Remember me

Wrapping up Third Base

January 31, 2018
  

92.  Williams and Caminiti

              In the mid-1990s the best third basemen in baseball were Matt Williams and Ken Caminiti:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1992

1

Terry

Pendleton

21

105

.311

.345

.473

27.41

1992

2

Robin

Ventura

16

93

.282

.375

.431

26.04

1992

3

Dave

Hollins

27

93

.270

.369

.469

22.17

1992

4

Edgar

Martinez

18

73

.343

.404

.544

21.42

1992

5

Travis

Fryman

20

96

.266

.316

.416

21.25

1992

6

Wade

Boggs

7

50

.259

.353

.358

19.93

1992

7

Ken

Caminiti

13

62

.294

.350

.441

19.42

1992

8

Gregg

Jefferies

10

75

.285

.329

.404

19.21

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1993

1

Matt

Williams

38

110

.294

.325

.561

24.57

1993

2

Robin

Ventura

22

94

.262

.379

.433

22.76

1993

3

Travis

Fryman

22

97

.300

.379

.486

22.33

1993

4

Wade

Boggs

2

59

.302

.378

.362

21.08

1993

5

Terry

Pendleton

17

84

.272

.311

.408

19.67

1993

6

Charlie

Hayes

25

98

.305

.355

.522

19.52

1993

7

Dave

Hollins

18

93

.273

.372

.442

19.25

1993

8

Todd

Zeile

17

103

.277

.352

.433

18.54

1993

9

Dean

Palmer

33

96

.245

.321

.503

18.38

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1994

1

Matt

Williams

43

96

.267

.319

.607

22.83

1994

2

Ken

Caminiti

18

75

.283

.352

.495

21.94

1994

3

Wade

Boggs

11

55

.342

.433

.489

21.00

1994

4

Robin

Ventura

18

78

.282

.373

.459

20.83

1994

5

Bobby

Bonilla

20

67

.290

.374

.504

20.11

1994

6

Travis

Fryman

18

85

.263

.326

.474

19.55

1994

7

Edgar

Martinez

13

51

.285

.387

.482

18.55

1994

8

Todd

Zeile

19

75

.267

.348

.470

16.77

1994

9

Charlie

Hayes

10

50

.288

.348

.433

16.05

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1995

1

Ken

Caminiti

26

94

.302

.380

.513

26.48

1995

2

Jim

Thome

25

73

.314

.438

.558

23.98

1995

3

Matt

Williams

23

65

.336

.399

.647

23.85

1995

4

Bobby

Bonilla

28

99

.329

.388

.576

22.48

1995

5

Tony

Phillips

27

61

.261

.394

.459

20.90

1995

6

Wade

Boggs

5

63

.324

.412

.422

19.99

1995

7

Vinny

Castilla

32

90

.309

.347

.564

19.56

1995

8

Chipper

Jones

23

86

.265

.353

.450

19.19

1995

9

Robin

Ventura

26

93

.295

.384

.498

19.03

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1996

1

Ken

Caminiti

40

130

.326

.408

.621

32.74

1996

2

Jim

Thome

38

116

.311

.450

.612

26.57

1996

3

Chipper

Jones

30

110

.309

.393

.530

24.17

1996

4

Vinny

Castilla

40

113

.304

.343

.548

22.59

1996

5

Matt

Williams

22

85

.302

.367

.510

21.05

1996

6

Dean

Palmer

38

107

.280

.348

.527

19.39

1996

7

Robin

Ventura

34

105

.287

.368

.520

19.13

1996

8

Jeff

Cirillo

15

83

.325

.391

.504

18.83

1996

9

Travis

Fryman

22

100

.268

.329

.437

18.73

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1997

1

Ken

Caminiti

26

90

.290

.389

.508

28.27

1997

2

Chipper

Jones

21

111

.295

.371

.479

25.47

1997

3

Scott

Rolen

21

92

.283

.377

.469

25.37

1997

4

Vinny

Castilla

40

113

.304

.356

.547

23.88

1997

5

Matt

Williams

32

105

.263

.307

.488

19.64

1997

6

Jeff

Cirillo

10

82

.288

.367

.426

19.51

1997

7

Travis

Fryman

22

102

.274

.326

.440

19.13

1997

8

Dean

Palmer

23

86

.256

.310

.445

19.00

1997

9

Todd

Zeile

31

90

.268

.365

.459

18.74

 

              I believe (not checking) that Matt Williams hit 64 homers in a stretch of 162 games beginning about September 1, 1993.  I always think about that—that, were it not for the strike, he might have been the guy who broke Maris’s record, and then all of the crap that rained down on Mark McGwire’s shoulders might eventually have fallen on Matt Williams. 

              I also have to point this out about Vinny Castilla, who was the Nolan Arrenado of his time.   In the history of baseball there are 596 player/seasons in which a player has hit 36 or more homers.   In those seasons there are 595 unique combinations of HR, RBI and Batting Average.   That is to say, there are 594 players whose Home Runs, RBI and Batting Average do not match any other player, and one combination which DOES match another season.   There are 176,715 possible season-to-season comparisons in there, and there is only one perfect match in terms of home runs, RBI and batting average.   And that one match is: Vinny Castilla in 1996, with Vinny Castilla in 1997.   40 Homers, 113 RBI, .304 average both seasons.   Do you have any idea what the odds against that are? 

 

93.  Wood Chipper

              Chipper Jones was the best third baseman in baseball from 1998 to 2001:

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1998

1

Chipper

Jones

34

107

.313

.404

.547

28.40

1998

2

Scott

Rolen

31

110

.290

.391

.532

26.04

1998

3

Vinny

Castilla

46

144

.319

.362

.589

23.59

1998

4

Ken

Caminiti

29

82

.252

.353

.509

23.28

1998

5

Robin

Ventura

21

91

.263

.349

.436

21.20

1998

6

Dean

Palmer

34

119

.278

.333

.510

20.77

1998

7

Jeff

Cirillo

14

68

.321

.402

.445

20.65

1998

8

Edgardo

Alfonzo

17

78

.278

.355

.427

19.58

1998

9

Travis

Fryman

28

96

.287

.340

.504

19.02

1998

10

Todd

Zeile

19

94

.271

.350

.437

18.86

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

1999

1

Chipper

Jones

45

110

.319

.441

.633

30.09

1999

2

Robin

Ventura

32

120

.301

.379

.529

24.25

1999

3

Scott

Rolen

26

77

.268

.368

.525

22.88

1999

4

Edgardo

Alfonzo

27

108

.304

.385

.502

21.98

1999

5

Matt

Williams

35

142

.303

.344

.536

21.29

1999

6

Jeff

Cirillo

15

88

.326

.401

.461

20.80

1999

7

Fernando

Tatis

34

107

.298

.404

.553

19.74

1999

8

Phil

Nevin

24

85

.269

.352

.527

19.34

1999

9

Dean

Palmer

38

100

.262

.339

.518

19.15

1999

10

Vinny

Castilla

33

102

.275

.331

.478

18.72

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2000

1

Chipper

Jones

36

111

.311

.404

.566

29.11

2000

2

Scott

Rolen

26

89

.298

.370

.551

23.19

2000

3

Phil

Nevin

31

107

.303

.374

.543

22.75

2000

4

Troy

Glaus

47

102

.284

.404

.604

22.01

2000

5

Edgardo

Alfonzo

25

94

.324

.425

.542

21.49

2000

6

Jeff

Cirillo

11

115

.326

.392

.477

20.80

2000

7

Robin

Ventura

24

84

.232

.338

.439

19.77

2000

8

Tony

Batista

41

114

.263

.307

.519

18.90

2000

9

Travis

Fryman

22

106

.321

.392

.516

18.09

2000

10

Eric

Chavez

26

86

.277

.355

.495

17.98

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2001

1

Chipper

Jones

38

102

.330

.427

.605

29.40

2001

2

Albert

Pujols

37

130

.329

.403

.610

27.10

2001

3

Scott

Rolen

25

107

.289

.378

.498

26.66

2001

4

Phil

Nevin

41

126

.306

.388

.588

26.20

2001

5

Troy

Glaus

41

108

.250

.367

.531

22.77

2001

6

Eric

Chavez

32

114

.288

.338

.540

21.99

2001

7

Corey

Koskie

26

103

.276

.362

.488

20.33

2001

8

Aramis

Ramirez

34

112

.300

.350

.536

19.53

2001

9

Mike

Lowell

18

100

.283

.340

.448

18.90

2001

10

Robin

Ventura

21

61

.237

.359

.419

18.85

 

              Jones remained on the list of the best third basemen in baseball through 2011, or ten full seasons after he was no longer #1.   That’s pretty unusual, if not unique, for a former #1 to stay ON the list for a full decade.    I think Lou Whitaker stayed on the list a long time while Sandberg was the #1 guy.  

 

94.  Rock ‘n Rolen

              Chipper’s an obvious Hall of Famer.   Scott Rolen is harder, and may drop off the ballot.   He had only a two-year run as the #1 third baseman in baseball, but. . .and this, again, is pretty unique. . .his peak value at third base actually occurred in 2004, when he was NOT the #1 man:

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2002

1

Scott

Rolen

31

110

.266

.357

.503

27.39

2002

2

Eric

Chavez

34

109

.275

.348

.513

22.90

2002

3

Troy

Glaus

30

111

.250

.352

.453

21.20

2002

4

Mike

Lowell

24

92

.276

.346

.471

20.94

2002

5

Eric

Hinske

24

84

.279

.365

.481

19.65

2002

6

Phil

Nevin

12

57

.285

.344

.413

19.14

2002

7

Corey

Koskie

15

69

.267

.368

.447

19.02

2002

8

Jose

Valentin

25

75

.249

.311

.479

18.36

2002

9

Tony

Batista

31

87

.244

.309

.457

18.34

2002

10

Aaron

Boone

26

87

.241

.314

.439

18.17

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2003

1

Scott

Rolen

28

104

.286

.382

.528

27.12

2003

2

Mark

Loretta

13

72

.314

.372

.441

22.85

2003

3

Eric

Chavez

29

101

.282

.350

.514

22.79

2003

4

Mike

Lowell

32

105

.276

.350

.530

20.95

2003

5

Aramis

Ramirez

27

106

.272

.324

.465

20.12

2003

6

Bill

Mueller

19

85

.326

.398

.540

19.19

2003

7

Melvin

Mora

15

48

.317

.418

.503

19.10

2003

8

Hank

Blalock

29

90

.300

.350

.522

18.98

2003

9

Corey

Koskie

14

69

.292

.393

.452

18.68

2003

10

Shea

Hillenbrand

20

97

.280

.314

.468

18.67

 

95.  A-Rod moves to Third

              In 2004 A-Rod negotiated (more or less) his own trade to the Yankees, and as a consequence of that trade moved to third base.   Winning MVP Awards in 2005 and 2007, A-Rod rates as the top third baseman in baseball from 2004 through 2009, except that one year Miguel Cabrera plays third base and one year David Wright slips ahead of him:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2004

1

Alex

Rodriguez

36

106

.286

.375

.512

30.92

2004

2

Scott

Rolen

34

124

.314

.409

.598

29.57

2004

3

Chipper

Jones

30

96

.248

.362

.485

22.87

2004

4

Melvin

Mora

27

104

.340

.419

.562

22.86

2004

5

Adrian

Beltre

48

121

.334

.388

.629

22.59

2004

6

Aramis

Ramirez

36

103

.318

.373

.578

22.32

2004

7

Eric

Chavez

29

77

.276

.397

.501

21.30

2004

8

Hank

Blalock

32

110

.276

.355

.500

20.87

2004

9

Aubrey

Huff

29

104

.297

.360

.493

20.39

2004

10

Mike

Lowell

27

85

.293

.365

.505

20.26

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2005

1

Alex

Rodriguez

48

130

.321

.421

.610

32.04

2005

2

David

Wright

27

102

.306

.388

.523

25.03

2005

3

Chipper

Jones

21

72

.296

.412

.556

23.25

2005

4

Aramis

Ramirez

31

92

.302

.358

.568

22.60

2005

5

Melvin

Mora

27

88

.283

.348

.474

20.44

2005

6

Eric

Chavez

27

101

.269

.329

.466

20.38

2005

7

Troy

Glaus

37

97

.258

.363

.522

20.20

2005

8

Morgan

Ensberg

36

101

.283

.388

.557

19.77

2005

9

Adrian

Beltre

19

87

.255

.303

.413

19.64

2005

10

Hank

Blalock

25

92

.263

.318

.431

19.22

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2006

1

Miguel

Cabrera

26

114

.339

.430

.568

29.44

2006

2

Alex

Rodriguez

35

121

.290

.392

.523

29.34

2006

3

David

Wright

26

116

.311

.381

.531

29.18

2006

4

Chipper

Jones

26

86

.324

.409

.596

25.25

2006

5

Aramis

Ramirez

38

119

.291

.352

.561

22.53

2006

6

Ryan

Zimmerman

20

110

.287

.351

.471

21.06

2006

7

Troy

Glaus

38

104

.252

.355

.513

20.52

2006

8

Scott

Rolen

22

95

.296

.369

.518

19.82

2006

9

Adrian

Beltre

25

89

.268

.328

.465

19.68

2006

10

Garrett

Atkins

29

120

.329

.409

.556

19.19

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2007

1

Alex

Rodriguez

54

156

.314

.422

.645

32.33

2007

2

David

Wright

30

107

.325

.416

.546

30.75

2007

3

Miguel

Cabrera

34

119

.320

.401

.565

28.02

2007

4

Chipper

Jones

29

102

.337

.425

.604

26.28

2007

5

Aramis

Ramirez

26

101

.310

.366

.549

23.25

2007

6

Mike

Lowell

21

120

.324

.378

.501

19.87

2007

7

Ryan

Zimmerman

24

91

.266

.330

.458

18.82

2007

8

Adrian

Beltre

26

99

.276

.319

.482

18.65

2007

9

Chone

Figgins

3

58

.330

.393

.432

18.19

2007

10

Troy

Glaus

20

62

.262

.366

.473

18.01

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2008

1

David

Wright

33

124

.302

.390

.534

27.55

2008

2

Alex

Rodriguez

35

103

.302

.392

.573

27.30

2008

3

Chipper

Jones

22

75

.364

.470

.574

24.91

2008

4

Aramis

Ramirez

27

111

.289

.380

.518

23.60

2008

5

Michael

Young

12

82

.284

.339

.402

20.79

2008

6

Evan

Longoria

27

85

.272

.343

.531

19.01

2008

7

Mark

DeRosa

21

87

.285

.376

.481

18.90

2008

8

Jorge

Cantu

29

95

.277

.327

.481

18.72

2008

9

Carlos

Guillen

10

54

.286

.376

.436

18.09

2008

10

Casey

Blake

21

81

.274

.345

.463

17.99

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2009

1

Alex

Rodriguez

30

100

.286

.402

.532

26.01

2009

2

Evan

Longoria

33

113

.281

.364

.526

24.10

2009

3

David

Wright

10

72

.307

.390

.447

23.85

2009

4

Pablo

Sandoval

25

90

.330

.387

.556

23.67

2009

5

Chipper

Jones

18

71

.264

.388

.430

22.06

2009

6

Chone

Figgins

5

54

.298

.395

.393

20.91

2009

7

Aramis

Ramirez

15

65

.317

.389

.516

20.88

2009

8

Ryan

Zimmerman

33

106

.292

.363

.525

20.09

2009

9

Michael

Young

22

68

.322

.374

.518

19.36

2009

10

Mark

Reynolds

44

102

.260

.349

.543

18.77

 

              A-Rod was the first and only Yankee third baseman to rank number one at the position.  

 

96.  Two-Year Reigns

              From 2010 to 2015 Evan Longoria, Miguel Cabrera and Josh Donaldson took two-year turns each as the top third baseman in baseball:

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2010

1

Evan

Longoria

22

104

.294

.372

.507

26.86

2010

2

David

Wright

29

103

.283

.354

.503

24.19

2010

3

Alex

Rodriguez

30

125

.270

.341

.506

22.44

2010

4

Ryan

Zimmerman

25

85

.307

.388

.510

22.10

2010

5

Adrian

Beltre

28

102

.321

.365

.553

22.02

2010

6

Aramis

Ramirez

25

83

.241

.294

.452

19.58

2010

7

Chipper

Jones

10

46

.265

.381

.426

19.05

2010

8

Casey

McGehee

23

104

.285

.337

.464

17.89

2010

9

Mark

Reynolds

32

85

.198

.320

.433

17.19

2010

10

Chase

Headley

11

58

.264

.327

.375

17.03

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2011

1

Evan

Longoria

31

99

.244

.355

.495

26.35

2011

2

David

Wright

14

61

.254

.345

.427

23.01

2011

3

Pablo

Sandoval

23

70

.315

.357

.552

22.92

2011

4

Aramis

Ramirez

26

93

.306

.361

.510

22.50

2011

5

Ryan

Zimmerman

12

49

.289

.355

.443

21.56

2011

6

Adrian

Beltre

32

105

.296

.331

.561

20.97

2011

7

Chase

Headley

4

44

.289

.374

.399

20.45

2011

8

Kevin

Youkilis

17

80

.258

.373

.459

19.47

2011

9

Chipper

Jones

18

70

.275

.344

.470

18.73

2011

10

Alex

Rodriguez

16

62

.276

.362

.461

17.91

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2012

1

Miguel

Cabrera

44

139

.330

.393

.606

33.78

2012

2

David

Wright

21

93

.306

.391

.492

27.18

2012

3

Chase

Headley

31

115

.286

.376

.498

25.18

2012

4

Adrian

Beltre

36

102

.321

.359

.561

24.12

2012

5

Evan

Longoria

17

55

.289

.369

.527

22.69

2012

6

Ryan

Zimmerman

25

95

.282

.346

.478

22.30

2012

7

Pablo

Sandoval

12

63

.283

.342

.447

22.04

2012

8

Kyle

Seager

20

86

.259

.316

.423

21.31

2012

9

Aramis

Ramirez

27

105

.300

.360

.540

20.99

2012

10

Pedro

Alvarez

30

85

.244

.317

.467

18.60

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2013

1

Miguel

Cabrera

44

137

.348

.442

.636

35.11

2013

2

Matt

Carpenter

11

78

.318

.392

.481

28.62

2013

3

Josh

Donaldson

24

93

.301

.384

.499

26.89

2013

4

David

Wright

18

58

.307

.390

.514

26.09

2013

5

Adrian

Beltre

30

92

.315

.371

.509

23.30

2013

6

Evan

Longoria

32

88

.269

.343

.498

22.78

2013

7

Kyle

Seager

22

69

.260

.338

.426

22.69

2013

8

Pablo

Sandoval

14

79

.278

.341

.417

21.92

2013

9

Ryan

Zimmerman

26

79

.275

.344

.465

21.41

2013

10

Chase

Headley

13

50

.250

.347

.400

20.32

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

YEAR

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

2014

1

Josh

Donaldson

29

98

.255

.342

.456

28.00

2014

2

Matt

Carpenter

8

59

.272

.375

.375

27.80

2014

3

Adrian

Beltre

19

77

.324

.388

.492

25.96

2014

4

Kyle

Seager

25

96

.268

.334

.454

25.40

2014

5

Anthony

Rendon

21

83

.287

.351

.473

22.77

2014

6

Josh

Harrison

13

52

.315

.347

.490

21.87

2014

7

Evan

Longoria

22

91

.253

.320

.404

20.87

2014

8

Manny

Machado

12

32

.278

.324

.431

19.76

2014

9

David

Wright

8

63

.269

.324

.374

18.76

2014

10

Pablo

Sandoval

16

73

.279

.324

.415

18.54

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

2015

1

Josh

Donaldson

41

123

.297

.371

.568

30.72

2015

2

Matt

Carpenter

28

84

.272

.365

.505

28.69

2015

3

Kris

Bryant

26

99

.275

.369

.488

26.45

2015

4

Manny

Machado

35

86

.286

.359

.502

24.63

2015

5

Adrian

Beltre

18

83

.287

.334

.453

23.91

2015

6

Nolan

Arenado

42

130

.287

.323

.575

23.30

2015

7

Kyle

Seager

26

74

.266

.328

.451

21.92

2015

8

Justin

Turner

16

60

.294

.370

.491

21.21

2015

9

Evan

Longoria

21

73

.270

.328

.435

19.45

2015

10

Matt

Duffy

12

77

.295

.334

.428

19.45

 

              2014 is the only season since 1995 in which no major league third baseman drove in 100 runs. 

 

 

97.  The Current Crop

              It is a consensus of the experts that the current crop of third basemen is a strong one, although the full picture of that will take time to emerge.   When Manny Machado ranks 10th at the position, that’s probably a strong group. 

              I suppose that I should explain here the difference between THESE rankings and my top 10 rankings on MLB-TV, which are also running at the same time.   The rankings are generally about the same, but this a strictly mathematical evaluation of the players at the position POST 2017, while the MLB-TV rankings involve some subjective judgment, and are based on where I believe the players will rate IN 2018.    So in the MLB-TV rankings, Alex Bregman probably rates higher than he does here, because he is young and can be expected to move up, and Manny Machado probably ranks higher because he just didn’t have a good year last year, while older players and guys who might have had atypical years might rank lower in the MLB-TV rankings.   But they’re largely the same; I have Anthony Rendon as the #1 man both ways.  

Rank

First

Last

HR

RBI

Avg

OBA

SPct

Value

1

Kris

Bryant

39

102

.292

.385

.554

28.72

2

Josh

Donaldson

37

99

.284

.404

.549

28.23

3

Adrian

Beltre

32

104

.300

.358

.521

25.55

4

Kyle

Seager

30

99

.278

.359

.499

24.90

5

Manny

Machado

37

96

.294

.343

.533

24.61

6

Nolan

Arenado

41

133

.294

.362

.570

24.27

7

Matt

Carpenter

21

68

.271

.380

.505

23.94

8

Justin

Turner

27

90

.275

.339

.493

23.87

9

Anthony

Rendon

20

85

.270

.348

.450

22.03

10

Jose

Ramirez

11

76

.312

.363

.462

19.58

 

   

 

     

 

 

1

Anthony

Rendon

25

100

.301

.403

.533

25.70

2

Jose

Ramirez

29

83

.318

.374

.583

24.68

3

Kris

Bryant

29

73

.295

.409

.537

24.49

4

Josh

Donaldson

33

78

.270

.385

.559

23.99

5

Nolan

Arenado

37

130

.309

.373

.586

22.77

6

Justin

Turner

21

71

.322

.415

.530

21.58

7

Alex

Bregman

19

71

.284

.352

.475

20.22

8

Travis

Shaw

31

101

.273

.349

.513

19.56

9

Kyle

Seager

27

88

.249

.323

.450

19.23

10

Manny

Machado

33

95

.259

.310

.471

19.21

 

              These ratings, by the way, go all the way out; I have Colin Moran as the #77 third baseman of 2017, and Conor Gillaspie #62.   Just in case anybody asks.

 

98.  The Greatest Third Basemen of All Time

              In terms of Position Dominance, these would be the highest-scoring third basemen of all time; Hall of Famers in gold and active players in green.   I guess I will mark Chipper Jones as a Hall of Famer, technically early:

 

Rank

First

Last

FROM

TO

1

2

3

4

5

YOPDI

1

Mike

Schmidt

1972

1989

9

4

1

0

0

128

2

Eddie

Mathews

1952

1968

10

1

1

0

0

113

3

Chipper

Jones

1993

2012

4

1

4

2

2

106

4

Wade

Boggs

1982

1999

6

1

3

1

0

100

5

George

Brett

1973

1993

1

7

1

3

2

92

5

Pie

Traynor

1920

1937

7

2

2

0

0

92

7

Stan

Hack

1932

1947

4

5

2

1

1

86

8

Home Run

Baker

1908

1922

6

2

1

0

1

79

9

Heine

Groh

1912

1927

6

1

1

2

0

75

10

David

Wright

2004

2016

1

5

2

1

0

71

 

       

 

     

 

 

11

Darrell

Evans

1969

1989

2

1

4

2

2

69

12

Scott

Rolen

1996

2012

2

3

3

0

0

66

13

Bob

Elliott

1939

1953

5

1

2

0

0

65

14

Ron

Santo

1960

1974

1

5

1

1

0

61

15

Ezra

Sutton

1876

1888

3

3

0

3

2

59

15

Jimmy

Collins

1895

1908

2

6

0

1

0

59

17

Ned

Williamson

1878

1890

2

4

2

0

0

56

18

Al

Rosen

1947

1956

4

1

1

0

0

51

19

Ken

Boyer

1955

1969

0

5

2

1

1

50

20

Adrian

Beltre

1998

2017

0

0

2

1

4

47

 

       

 

     

 

 

20

Ken

Caminiti

1987

2001

3

1

0

1

0

47

20

Matt

Williams

1987

2003

2

0

1

1

3

47

23

Aramis

Ramirez

1998

2015

0

0

0

3

3

45

24

Art

Devlin

1904

1913

3

1

1

1

1

44

24

Evan

Longoria

2008

2017

2

1

0

0

1

44

26

Bobby

Bonilla

1986

2001

0

2

0

2

3

42

27

Josh

Donaldson

2010

2017

2

1

1

1

0

41

27

Bill

Joyce

1890

1898

1

4

0

1

1

41

27

Brooks

Robinson

1955

1977

0

0

5

3

2

41

27

Deacon

White

1876

1890

3

1

0

1

2

41

 

       

 

     

 

 

31

Harlond

Clift

1934

1945

2

0

3

4

0

40

31

Edwin

Encarnacion

2005

2017

3

1

0

0

1

40

31

Billy

Nash

1884

1898

2

1

1

4

1

40

31

Robin

Ventura

1989

2004

0

3

0

1

2

40

35

Bill

Bradley

1899

1915

3

0

2

0

0

38

36

Howard

Johnson

1982

1995

2

0

2

1

0

37

36

Freddy

Lindstrom

1924

1936

2

2

0

1

1

37

38

Whitey

Kurowski

1941

1949

1

3

1

0

0

35

39

Mike

Higgins

1930

1946

2

1

0

2

3

34

40

Sal

Bando

1966

1981

0

1

2

2

1

32

 

       

 

     

 

 

41

Eddie

Yost

1944

1962

0

2

1

5

3

31

42

Matt

Carpenter

2011

2017

0

3

0

0

0

27

42

Bill

Madlock

1973

1987

0

1

1

0

2

27

44

Eric

Chavez

1998

2014

0

1

1

0

0

26

45

Kris

Bryant

2015

2017

1

0

2

0

0

24

45

Ron

Cey

1971

1987

0

0

0

2

1

24

45

Larry

Gardner

1908

1924

0

0

4

3

2

24

45

George

Kell

1943

1957

0

1

3

2

1

24

45

Pepper

Martin

1928

1944

1

1

1

1

1

24

50

Troy

Glaus

1998

2010

0

0

1

1

2

23

 

       

 

     

 

 

50

Graig

Nettles

1967

1988

0

1

0

4

1

23

50

Red

Smith

1911

1919

0

1

3

2

0

23

50

Pinky

Whitney

1928

1939

0

2

1

2

1

23

50

Ryan

Zimmerman

2005

2017

0

0

0

1

1

23

55

Ray

Boone

1948

1960

0

2

2

0

0

22

55

Vinny

Castilla

1991

2006

0

0

1

2

0

22

55

Toby

Harrah

1969

1986

0

0

0

1

0

22

55

Terry

Pendleton

1984

1998

1

1

0

0

1

22

59

Tom

Burns

1880

1892

0

0

5

0

1

21

59

Red

Rolfe

1931

1942

0

2

1

1

1

21

 

Notes:

              1)  George Brett’s YOPDI score is, of course, depressed by the fact that he is competing head to head with the GOAT, Mike Schmidt,

              2)  John McGraw appears to have been accidentally left off the list; my bad.   If I were a more disciplined writer I would go back and fix the list, but just pencil him in. 

              3)  No, I definitely do NOT expect you to believe that Aramis Ramirez and Bobby Bonilla were greater third basemen than Brooks Robinson; it’s just a list.   That’s why we look at things in different ways.

              4)  The number of still-active players on the list is quite impressive. 

              This would be the list by peak value:     

 

Rank

YEAR

First

Last

Team

HR

RBI

Avg

AGE

OBA

SPct

OPS

Peak

1

1967

Dick

Allen

Phillies

23

77

.307

25

.404

.566

.970

38.08

2

1981

Mike

Schmidt

Phillies

31

91

.316

31

.435

.644

1.080

37.57

3

1912

Home Run

Baker

Athletics

10

130

.347

26

.404

.541

.945

37.32

4

1960

Eddie

Mathews

Braves

39

124

.277

28

.397

.551

.948

35.11

5

2013

Miguel

Cabrera

Tigers

44

137

.348

30

.442

.636

1.078

35.11

6

1986

Wade

Boggs

Red Sox

8

71

.357

28

.453

.486

.939

35.04

7

1980

George

Brett

Royals

24

118

.390

27

.454

.664

1.118

34.93

8

1953

Al

Rosen

Indians

43

145

.336

29

.422

.613

1.034

34.61

9

1938

Mel

Ott

Giants

36

116

.311

29

.442

.583

1.024

33.89

10

1899

John

McGraw

Orioles

1

33

.391

26

.547

.446

.994

33.71

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11

1967

Ron

Santo

Cubs

31

98

.300

27

.395

.512

.906

33.67

12

1996

Ken

Caminiti

Padres

40

130

.326

33

.408

.621

1.028

32.74

13

1917

Heine

Groh

Reds

1

53

.304

27

.385

.411

.796

32.47

14

2007

Alex

Rodriguez

Yankees

54

156

.314

31

.422

.645

1.067

32.33

15

1971

Joe

Torre

Cardinals

24

137

.363

30

.421

.555

.976

31.65

16

1989

Howard

Johnson

Mets

36

101

.287

28

.369

.559

.928

31.49

17

1966

Harmon

Killebrew

Twins

39

110

.281

30

.391

.538

.929

30.84

18

2007

David

Wright

Mets

30

107

.325

24

.416

.546

.963

30.75

19

2015

Josh

Donaldson

Blue Jays

41

123

.297

29

.371

.568

.939

30.72

20

1919

Rogers

Hornsby

Cardinals

8

71

.318

23

.384

.430

.814

30.60

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21

1906

Art

Devlin

Giants

2

65

.299

26

.396

.390

.786

30.26

22

1983

Pedro

Guerrero

Dodgers

32

103

.298

27

.373

.531

.904

30.22

23

1970

Tony

Perez

Reds

40

129

.317

28

.401

.589

.990

30.17

24

1989

Kevin

Mitchell

Giants

47

125

.291

27

.387

.635

1.023

30.13

25

1999

Chipper

Jones

Braves

45

110

.319

27

.441

.633

1.074

30.09

26

2004

Scott

Rolen

Cardinals

34

124

.314

29

.409

.598

1.007

29.57

27

1975

Pete

Rose

Reds

7

74

.317

34

.406

.432

.838

29.42

28

1912

Heinie

Zimmerman

Cubs

14

99

.372

25

.418

.571

.989

29.37

29

1890

Denny

Lyons

Athletics

7

 

.354

24

.461

.531

.992

29.01

30

2016

Kris

Bryant

Cubs

39

102

.292

24

.385

.554

.939

28.72

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rank

YEAR

First

Last

Team

HR

RBI

Avg

AGE

OBA

SPct

OPS

Peak

31

1898

Jimmy

Collins

Braves

15

111

.328

28

.377

.479

.856

28.71

32

2015

Matt

Carpenter

Cardinals

28

84

.272

29

.365

.505

.871

28.69

33

1941

Cecil

Travis

Senators

7

101

.359

27

.410

.520

.930

28.66

34

1964

Brooks

Robinson

Orioles

28

118

.317

27

.368

.521

.889

28.52

35

1945

Stan

Hack

Cubs

2

43

.323

35

.420

.405

.826

28.46

36

1899

Jimmy

Williams

Pirates

9

116

.355

22

.417

.532

.949

28.21

37

1908

Tommy

Leach

Pirates

5

41

.259

30

.324

.381

.705

28.11

38

1903

Bill

Bradley

Indians

6

68

.313

25

.348

.496

.844

28.06

39

1960

Ken

Boyer

Cardinals

32

97

.304

29

.370

.562

.932

28.05

40

1896

Bill

Joyce

2 Teams

13

94

.333

30

.470

.518

.988

27.96

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

41

1973

Darrell

Evans

Braves

41

104

.281

26

.403

.556

.959

27.80

42

1989

Paul

Molitor

Brewers

11

56

.315

32

.379

.439

.818

27.78

43

1899

Honus

Wagner

Colonels

7

113

.336

25

.391

.494

.885

27.69

44

1884

Ezra

Sutton

Red Stockings

3

61

.346

33

.384

.455

.839

27.65

45

1992

Terry

Pendleton

Braves

21

105

.311

31

.345

.473

.818

27.41

46

2001

Albert

Pujols

Cardinals

37

130

.329

21

.403

.610

1.013

27.10

47

1890

George

Pinckney

Dodgers

7

83

.309

28

.411

.431

.842

26.98

48

1928

Freddy

Lindstrom

Giants

14

107

.358

22

.383

.511

.894

26.96

49

2010

Evan

Longoria

Rays

22

104

.294

24

.372

.507

.879

26.86

50

1996

Jim

Thome

Indians

38

116

.311

25

.450

.612

1.062

26.57

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

51

1945

Whitey

Kurowski

Cardinals

21

102

.323

27

.383

.511

.894

26.25

52

2001

Phil

Nevin

Padres

41

126

.306

30

.388

.588

.976

26.20

53

1967

Jim Ray

Hart

Giants

29

99

.289

25

.373

.509

.882

26.19

54

1992

Robin

Ventura

White Sox

16

93

.282

24

.375

.431

.806

26.04

55

1895

George

Davis

Giants

5

101

.340

24

.417

.500

.917

26.04

56

1948

Bob

Elliott

Braves

23

100

.283

31

.423

.474

.897

26.01

57

1921

Frankie

Frisch

Giants

8

100

.341

22

.384

.485

.870

25.98

58

2014

Adrian

Beltre

Rangers

19

77

.324

35

.388

.492

.879

25.96

59

1888

Arlie

Latham

Cardinals

2

31

.265

28

.325

.326

.652

25.95

60

1906

Harry

Steinfeldt

Cubs

3

83

.327

28

.395

.430

.825

25.93

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rank

YEAR

First

Last

Team

HR

RBI

Avg

AGE

OBA

SPct

OPS

Peak

61

1937

Harlond

Clift

Browns

29

118

.306

24

.413

.546

.960

25.93

62

1971

Rico

Petrocelli

Red Sox

28

89

.251

28

.354

.461

.815

25.75

63

2017

Anthony

Rendon

Nationals

25

100

.301

27

.403

.533

.937

25.70

64

1989

Bobby

Bonilla

Pirates

24

86

.281

26

.358

.490

.848

25.67

65

1908

Hans

Lobert

Reds

4

63

.293

26

.348

.407

.755

25.51

66

2014

Kyle

Seager

Mariners

25

96

.268

26

.334

.454

.788

25.40

67

2012

Chase

Headley

Padres

31

115

.286

28

.376

.498

.875

25.18

68

1976

Graig

Nettles

Yankees

32

93

.254

31

.327

.475

.802

25.17

69

1914

Ed

Lennox

Rebels

11

84

.312

28

.414

.493

.907

25.03

70

1927

Pie

Traynor

Pirates

5

106

.342

27

.370

.455

.825

24.81

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

71

1951

Eddie

Yost

Senators

12

65

.283

24

.423

.424

.847

24.75

72

2017

Jose

Ramirez

Indians

29

83

.318

24

.374

.583

.957

24.68

73

1975

Bill

Madlock

Cubs

7

64

.354

24

.402

.479

.881

24.67

74

1969

Sal

Bando

Athletics

31

113

.281

25

.400

.484

.885

24.64

75

2015

Manny

Machado

Orioles

35

86

.286

22

.359

.502

.861

24.63

76

1993

Matt

Williams

Giants

38

110

.294

27

.325

.561

.886

24.57

77

1891

Billy

Nash

Braves

5

95

.276

26

.369

.382

.750

24.48

78

1902

Lave

Cross

Athletics

0

108

.342

36

.374

.440

.814

24.46

79

1910

Bobby

Byrne

Pirates

2

52

.296

25

.366

.417

.783

24.38

80

1928

Jimmie

Foxx

Athletics

13

79

.327

20

.416

.547

.964

24.36

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

81

1939

Red

Rolfe

Yankees

14

80

.329

30

.404

.495

.899

24.36

82

2016

Nolan

Arenado

Rockies

41

133

.294

25

.362

.570

.932

24.27

83

1890

Billy

Shindle

Quakers

10

90

.322

29

.369

.481

.851

24.09

84

1951

Bobby

Thomson

Giants

32

101

.293

27

.385

.562

.947

24.05

85

1897

Bobby

Wallace

Spiders

4

112

.335

23

.394

.504

.898

24.02

86

1891

Duke

Farrell

Red Stockings

12

110

.302

24

.384

.474

.858

23.98

87

1888

Jerry

Denny

Hoosiers

12

63

.261

29

.277

.408

.685

23.95

88

1913

Red

Smith

Dodgers

6

76

.296

23

.358

.441

.799

23.92

89

1997

Vinny

Castilla

Rockies

40

113

.304

29

.356

.547

.904

23.88

90

2016

Justin

Turner

Dodgers

27

90

.275

31

.339

.493

.832

23.87

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

91

1912

Larry

Gardner

Red Sox

3

86

.315

26

.383

.449

.832

23.83

92

1953

Ray

Boone

2 Teams

26

114

.296

29

.390

.519

.909

23.81

93

1949

George

Kell

Tigers

3

59

.343

26

.424

.467

.892

23.70

94

2009

Pablo

Sandoval

Giants

25

90

.330

22

.387

.556

.943

23.67

95

1911

Harry

Lord

White Sox

3

61

.321

29

.364

.433

.797

23.61

96

1964

Pete

Ward

White Sox

23

94

.282

24

.348

.473

.821

23.61

97

2008

Aramis

Ramirez

Cubs

27

111

.289

30

.380

.518

.898

23.60

98

1919

Buck

Weaver

White Sox

3

75

.296

28

.315

.401

.716

23.59

99

1940

Bill

Werber

Reds

12

48

.277

32

.361

.416

.777

23.51

100

1987

Tim

Wallach

Expos

26

123

.298

29

.343

.514

.858

23.40

 

              It is interesting that the #1 and #2 men are (a) both Phillies, (b) friends, and (c) both playing short seasons, Allen because of miscellaneous injuries and suspensions, and Schmidt because of the strike.  The system is set up to discriminate against short-season players, but both players played at such a high level, and with such strong seasons in the surrounding years, that they overcome this liability.

              Amazing how many Hall of Famers have a drop-in season at third base—Foxx, Frisch, George Davis, Honus Wagner, Mel Ott, etc.  The real reason I went to 100 here is that I was going to do 60, but Harlond Clift ranks 61st, and I love Harlond Clift.  

 
 

COMMENTS (33 Comments, most recent shown first)

Manushfan
Here's the thing that always interested me-Madlock was NOT a good 3b, and then the Giants-put him at second. That never made sense to me. He had a really good bat, yes-but putting him at second? Was this more a case of the Giants in 77-78 not having a better option? I'm half picturing Orta now.​
8:14 AM Feb 7th
 
MidnighttheCat
I am not sure how Zeile and Alfonso can rank ahead of the season Scott Brosius had in 1998.

He hit .300, had an OBP of .371, hit 19 HR and drove in 98 runs. He made 22 errors in 150 games, but I don't recall Alfonso or Zeile being Brooks Robinson either.

Plus Brosius won a WS game with a home run off the second most famous closer of the era. Did he get left out of the study? He never even breaks the top 10.
6:03 AM Feb 6th
 
LesLein
Dick Allen suffered a bad hand injury around August 24, 1967. He was placed on the disabled list for the last 40 games. Before that he hadn't missed a game. There was no suspension that year. I think his first suspension was in 1968.

The injury jeopardized Allen's career. In 1968 the Phillies wanted a contract clause that relieved them of paying him if he couldn't play. Allen refused. This started Allen's hostility towards the Phillies management.
5:59 PM Feb 3rd
 
r44fletch

2014, Matt Carpenter looks pretty puny up there at number 2.
8:46 AM Feb 2nd
 
MarisFan61
Brock: Love your little method for using those New Historical Abstract rankings for the long-long ago players!
I agree that it's instructive.
11:36 PM Feb 1st
 
Brock Hanke
337 - You're right; I didn't know you were joking. Part of this is a conversation I've had with a few people, where I note that Greg Maddux has higher ERA+ in 1994 and 1995 than the surrounding seasons, and I suspect that part of that is that Greg knew that work stoppages were coming, so he could go all out more often while he was in there, because he wouldn't have to pitch his usual IP. My opponents scoffed at the idea that Maddux knew when work stoppages were coming, and I had to patiently explain that EVERYONE knew this, because of the money timing. I knew that there would be a late-season strike before 1994 even got started, and the owners were hardly tight-lipped about the 1995 lockout.

About Traynor - I have a trick that has served me well when dealing with things like this. Go to the New Historical, if you're dealing with careers that ended at least 17 years ago, and find your player. Pie Traynor ranks 15th at 3B. Now, go up the list towards #1, looking for players who 1) outrank the player in question, and 2) played before he did. The only 3B to fit those criteria for Traynor is Home Run Baker. Jimmy Collins, ranked 17th, has NO ONE who fits those criteria, because he played before even Baker. George Sisler has no one except Anson, Brothers and Connor, who weren't eligible for the ballot where he was elected, because they were 19th century guys. A lot of reputations and Hall selections make sense if you do that. Wee Willie Keeler ranks 44th or something in RF, but there is NO ONE who was better who played earlier. Explains a lot about how some guy who had no power and took no walks could be so famous and so easily voted into the Hall.

These lists of Bill's here have uses you wouldn't expect, too. Why isn't Ken Boyer in the Hall, although he ranks there by the New Historical system, which covers other aspects than just career accumulation, and therefore is still the very best ranking system that's out there? Well, he had ZERO seasons where he was the #1 3B in the game. Why not even one? His career was contemporaneous with Eddie Matthews, and the last 2/3 of it were contemporaneous with Ron Santo. Boyer's best season was 1960. Eddie Mathews' best season was also 1960. That's almost as bad as having Mike Schmidt and George Brett in the game at the same time. Lots of really interesting stuff here.
10:49 PM Feb 1st
 
Manushfan
Oh I'm sure that's true, Home Run Baker was the better player, and you have Hack and Clift and co's peaks. But -it's right there-Pie's in the upper crust.
1:53 PM Feb 1st
 
Robinsong
I am sure that for YOPDI summaries Bill rates a player in at the position he thinks is best (e.g., Carew at 2nd) using the history of the player at all positions. ARod will be ranked high at SS and it will include his points for 3B
12:01 PM Feb 1st
 
Robinsong
I think that Bill would regard Baker as far better than Traynor - a much higher peak and greater dominance though for fewer years due to his salary dispute
11:51 AM Feb 1st
 
raincheck
I was surprised by ARod at first, but then I realized Bill must have a "recent Yankee" adjustment. It only makes sense.
9:31 AM Feb 1st
 
rpmcsweeney
Arod doesn't appear on the list of greatest 3rd basemen by career--is that an oversight, or does he not make the list? It seems like several years as the best at the position, plus several more in the top 10 or so would do the trick, but maybe I'm missing something.
9:08 AM Feb 1st
 
Manushfan
Traynor's peak isn't that great but yeah his overall--not bad. I like Sal Bando too. Doesn't get much play.
8:38 AM Feb 1st
 
bhalbleib
I am looking forward to the shortstops. I predict that we will see that while George Brett does not like this metric, Davey Concepcion very much does.
7:57 AM Feb 1st
 
bhalbleib
Interesting that this metric (acknowledging that Bill himself says it is only a tool, not the end all of metrics for evaluating players) would suggest that the Old-Timers got it right when they thought that Pie Traynor was the greatest 3Bman until Eddie Mathews came along.
7:55 AM Feb 1st
 
Brock Hanke
337 - What happened in 1994 was that the players went on strike late in the season, and stayed on strike throughout the postseason, forcing the cancellation of the World Series. In 1995, IIRC, the season started late, because the owners staged a lockout.

The reason for both have to do with money timing. A player gets paid by the month or two weeks or whatever as the season goes along. So, you want to play most of the season before you strike, so you have most of your yearly salary in hand when you walk out. The owners get most of their money at the end of the year, via pennant-race games and the postseason. So they staged a lockout early in the season, when the players hadn't been paid anything yet, and there was still time to settle before the owners got theirs.
4:08 AM Feb 1st
 
MarisFan61
......should have mentioned also, the major part of why their offensive "production" would have been even close in the first place, despite A-Rod having so many more Runs Created -- this has a relation to the data that Bill gave but most basically it's an additional thing -- is that the run environments were so different. It's not all of it but it's almost all of it.
(A-Rod's Runs Created was about 27% higher; his run environment, taking account of park factor as well as overall-league, was very roughly 25% higher; i.e. the average runs-scored per team was 20.6% higher and his park factor was about 4-5% higher.)
1:50 AM Feb 1st
 
MarisFan61
Bill: Thanks for that data on A-Rod and Hojo. In fact, looking at those data, if anything we might wonder how A-Rod is even close to Hojo in the Win Shares for those respective years, much less ahead of him (tinily).

And, I think there are a couple of reasons for it. (Probably a lot more but I'm talking about these two.) :-)

A basic tenet of the Win Share system (please anyone strike this if it's wrong or misleading, especially of course Bill) is that with a given amount of production by a player, his Win Share amount is quite independent of the team. So, yes, Hojo had an insane % of his team's Runs Created and A-Rod had only a terrific %, but on things like OPS+, their numbers were very similar to each other, and so we'd expect their Win Share amounts to be similar, rather than Hojo being far ahead (assuming that their fielding wasn't far apart).

But there's another thing that makes A-Rod keep pace with Hojo on these respective years. (BTW I know it must sound odd to be explaining why A-Rod "keeps pace with" Howard Johnson!)

A big thing that might make a player do significantly better or worse on Win Shares than would be suggested by anything coming from his bare numbers, including something like % of his team's Runs Created, is the team's efficiency in using its runs, or more fully, in using its runs scored vs. runs given up.
A simpler way of seeing this is just how their actual record compares with the Pythagorean projection.

In those respective years, the Yanks did several percent better than would be suggested by their runs figures (5% to 6% better), and the Mets did a few percent worse (4% to 5%).
That means A-Rod sort of gets a 10% "bonus" of sorts, compared to Hojo, from pure individual production.
'Bonus' being in quotes, because I do think it's real rather than a bonus, and I do think there's a high chance that A-Rod had some responsibility for the greater efficiency and Hojo perhaps for the lesser. But I'm just talking about factors making the Win Shares come out as they do despite Hojo's having the much higher % of his team's Runs Created.

Hojo's Win Share figure for the year, surprisingly impressive though it is, actually suffered because of how his team's runs laid out, and A-Rod benefited several percent because of how his team's runs laid out.​
10:20 PM Jan 31st
 
tangotiger
Like everyone else, I was looking for Beltre. Looking at WAR on baseball reference, and he is up-and-down for the most part. However, from 2010-2016, he was pretty much always up. Top WAR for 3B in that time period, and Beltre is way ahead of the field:

wins Player
46 Beltre
35 Longoria
33 Donaldson
25 Prado
24 Machado
24 Seager
24 Headley
7:10 PM Jan 31st
 
sayhey
(Sorry, someone made the same point earlier--I searched "Beltre," but I don't think the search function extends to the comments.)
6:19 PM Jan 31st
 
sayhey
Beltre never ranks higher than 3rd for any one season; that must be rare for a positional player who's pretty much guaranteed to be a first-ballot HOF'er.
6:17 PM Jan 31st
 
bjames
ARod and Hojo. . . .Alex Rodriguez in 2005 created about 162 runs. However, his team (the Yankees) scored 968 runs and allowed 777 runs, so ARod is responsible for 162 of the 1745 runs in the games of his teams, or 9 point something percent. 9.3%, I think.

Howard Johnson in 1989 created only about 127 runs. However, the New York Mets scored only 683 runs and allowed only 595 runs, a total of 1,278. So Hojo is responsible for almost exactly TEN percent of the runs scored in Mets games in that season. So. . .Johnson would have had more impact on the outcome of the games that he played in, as a hitter, than A-Rod did, in all likelihood.
4:40 PM Jan 31st
 
hotstatrat
Maris - Howard Johnson underrated? Are you considering all the fielding and baserunning blunders he was famous for? He was such an embarassment to Sparky Anderson in 1984, that he was benched for the post season to avoid national disgrace. Detroit won it all without him.
4:36 PM Jan 31st
 
MarisFan61
Bill: I realized that Alex's greatest peak value is likely to be at shortstop, but I'd say it's still extremely surprising that for 3rd base, a guy who had 2 MVP years and those several other phat years, including a 54 HR/24 SB year and several similar years, and who was (I guess) a quite-good defensive third baseman (plus hey, he's A-Rod!) :-) would actually be behind someone like Heinie Groh and just a touch ahead of Howard Johnson.

BTW, even recognizing that it's (as you say) "just a list," I guess it suggests pretty strongly that Groh was far better than is usually imagined.
I hesitate to say the same about HoJo because we SAW him, and while I do think he was better during his peak than most people thought, I'm feeling a resistance to saying he was far better -- but maybe he was too.
2:36 PM Jan 31st
 
bsmeal
This system is almost uniquely ill-suited for Beltre. I believe it scores an individual year based on the 5 year period in which it is centered (1/2/6/2/1). Beltre almost never put his best seasons back-to-back, and his single best season (2004) was bracketed by two down seasons, so you end with his peak value being #58 despite having several outstanding individual seasons. As a one-off, his 2004 season, is perhaps better than anything put up by Boggs or Brett.
1:23 PM Jan 31st
 
pgaskill
«40 Homers, 113 RBI, .304 average both seasons. Do you have any idea what the odds against that are?»

Just for a wild guess, about maybe one in 176,715 or so? ;-)
1:14 PM Jan 31st
 
bjames
I don't think it is especially unusual for a #1 player at third base to shift to another position. Third base is in the center of the defensive spectrum, and responds to pressures from both directions. Dick Allen was the #1 player at third base in 1967, moved to left field in 1968. Mel Ott was the #1 third baseman in 1938, the only year he played third base. Bob Elliott was the #1 third baseman in 1945, moved to right field in 1946. Fred Lindstrom was the #1 third baseman in 1930, moved to right field in 1931. Third base is just like that; if you have pressure on the right side of the defensive spectrum, the third baseman can be shifted to left field or first base; if you have pressure on the left side, the third baseman can be shifted to right field, center field or even shortstop. I remember the Phillies playing Mike Schmidt at shortstop sometimes, as late as 1987, because they had other guys who could play third but nobody else who could play shortstop for a game or two. Rogers Hornsby was the #2 third baseman in baseball the only year that he played third base, and Frankie Frisch I think was the #1 third baseman in baseball in 1921, went back to second base in 1922.

There is a famous "fact" about Ken Keltner, that he ran two Hall of Famers off of third base. Lou Boudreau (who was terribly slow) was more of a third-base type player than a shortstop, but had to play shortstop because Ken Keltner owned third base for the Indians, and Bob Lemon switched to pitching because he wasn't going to run Keltner off of third. Third is just like that; it's the middle of the spectrum, so guys get pushed both ways.
12:11 PM Jan 31st
 
bjames
Peak Value on this list is Peak Value at the position. I'm guessing A-Rod's peak value for his career is at shortstop, and will show up on the shortstop list.
11:58 AM Jan 31st
 
MarisFan61
There's even more that's pretty shocking, isn't there?

What about A-Rod only being FOURTEENTH on peak value, just below Heinie Groh?
(BTW, not criticizing or disagreeing or anything, just noting it)

Killebrew being just below (below) HoJo on peak?
(likewise)
BTW I do know that HoJo had some extremely impressive statistical years.

And Bill, thrilled you went to #100 rather than just 60, and not just because it meant Clift could be included. :-)
I love seeing the kinds of names we see when such lists go to 100.
It's one of the things I loved about the last Historical Abstract, and also loved that you included those brief listings all the way down to #125.


11:57 AM Jan 31st
 
bjames
Chipper Jones' years in Left Field are NOT lost to his YOPDI score; he ranks as the #5 or #6 left fielder in those years, and picks up 9 points in his YOPDI score over those two years. As he obviously should when you think it through. The YOPDI score is a measure of what THE PLAYER accomplished; it is a way of asking "How dominant was THIS PLAYER at his position." The positional rankings are secondary; it's a measure of what the player has done.
11:56 AM Jan 31st
 
Robinsong
Enjoyed this, as usual. The most surprising things to me: Dick Allen's ranking on peak; Heinie Groh; Howard Johnson; and Brooks Robinson's low rating on YOPDI.
11:46 AM Jan 31st
 
Zeke**
I'm surprised that when discussing Rolen overtaking Chipper in 2002, Bill didn't mention the oddity of the Braves banishing him to LF for two years to make room for, if memory serves, the aforementioned Vinny Castilla. It's got to be historically unusual for a #1 player to be moved down the defensive spectrum to make room for somebody who wasn't even on the list anymore...

It's not immediately obvious to me if those two lost years of YOPDI make any difference where Chipper falls on the all-time list...eyeballing it, I'd guess he probably still wouldn't overtake Mathews even if he'd hung on to #1 for both?
11:36 AM Jan 31st
 
MarisFan61
.....and David Wright shows remarkably well -- 8 years in a row in the top 3. (And 9 in the top 4, but somehow 4th feels way worse to me than 3rd -- anyone else? Anyone else have the same gut feeling that 3rd is still something to write home about and 4th is like 'kissing your sister'?)

I see a lot of ranking stuff that way.
1st is special, 2nd and 3rd both still terrific (and both about the same), 4th is kind of nothing.
11:32 AM Jan 31st
 
3for3
Surprised Beltre was never even top 2
10:43 AM Jan 31st
 
 
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