

64

.294

.364

.428

19.57

1981

8

Doug

DeCinces

13

55

.263

.341

.454

18.83

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1982

1

Mike

Schmidt

35

87

.280

.403

.547

37.05

1982

2

George

Brett

21

82

.301

.378

.505

27.46

1982

3

Paul

Molitor

19

71

.302

.366

.450

25.68

1982

4

Doug

DeCinces

30

97

.301

.369

.548

23.33

1982

5

Darrell

Evans

16

61

.256

.360

.419

22.28

1982

6

Toby

Harrah

25

78

.304

.398

.490

21.78

1982

7

Bill

Madlock

19

95

.319

.368

.488

21.59

1982

8

Bob

Horner

32

97

.261

.350

.501

20.88

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1983

1

Mike

Schmidt

40

109

.255

.399

.524

34.15

1983

2

Pedro

Guerrero

32

103

.298

.373

.531

30.22

1983

3

Wade

Boggs

5

74

.361

.444

.486

29.60

1983

4

George

Brett

25

93

.310

.385

.562

26.72

1983

5

Paul

Molitor

15

47

.270

.333

.410

22.02

1983

6

Doug

DeCinces

18

65

.281

.332

.495

20.03

1983

7

Ron

Cey

24

90

.275

.346

.460

19.64

1983

8

Buddy

Bell

14

66

.277

.332

.411

19.40

 

              In 1980, as had happened in 1964, the two Most Valuable Players were both third basemen.  In 1980 they met in the World Series.  It is a reasonable argument, at least, that the greatest third baseman in the game’s history went head-to-head with the second-greatest, and I will note also that Brett’s post-season performance was far better than Schmidt’s, with Brett having a 1.024 OPS in 43 post-season games, and Schmidt a .690 OPS in 36 post-season games.   At the time I would never have agreed that Schmidt was truly ahead of Brett, but:

              a)  I was a Royals fan,

              b)  Things were not as clear, in the midst of the battle, as they are in retrospect,

              c)  After all these years it doesn’t seem to matter.

              George Brett has aged well.  He can still be seen around Kansas City.  He shows up at Jayhawk basketball games sometimes, dropped by the Red Sox table at a restaurant at the Winter Meetings to say hello to his old friend Allard Baird.  George always projected a sense of the joy of life. He wasn’t a guy who hid in hotel rooms before and after games; he was out there—but he had the sense not to get married until he was ready to get married and settle down, and he had the sense to get married and settle down once he decided to do that.  He has lived his life with joy and dignity.  It is not an easy thing to do. 

 

91.  Chicken Man

              Wade Boggs hit .349 as a rookie in 1982, and by 1984 was the #1 third baseman in baseball, although Mike Schmidt did have an MVP season left (1986).   Although Howard Johnson was really Boggs’ equal toward the end of that period, we could say that the Wade Boggs era lasted until 1991:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1984

1

Wade

Boggs

6

55

.325

.407

.416

30.08

1984

2

Mike

Schmidt

36

106

.277

.383

.536

29.66

1984

3

Pedro

Guerrero

16

72

.303

.358

.462

27.69

1984

4

George

Brett

13

69

.284

.344

.459

24.48

1984

5

Carney

Lansford

14

74

.300

.342

.439

21.96

1984

6

Buddy

Bell

11

83

.315

.382

.458

20.81

1984

7

Doug

DeCinces

20

82

.269

.327

.431

19.85

1984

8

Tim

Wallach

18

72

.246

.311

.395

19.19

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1985

1

Wade

Boggs

8

78

.368

.450

.478

32.38

1985

2

George

Brett

30

112

.335

.436

.585

30.48

1985

3

Tim

Wallach

22

81

.260

.310

.450

21.41

1985

4

Paul

Molitor

10

48

.297

.356

.408

20.23

1985

5

Carney

Lansford

13

46

.277

.311

.429

18.99

1985

6

Gary

Gaetti

20

63

.246

.301

.409

18.88

1985

7

Jim

Presley

28

84

.275

.324

.484

18.79

1985

8

Brook

Jacoby

20

87

.274

.324

.426

18.49

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1986

1

Wade

Boggs

8

71

.357

.453

.486

35.04

1986

2

Mike

Schmidt

37

119

.290

.390

.547

28.36

1986

3

George

Brett

16

73

.290

.401

.481

24.28

1986

4

Gary

Gaetti

34

108

.287

.347

.518

22.24

1986

5

Paul

Molitor

9

55

.281

.340

.426

20.80

1986

6

Carney

Lansford

19

72

.284

.332

.421

20.24

1986

7

Brook

Jacoby

17

80

.288

.350

.441

19.93

1986

8

Jim

Presley

27

107

.265

.303

.463

19.68

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1987

1

Wade

Boggs

24

89

.363

.461

.588

33.56

1987

2

Mike

Schmidt

35

113

.293

.388

.548

25.23

1987

3

Tim

Wallach

26

123

.298

.343

.514

23.40

1987

4

Howard

Johnson

36

99

.265

.364

.504

22.83

1987

5

Gary

Gaetti

31

109

.257

.303

.485

21.95

1987

6

Carney

Lansford

19

76

.289

.366

.455

21.52

1987

7

Kevin

Seitzer

15

83

.323

.399

.470

20.44

1987

8

Brook

Jacoby

32

69

.300

.387

.541

19.77

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1988

1

Wade

Boggs

5

58

.366

.476

.490

31.62

1988

2

Paul

Molitor

13

60

.312

.384

.452

27.61

1988

3

Howard

Johnson

24

68

.230

.343

.422

24.98

1988

4

Bobby

Bonilla

24

100

.274

.366

.476

23.66

1988

5

Kevin

Mitchell

19

80

.251

.319

.442

23.36

1988

6

Pedro

Guerrero

10

65

.286

.367

.418

23.01

1988

7

Gary

Gaetti

28

88

.301

.353

.551

22.33

1988

8

Kevin

Seitzer

5

60

.304

.387

.406

21.47

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1989

1

Howard

Johnson

36

101

.287

.369

.559

31.49

1989

2

Wade

Boggs

3

54

.330

.430

.449

29.16

1989

3

Paul

Molitor

11

56

.315

.379

.439

27.78

1989

4

Bobby

Bonilla

24

86

.281

.358

.490

25.67

1989

5

Kelly

Gruber

18

73

.290

.328

.448

21.62

1989

6

Kevin

Seitzer

4

48

.281

.387

.337

21.20

1989

7

Ken

Caminiti

10

72

.255

.316

.369

21.16

1989

8

Tim

Wallach

13

77

.277

.341

.419

20.66

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1990

1

Howard

Johnson

23

90

.244

.319

.434

26.16

1990

2

Wade

Boggs

6

63

.302

.386

.418

25.62

1990

3

Kelly

Gruber

31

118

.274

.330

.512

23.16

1990

4

Matt

Williams

33

122

.277

.319

.488

22.99

1990

5

Chris

Sabo

25

71

.270

.343

.476

21.19

1990

6

Tim

Wallach

21

98

.296

.339

.471

20.82

1990

7

Tony

Phillips

8

55

.251

.364

.351

20.63

1990

8

Kevin

Seitzer

6

38

.275

.346

.370

19.53

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1991

1

Wade

Boggs

8

51

.332

.421

.460

24.30

1991

2

Terry

Pendleton

22

86

.319

.363

.517

23.90

1991

3

Howard

Johnson

38

117

.259

.342

.535

23.63

1991

4

Tony

Phillips

17

72

.284

.371

.438

23.19

1991

5

Robin

Ventura

23

100

.284

.367

.442

23.19

1991

6

Chris

Sabo

26

88

.301

.354

.505

21.93

1991

7

Matt

Williams

34

98

.268

.310

.499

21.35

1991

8

Edgar

Martinez

14

52

.307

.405

.452

19.62

 

 

 

 
 

COMMENTS (39 Comments, most recent shown first)

Arrojo
Speaking of a star being underappreciated by his hometown, Red Sox fans never embraced Wade Boggs as the superstar he was. I remember the nitwits on sports talk radio would actually criticize him for walking too much - especially in big situations "always leaving it up to the next guy". He was somewhat of an aloof personality, always talked about himself in the third person and got into some odd situations (I think he broke a rib while removing one of his boots).

Of course, the last straw was going to the Yankees and then seeing him celebrate the World Championship on a horse in his first year with them. But BoSox fan indifference to him had been well entrenched by then.
4:34 PM Jan 31st
 
Marc Schneider
I've always found it interesting how underrated Eddie Mathews has been. He was a truly great player, especially in the fifties. I guess the fact that he tailed off quite a bit after age 30 had something to do with it.
2:04 PM Jan 29th
 
jaybracken
I still feel cheated that Boggs didn't get called up until he was 24 - he had hit .300 or better for 5 full years in the minors before they brought him up. A few more seasons in the majors, and he might just be talked about with Schmidt as the best.
1:19 PM Jan 22nd
 
MarisFan61
.....and as I think we saw with Piazza, it also requires a certain specific kind of footwork and agility; we could almost call it a certain kind of choreography. I think that was essentially Piazza's issue there; I'd love for anyone who saw it more (and who knows more!) to comment.

I don't mean it's anything comparable to the footwork/agility that are needed for the keystone positions -- nor necessarily for catcher!! -- just that it's a specific kind, and that it can't be assumed. I don't think there's much reason to think Luzinski would have been any better at it than Piazza -- I think he would have been worse -- in addition to what Riceman said.
11:00 AM Jan 22nd
 
Riceman1974
Luzinski would've been a disaster at first base. First base doesn't require much, but it does need a guy with good hands. The Bull had the worst hands of any player I ever saw. A team can live with slow and no arm at first base, but it can't survive with band hands at first, not when those hands need to make 1500 plays.

Underrated hitter. At his height he'd hit .300 with 35 homers and a .400 OBP. One of the prettiest swings ever, and he did an enormous amount of charity work in Philly, totally on his own and with his own money. A class act.
7:23 AM Jan 22nd
 
LesLein
The Phillies moved Allen to LF in 1968 because of a hand injury. He accidentally pushed it through a headlight while working on his car. After that his throwing wasn't good enough for 3B.

In the minors Luzinski started out at 1B. He missed most of a season because of a knee injury. The Phillies thought LF would cause less wear on his knee.
7:57 PM Jan 21st
 
MarisFan61
Herb: My impression of Lonnie Smith in the field is that he was an OK fielder who just fell down a lot. :-)
(and despite falling down a lot)

(Which I know might be reminiscent of, but not as bad as, Carmelo Martinez countering the criticism of him as an outfielder by saying he only had trouble with fly balls.)

Anyway I'd be surprised if he was ever a less-good outfielder than Luzinski, but I can't say I saw either of them in that time.
4:16 PM Jan 21st
 
brian14leonard
Re Nettles: Interesting that he completely drops off the list after '77, even though he seemed to have had one of his best years in '78. (And of course his defensive play in the Series that year was terrific.)
12:28 PM Jan 21st
 
HerbOf4
Lifelong Phillies fan here.

Yeah, Schmidt was really something special and, oddly, his real value (even in his so-called "down years") tended to reveal itself in the table top and dice games I started playing around that time. You guys are right that Phillies fans never really embraced him until later. I think it was the strikeouts, errors and the low BA more than his attitude, along with all the post season failures. Philly fans like grit, toughness and hustle - think Pete Rose, Tug McGraw and Lenny Dykstra - and Schmidt was always a more slick and cool sort. It's hard to explain.

Regarding Luzinski, I agree. Moving him to 1B would have made a lot of sense but, man, if there was ever such a thing as a born DH, it was the Bull and I think he suffered more than anyone in the NL that he had to play the field. I went back and looked at his hitting stats during the Phil's heyday in the mid to late 70's and was surprised at how much Greg could really swat and absolutely mash the baseball, which he continued to do well into the 80's as a DH in the AL.

Even weirder is that for a while there the Phils were trying to figure out a way to work Lonnie Smith into the lineup and, somehow, he was an even WORSE outfielder than Luzinski was.
11:59 AM Jan 21st
 
DaveNJnews
The reason I would have thought Luzinski was a candidate to move to first is that his greatest weakness as an outfielder seemed to be his lack of speed - he just couldn't get to the ball. Generally, he caught the thing if it were hit to him.
11:34 AM Jan 21st
 
wilbur
My favorite snarky remark by Bill James about a player - in this instance, Ron Cey - was to the effect of that Cey did not as much move towards a ball as melt towards it. Now that's low mobility.

I did a quick search of my 80's Baseball Abstracts but couldn't find it.
3:48 PM Jan 20th
 
MarisFan61
re Nettles9: Graig was in a tough peer group, wasn't he....
But still -- I'm very surprised he doesn't come out better too.

Depending on how strongly we want to take the results of this approach -- and I'm guessing Bill himself wouldn't go strictly by it -- should we be ready to say that Nettles was below Darrell Evans (I think many would have already said that), Bando, and Hebner, or at least not particularly above them?
I wouldn't -- I'd still consider him at least a little above all of them -- but that's what seems to be suggested.

11:04 AM Jan 20th
 
MarisFan61
Wilbur: "Foul" was indeed an admirable bit of elegance. :-)
10:56 AM Jan 20th
 
Manushfan
I was a bit surprised that Ray Knight didn't sneak into the rankings around 79 or so. Tough competition.​
10:39 AM Jan 20th
 
nettles9
I thought Nettles would do a little better. Oh, well, that’s the way it goes, sometimes.
7:03 AM Jan 20th
 
wilbur
Maris, I agree ... first base is much more challenging a position than left field, or to put it another way, you can only foul up your own position in left field. You get more chances to foul up other positions at first base. My choice of the word "foul" was for those under the age of 18.

It's funny, I still think of Richie Hebner as a third baseman and not as a first baseman. Tough hitter, seemed to kill the Cubs.
5:57 AM Jan 20th
 
MarisFan61
Dave: About not moving Luzinski to 1B:

I think you're making a wrong assumption, which is an easy wrong assumption to make.
It's easy to assume that anyone can play first base, and more generally, that a player will have an easier time (and do less harm) if he moves leftward on the defensive spectrum.
(BTW I can never remember which side of the spectrum is which. I always have to re-look it up when I'm going to say anything about it, and I just did.)

It doesn't necessarily work that way. Speaking as one whose default in understanding a situation like this is to look first to what the team actually did and making whatever sense of it that I can (I think this isn't enough of a default among the sabermetrically versed), I would tend to think that Luzinski just couldn't play first base adequately and that he would have hurt the team more there than in the outfield. I've got to believe that the idea of doing it occurred to them, and that it was for a good reason that they didn't do it.

I might not think so easily that such a possibility exists if not for having seen how it was when the Mets tried using Mike Piazza at 1B.
9:47 PM Jan 19th
 
BobGill
Rimus: If you backtrack to find the first article in this series, you'll find the explanation of how Bill is figuring "Value."

9:19 PM Jan 19th
 
brian14leonard
Absolute ditto to wovenstrap's first paragraph. Brett was THE Yankee-killer, with or without pine tar.​
8:44 PM Jan 19th
 
rimus6464
I have a question: is the Value category the same as Win Shares? Thanks in advance.
8:35 PM Jan 19th
 
wovenstrap
Brett was a fantastic player. I was a Yankees fan during that time, and it sure seemed like he put his imprint on the game that was being played an awful lot. From 1980-1985 or so, I'd say Brett was the person I least wanted at the plate, as the fan of the opposing team.

My understanding of Schmidt was always filtered through the Abstracts as a teen, so my understanding of his supreme quality always ran very deep, the best player in an era jammed with great players.
5:48 PM Jan 19th
 
Manushfan
*Tony Phillips was a unique, terribly dangerous player if you were opposing him. Very handy and kept going and going. Was sorry to hear he'd passed on.

*I remember watching Greg Luzinski, Manny Mota hitting a long drive in his general direction and seeing the Bull do a juggling act in that '77 playoff. You watch it again, it's painful. The man was a a great hitter for a while, but as someone said-he was NOT cut out to play the outfield.

* Ron Cey's always going to be underrated. Dodgers being in the hunt all those years was in large part because of him too.
5:36 PM Jan 19th
 
DaveNJnews
I'd totally forgotten Richie Hebner was a third baseman. I always think of him as a first baseman.

For years, it hasn't made much sense to me that the Phillies in 1977, after the end of the second Dick Allen era, went out and signed Hebner to play first rather than attempt to move Greg Luzinski and his awful glove from left to first. I mean, they spent the whole of the 1970s NOT moving Luzinski to first, but this would have been a really good time to see if it were viable.

5:17 PM Jan 19th
 
JohnPontoon
Here's some interesting info about Tony Phillips. I'm going to list his on-base % by age, starting at age 29:
29 .320
30 .345
31 .364
32 .371
33 .387
34 .443
35 .409
36 .394
37 .404
38 .392
39 .375
40 .362
After his age-40 season, nobody had any interest in signing him, which blew my mind then and still does. In that last season, in 477 plate appearances, he scored 76 runs and has 49 RBI. Prorate that to a full leadoff hitter season (about 675 PA's) and that's 107 runs and 69 RBI. He also was 11-for-14 stealing bases.
Now, one must include caveats: He began his career in Oakland, and his last year in Oakland was 1989, his 30-years-old season, the first of his 5 consecutive years of improving his OBP. The implication of steroid use is unavoidable. Nonetheless, he was surely one of the great lead-off men in an era of GREAT lead-off men (Rickey & Raines, then Lofton & Biggio, with Boggs being Phillips's almost exact contemporary.)
5:16 PM Jan 19th
 
villageelliott
I have always been a George Brett fan.

I cannot recall a third baseman, or anyone, single-highhandedly "Will" his team to a Worlds Championship to a greater degree than George Brett in 1985. I would be quite content with an infield of Will Clark, Joe Morgan, Derek Jeter and Brett, each of whom "played the game correctly, and made his teammates better, and likewise "Willed" his teammates to victory" (Even if Clark never won a World's Championship.)

Brett was my favorite, the most exciting ballplayer I saw between Willie Mays and Rickey Henderson. And I saw him frequently early in his career, in the years 1974-76.

Being from St. Louis, but at the time living in Columbia, Mo., halfway between Busch Stadium and the recently opened Kaufman Stadium in Kansas City, I attended several Kansas City Royals games in 1974-76, including the controversial last game of 1976 vs. the Minnesota Twins, in which Brett (3/4; 2 2b, HR: started at .3307 ends .3330) outhit both his teammate Hal McRae (4/2: starts: started at .3308, ends ..3321,) and the Twins Rod Carew (4/2; 2b: .3295 to .3306) to win the batting title.

Being from St. Louis, only two things mitigated the most embarrassing Cardinal loss in my lifetime (Matched, if not surpassed in 2004 vs Bill's BoSox. At least I could be happy for the Bills, James and Mueller, and my friend, Kendo from Boston, who could finally die in peace. He stuck around for the next two, too).

1: I was grateful to be living in Stinson Beach, isolated from what my well-deserved fate would have been if I still lived in Columbia. I doubt I would have been so gracious chivalrous and sanguine surrounded by my dubious, Royal-Rooting friends.

2: I was truly happy for Brett. He deserved the championship.







2:38 PM Jan 19th
 
JTiet59
I’ve always been an advocate for Dick Allen to be in the HOF. I understand that off the field issues do influence some voters. I also believe that, at least while with the Phillies, Allen’s issues were as much with his personality as with how the Phillies treated him. Based on Allen’s SABR bio and other sources I’ve read, Allen had a lot of pride and felt he deserved respect. Calling him Richie or Rich instead of Dick was one such example. He was named after his father (If I’m remembering that correctly. It might have been another family member.) and wanted to be called by his real name, Dick.
Anyway, to fall 1 vote short in his most recent opportunity had to have been a big disappointment. I hope the HOF gets him in there before he’s another Ron Santo HOF tragedy.

1:48 PM Jan 19th
 
tampabob
The strange and unfortunate thing about Schmidt was how he wasn't really embraced by the Philly fans until the end of his career. I lived in the Philly era during those years, and there was never the Ripken/Jeter level of adulation you'd expect for an all-time great who'd spent his entire career with one team. Whether it was due to his perceived aloof personality or the team's lack of postseason success, it seemed like his support never matched his achievements. Probably not the best fit between player and town.
1:46 PM Jan 19th
 
W.T.Mons10
I don't think Cecil Travis should be listed as a third baseman in 1941. He played mainly SS that year, and exclusively at SS in 1937-39. Only in 1940 (in this period) was he primarily a third baseman.​
12:49 PM Jan 19th
 
Manushfan
The year that impressed me the most with Schmidt was 86 and that third MVP, thats when I stopped taking him for granted as much. Of course he's the best ever there.
12:25 PM Jan 19th
 
ventboys
Oops, typo. 31, 32 and 37.
12:07 PM Jan 19th
 
ventboys
1980 was the watershed year. Brett chased .400 to the very end, but missed 45 games. He had another monster year in 1985 and lasted until 1993, but he had a lot of injuries and he played at a lower level than he had in the 1970s. Schmidt, conversely, moved away from the plate in 1980, increases his contact rates, and maintained - even increased - his overall production. Schmidt was four years older than Brett, and won his MVP awards at the ages of 31, 34 and 37.
12:05 PM Jan 19th
 
wilbur
I certainly remember Tony Perez playing third. At best you could say he fought it to a draw. A good enough arm, but not much mobility. At least that's how I remember it.

The Reds traded Lee May to get Tony on first base, and Joe Morgan turned into a superstar. Denis Menke was brought in that same deal to handle third base.
12:00 PM Jan 19th
 
wovenstrap
If you had asked me, were Brett and Schmidt pretty much neck and neck until 1981? I would have said no, Schmidt was a cut above. According to this measure, Brett was right on his heels for that entire period. Only in 1981 did Schmidt begin to pull away. (Was it The Gossage HR?) I would not have expected that.
11:01 AM Jan 19th
 
chuck
Nice to see how high Stan Hack and Heinie Groh are rated here in their career accumulated rankings. Hack had thirteen seasons in the top 5, more than anyone else in the 1900-1968 period, and nine of those were either #1 or #2.

Traynor had 11 seasons in the top 5. Average value of those was 22.4
Hack's best 11 seasons in the top 5 had an average value of 25.0

10:57 AM Jan 19th
 
Manushfan
Out of curiosity, what does anyone remember about Tony Perez at third? He was always at first in my day. I've honestly never read much about his glovework there. Killebrew I picture Bobby Bonilla sadly. With the leather I mean. Dick Allen well he was an awesome hitter let's put it that way.
10:54 AM Jan 19th
 
contrarian
Interestingly, though Pesky is most commonly thought of as a shortstop, he was a fulltime 3B for Boston almost as much as he was a fulltime SS. He started at short in 1942, 46, 47, 51, but was the 3B in 1948-50 (when Vern Stephens took over at short).
10:22 AM Jan 19th
 
MarisFan61
It's interesting to see some of those players who moved to third base for a year or two from other positions turn up on these lists, and even very amusing. I thought Johnny Pesky was funny for 1950, then for 1951 I see Bobby Thomson and Minnie Minoso.

That's also pretty funny, kind of, about that 'trade' that put Al Rosen in the Yankee system for a year. (Never knew about that before, nor of any such thing on any player.) I wonder why the Yanks would have been interested to do it. We'd tend to think they'd want to use the spot for one of their own guys. The only thing I can think of is that they were very interested in how much their AAA team would win, which seems like an alien idea now.

I think the section about the '64 MVP's and Dick Allen will look to many people like fielding isn't taken into account enough; of course it looks that way to me.

A couple of days ago one of our members gave a link to a website that gives figures for Fielding Win Shares for years earlier than what's shown on this site. BTW I wouldn't assume that the calculations come from the best possible application of the system but I do tend to think at least that they're done according to its main tenets. For fun I figured I'd look at what it shows for those guys on fielding in 1964. I won't know what it is, till right now....
Goodness gracious: not that much difference.

Fielding Win Shares, 1964 (per thebaseballgauge.com)
Brooks Robinson 6.6
Ken Boyer 6.7
Dick Allen 5.4
10:06 AM Jan 19th
 
Manushfan
I can remember I think Sport Magazine's all 1970's team had Brooks as their 3b, and even as a 13 year old I can remember thinking--that can't be right. Schmidt anyone? Hard to shake that sort of thinking in writers unfortunately.
8:57 AM Jan 19th
 
wilbur
Very interesting how Dick Allen waxes even Ron Santo in the 64-67 period. Never would've expected that.

In 68, the Phillies moved Allen to left (where he subsequently led my APBA season replay with 39 HRs), Tony Taylor to third, gave Cookie Rojas the full-time second base job, and sat Johnny Briggs from the outfield contingent. Seems like a questionable move to me now. In 69 they traded a finished Bill White, put Allen at first and gave outfield jobs to Larry Hisle and Deron Johnson. Should've improved them, but this season was disastrous.
8:56 AM Jan 19th
 
 
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