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What Joba Means to the Yankees

March 5, 2009
 
The New York Yankees have been around since 1903, a stretch of one hundred and five seasons. Over that stretch, they have been the most successful team in baseball history, winning more games, pennants, and championships than any other club.
 
About the only thing the Yankees have been bad at during those one hundred and five years is cultivating young pitchers. They’ve been especially bad at bringing up right-handed pitchers. 
 
How bad? In their entire team history, the Yankees have brought up exactly three right-handed pitchers who went on to win 100 games for the team:
 
Name
Wins
Age as Rookie
Mel Stottlemyre
164
22
Vic Raschi
120
27
Spud Chandler
109
29
 
Of the three, only Stottlemyre, who was twenty-two when he broke in with the Yankees, could be considered a ‘young’ pitcher. Vic Raschi was twenty-seven when he made the Yankee rotation, and twenty-nine when he had his first full season with the team. Spud Chandler, the only Yankee pitcher to win an MVP, broke in when he was twenty-nine, but didn’t notch 200+ innings until he was thirty-four.
 
It is a remarkable fact: in the one-hundred year history of the New York Yankees, they have brought up and benefited from exactly one good young right-handed starter: Mel Stottlemyre.
 
Any casual fan of baseball knows why. The Yankees have always been one of the wealthiest teams in baseball. And they have always been a team that expects to win. Both characteristics work against young pitchers: a team expected to win can’t tolerate a struggling rookie, and a team with plenty of financial capital has no particular reason to.
 
A third factor working against right-handed pitchers was the park itself. Yankee Stadium, built in 1923, was a great park for left-handed pitchers. Not surprisingly, the Yankees have brought up a number of successful young southpaws:
 
Name
Wins
Age as Rookie
Whitey Ford
236
21
Lefty Gomez
189
21
Andy Pettitte
178
23
Ron Guidry
170
24
Fritz Paterson
107
24
 
Not on the list is Dave Righetti, another lefty who came up in 1979, winning 74 games and saved 224 more for the Bronx Bombers.
 
The Tipping Point
 
The Yankees have has a very successful century without having to ever bring up good young pitchers. They have succeeded, in part, because for most of the 1900’s they had a wider pool of talent than other teams. For much of the decade, teams like the Red Sox and A’s operated as farm clubs for the Yankee machine.
 
Since free agency began, the Yankees have succeeded because they have more financial resources available than other teams, and have been more willing than other teams to pay for free agents.
 
This is largely a supposition, but I think the strategy of out-buying everyone can’t work forever. The system of buying up all the free agent talent has reached a tipping point, and now the cost of signing superstar free agents is starting to outstrip the return. Simply put, signing the two biggest free agents every year costs too much in prospects, and it costs too much in roster flexibility.
 
The second point is worth further mention. When a team commits money and talent to acquire an expensive free agent player, that team is limiting its flexibility. If CC Sabathia suddenly loses his efficiency, the Yankees will not get their 1st round draft pick back. They won’t get the money back. If they trade him, they will be subsidizing his work for another team. And, if Sabathia can only pitch at a sub-par level, the Yankees will have to let him pitch. They have committed too many resources not to.
 
Younger pitchers allow for flexibility. They are tradable commodities. They can be rotated in and out of the rotation as needed, brought up or down as necessary. And they are inexpensive, and const controlled.
 
The other teams in the AL East, most notably Tampa Bay and Boston, realize this. And if the Yankees want to have a second century as good as their last one, they have to realize it, too. They have to start developing young pitchers.  
 
What Joba Means to the Yankees
 
I think the year that Joba Chamberlain has for the Yankees will tell us how the next ten years will be for the Yankees organization.
 
In case you missed it, Joba Chamberlain is one of the five best young arms in baseball. Last year, only six players have a better ERA in starts than Chamberlain did.
 
Name
ERA
Rich Harden
2.07
Johan Santana
2.53
Cliff Lee
2.54
Justin Duchschere
2.54
Tim Lincecum
2.62
CC Sabathia
2.70
Chamberlain
2.76
Roy Halladay
2.78
Jake Peavy
2.85
 
He also averaged 10.19 K/9 IP during those starts, the third-best total among major league starters.
 
Name
K/9 IP
Rich Harden
11.01
Tim Lincecum
10.51
Chamberlain
10.19
Scott Kazmir
9.81
Edinson Volquez
9.46
 
He pitched one of the finest games I saw all season, when he took on the Red Sox in Fenway Park, on July 25th. Matched against Josh Beckett, with the Yankees needing a win to keep pace with Boston and Tampa Bay, Chamberlain threw seven stunning innings, allowing three singles and a walk while striking out nine batters.
 
It was more than a great start. It was a remarkable, intelligent performance, a display of pitching mastery that revealed Chamberlain’s remarkable skill.
 
As I said, how Chamberlain does in 2009 will say a great deal about where the Yankee organization is going.
 
Manager Joe Girardi has said that the team is committed to letting Chamberlain start this year. That said, a cursory glance at his career with the Yankees shows little very little consistency.
 
Joba Chamberlain had been a starting pitcher his entire life. He was a starter in college, and he was a starter in the minor leagues in 2007. So what do the Yankees do when he makes it to the majors? They put him in the bullpen.
 
You know how the Yankees reasoned this? They said that the team didn’t have room for Chamberlain, that the rotation was full. That they couldn’t afford to give him starts.
 
And it’s horseshit. In the two months that Chamberlain was being wasted in the bullpen, Mike Mussina made nine starts, posting a pitiful 5.92 ERA. Andy Pettitte made eleven starts and posted a 4.22 ERA. Roger Clemens made seven starts and posted a 4.67 ERA.
 
I’ll say this again: Chamberlain posted a 2.76 ERA as a starter in 2008. You don’t think he could have managed an ERA under four in 2007?
 
It wasn’t skill that kept Mussina and Pettitte and Clemens in the rotation. It was their salaries. The Yankees were too committed.
 
In 2008 Chamberlain was again in the bullpen. It makes sense: why would anyone give the ball to a twenty-two year old who averages 10.5 strikeouts per nine innings, when you have the likes of Sydney Ponson and Darrell Rasner begging for starts.
 
Apparently that’s changed. In spring training this year Girardi pegged Chamberlain as the team’s #5 starter. He seems adamant about this, but one can’t help but sense that it’s a tenuous #5. If he has a bad month, is he still going to have a job? What if the Yankees are five games out of first? What if Hughes is pitching well? What if they trade for someone like Jake Peavy?
 
Joba Chamberlain is a barometer for where the Yankees are going. If the Yankees give him a chance; if they endure the inevitable bumps on the road, then they will be a very good team over the next decade. If the Yankees are really smart, they will extend the same chance to Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy, and even Alfredo Aceves.
 
But if they submit again to the ‘win-now’ pressures of the last thirty years, they will deny Chamberlain the chance to be great, they will handicap their franchise against teams like Tampa Bay and Boston and Toronto, and they will rob the rest of us the pleasure of watching a great career unfold.
 
(Dave Fleming is a writing living in Iowa City. He welcomes comments, questions, and suggestions here and at dfleming1986@yahoo.com).
 
 

COMMENTS (15 Comments, most recent shown first)

ventboys
I agree with Rusty on this one. I get sick and tired of people saying that Joba is more valuable in the pen. Of course he is not, if he can make 30 starts and pitch 180-200 innings in the rotation that is much more valuable than 80-90 innings in the pen. However, Joba has already had an issue with the starter's workload, he is still well within the (age related) injury nexus, and the Yankees have other options in camp. In my own opinion Joba is better than most of them, a LOT better than some of them, but that's not neccessarily worth the injury risk. If it's me I let him have the 5th starter spot, use him in multi inning relief twice a week when he is available, limit him to 70-80 pitches in his starts and toss somene else in there if there is any doubt about his health and freshness. That way he could get 15 or so starts, 80 innings or so, and add another 30 or so relief appearances, 60 more innings, without pushing him too far. 140-150 innings, with low stress and no pitching tired. I hate the Yankees, so I am happy that they won't use him correctly, but I like Joba, so I feel for him....
5:24 PM Mar 8th
 
oikrusty
On the other hand, you do have the issue of the kid's arm falling off. 200+ IP a year on the ML level can be tough on a young arm. I think Chamberlain could help the Yankees more in middle relief. Which is NOT to say I don't appreciate his talent and value at present. Having an ace flamethrower to pitch in tight situations--- 2 or 3 innings after the starter gets rocked with the score 5-7, two batters with runners on in the 8th, the occasional save when Rivera's tired, the occasional spot start--- is one hell of a trump card.

Yes, I know the Yankees have rotation problems (who doesn't?) Still, I have the definite feeling that Chamberlain can be a great pitcher, and that rushing him into a workhorse role is far too risky. Injuries are a huge factor in the development of pitchers. Why would you ask for trouble with a talent like this? Let him ease into it, and with any luck, 27 year old Joba might anchor your rotation. To ask that of him now, I think is foolish.
8:52 AM Mar 8th
 
jollydodger
The numbers show me Rich Harden's frailty is a tragedy and Tim Lincecum is good.
6:26 PM Mar 7th
 
Trailbzr
That 1915 A's staff was so bad that BillJ had to create a special rule to prevent their Win Shares from dropping below zero (WS p130).
They were the only real major league team he had to use it for. (1890 Pittsburgh Innocents and 1899 Cleveland Spiders)

5:42 PM Mar 6th
 
jrickert
There appear to be several dozen ways to go through this data.
For example, the number of pitchers who debuted with the A's is 463.
The next most is 374 with Detroit (89 less than the A's).
The least of the original 16 is 295 with the Giants (79 less than Detroit)

Looking at the number of 100G winners who debuted with teams, the percent of their career wins that they had before leaving, and the number who won 100 with the team:
CLE 34 0.50 10 STL 37 0.45 10
DET 27 0.56 14 PIT 32 0.47 10
NYY 27 0.50 8 LAD 30 0.48 12
OAK 23 0.51 8 SFG 27 0.52 10
BAL 20 0.50 7 CHC 22 0.42 7
BOS 20 0.47 4 ATL 21 0.56 6
MIN 19 0.60 7 CIN 21 0.43 7
CHW 17 0.75 7 PHI 16 0.38 4
Then there's the expansion teams
HOU 10 0.69 5 KCR 9 0.63 5 TOR 10 0.61 5
NYM 10 0.41 3 WSN 9 0.42 1 SEA 9 0.23 0
ANA 9 0.57 3 SDP 5 0.50 1
TEX 7 0.32 0 MIL 4 0.45 0 FLA 1 0.16 0
And Balt. in the Federal League 1 0.00 0 (Howard Ehmke)

The number of 100 G winners who won all their games for the team:
6 CLE
5 NYY CHW
4 LAD CIN
3 PIT SFG BOS MIN
2 DET BAL
1 STL OAK ATL
0 CHC PHI

Something more suited to a graph would be a look at the number of wins expected for the top pitchers for an original team, or a round 1 expansion team, etc. (which gets past the arbitrary nature of using 100 wins)

Taking a look at the number of career wins for pitchers who made their debut in a particular year, which bounces around wildly, will likely need to be smoothed somehow to get much information out of it. The leaders are
709 1880 Trenton 4 pitchers
677 1912 A's 7 pitchers
610+ 1986 Cubs 3 pitchers
591 1967 Mets 8 pitchers
535 1875 St.L. Brown Stockings 2 pitchers
521 1942 Braves 7 pitchers
The Braves lead in wins for the original team with 479,
mostly Warren Spahn and Johnny Sain (you can end the refrain)

The 1915 A's had 22 debut pitchers, who won 181 games (50 with the A's). 4 LHP and 18 RHP.
The 1928 Red Sox had 7 debut pitchers. none ever won an ML game.

And then there's adjusting for strikeout rates to make projections...


1:35 PM Mar 6th
 
DaveFleming
Well, most good young pitchers with high strikeout rates have some control issues early on, so I wouldn't be worried. It takes a whole lot of negatives to offset a twenty-two year old who averages 10 K/9 IP.
1:24 PM Mar 6th
 
Kev
Hey, Dave,

As a Yankee fan, I hope you're right about Joba, but I think his presumed canonization is premature(coincidentally he was blown up,last nite; claimed poor mechanics. Of course that's not something that proves much, but it was the way he pitched--no control at all, a true loose cannon). He has yet to put in a full major-league season--frankly, I'm a bit nervous.
12:39 PM Mar 6th
 
DaveFleming
A quick add-on: 100 wins is arbitrary. The Yanks and Red Sox look much better if the bar is lowered slightly.

The Yanks have brought up 7 pitchers who won 100+ games (Ford, Gomez, Pettitte, Guidry, Stottlemyre, Raschi, Chandler). The Red Sox have brought up 4 (Clemens, Parnell, Wood, Stanley)

Drop the bar to 90 games, and the Yanks have brought up 10 pitchers (the seven above, plus Caldwell, Jhnny Murphy, and George Pipgras). The Red Sox also have ten pitchers (the four above, plus Monbouquette, Tex Hughson, Bill Lee,Tom Brewer, Frank Sullivan, and Dutch Leonard).

Drop the bar to 80 wins, and the Red Sox have prooduced 17 pitchers: Ruth, Hurst, Kinder, Ray Collins, Ike Delook, and George Wheeler. The Yankees stay at ten.

At seventy games, the Yankees add Tiny Bonkam, Ray Fisher, Dave Righetti, Russ Ford, and Al Downing. The Sox get Carl Mays.

The Sox look grim at the 100-win bar, but they do well if the bar is lowered to 90+ wins, or 80+ wins.

Intersting stuff.




12:11 PM Mar 6th
 
Trailbzr
The Yanks might have dumped Stottlemeyer too, if he hadn't had a Jewish-sounding name (I don't know his actual religious preference.)
The winter after his rookie year, David Cone was invited to speak at many Bar Mitzvahs, until it was reported that his name had been shortened from McCone at Ellis Island.
9:53 AM Mar 6th
 
DaveFleming
Jrickert, that was really interesting. I was going to do the same thing as an addendum, but you beat me to it.

A few guys who didn't make the Red Sox list: Carl Mays was one of the Sox traded during the firesales to the Yankees And there's some guy named George Ruth who sure looked like a 100-game winner. Not sure what happened to him.

Anyway, really great stuff, jrickert. Thanks for sharing.
8:27 AM Mar 6th
 
ventboys
Jrick, that is some great research, please finish what you started, we don't care if it's long.
4:16 AM Mar 6th
 
ventboys
Nice article, Dave, with a lot of research possibilities. I have a couple of quick thoughts, before I dig into BBR.com.

-Joba is one of my keepers in my fantasy league, over guys like Ervin Santana, Joe Nathan, Scott Baker, Matt Garza and Rich Harden. We keep 10.

-His Dad has health issues, and is a very big man. Joba is big as well, and it's possible that this could matter as he gets older.

-I was old enough to have seen him, and I can't believe that I missed that Stottlemyre was a righty. I thought that he was a lefty.

-Am I the only one that thinks that Joba looks a LOT like Babe Ruth?
4:10 AM Mar 6th
 
jrickert
I guess I'm in agreement with the old Earl Weaver argument that young pitchers should start in the bullpen and gradually ramp up their workload. I think that rushing Chamberlin into the starting rotation would have denied Chamberlin the chance to be great. My recollection is that the Yankees had an IP limit on Chamberlin (mentioned in http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3356490)
As it is, I'm concerned that the win-now pressures will lead to him being used too heavily and shorten his career, perhaps the the point where he fails to win 100 games.

Regarding just how bad the Yankees have been at cultivating young right-handed pitchers, I looked at this in the 80's (Because the Brewers have been horrible at developing young pitchers), and I didn't think the Yankees record looks all that bad. It's rather poor, given their long-term success, but I don't think it's as bad as you say.

To check this, I updated my lists, and found 175 pitchers who won 100 games with their debut franchises.
Taking the original 16 franchises and looking at how many RHP they developed, counting players who debuted after 1900 (listed by league in order of WL record):

Yankees 8 pitchers, 3 RHP ages 22,27,29 (26.0)
Tigers 13 pitchers, 10 RHP ages 19,20,21,22,22,23,23,23,24,24,24 (22.5)
Red Sox 4 pitchers, 3 RHP ages 18,21,22 (20.3)
Indians 11 pitchers, 9 RHP ages 17,18,19,20,20,20,22,23,24 (20.3)
WhiteSox 7 pitchers, 6 RHP ages 21,22,23,23,24,25 (22.7)
Athletics 8 pitchers, 4 RHP ages 19,19,22,23 (20.75)
Twins 7 pitchers, 4 RHP ages 19,20,22,24 (21.25)
Orioles 7 pitchers, 4 RHP ages 18,19,21,22 (20.0)

Giants 10 pitchers, 7 RHP ages 20,20,22,23,23,24,26 (22.7)
(Mathewson debuted in 1900, age 19)
Dodgers 12 pitchers, 8 RHP ages 19,20,20,21,21,21,23,24 (21.1)
Pirates 10 pitchers, 6 RHP ages 20,20,22,22,25,31 (23.3)
Cards 10 pitchers, 6 RHP ages 20,22,23,24,24,25 (23.0)
Cubs 7 pitchers, 7 RHP ages 21,21,22,22,23,24,25 (22.7)
(top Cubs lefty Dick Ellsworth 84)
Reds 7 pitchers, 5 RHP ages 19,20,20,20,29 (21.6)
Braves 6 pitchers, 4 RHP ages 21,21,24,25 (22.75)
Phillies 4 pitchers, 2 RHP ages 21,24 (22.5)

Average 8.2 pitchers, 5.5 RHP age 22.0

Still, the Red Sox developing only 4 such pitchers total, and the Cubs never developing a LHP are also somewhat unusual. On the other hand, when the numbers get this small, unusual breakdowns are fairly common.
I wonder what would happen if we instead broke it at 1% of the franchises wins since 1900. (Yankees 94, RedSox 86, Phillies 78... Yankees add none, Red Sox 4, Phillies 1)
One other thing to look at is the career win totals of these pitchers. How many successful pitchers (100 wins) did the Yankees (or Indians) give up on before 100 wins (or 10 wins)? But this comment is quite long already.


1:14 AM Mar 6th
 
Richie
Outstanding research, good article, then a bit heavy on the hysterics come conclusion time.

Earl Weaver also would've put Joba in the bullpen, where the Yankees did also need the help.

The Yankees universe will not revolve around JobaJobaJoba. They could well finish behind Boston and Tampa with Joba in the rotation. They could well win 95 games without him.

If forced to choose one key variable for the Yankees this year, I'd pick Burnett, not Joba.
11:06 PM Mar 5th
 
evanecurb
Dave:

You make some very good points, especially about their lack of development of young right handed starters. Taken as a whole, I agree with your thesis. I have a couple of things to add that may be inconsistent with what you are saying:
1. The decline of the Yankees in 2008 has been greatly overstated. They won 89 games, which ain't bad, and they had more injuries than expected. The jury is still out on whether or not their old strategy of signing free agents for big bucks will work or not. It hasn't been disproven yet.
2. The Yankees have had a few good young right handed pitchers, although none of them except the three you mention have 100 wins. Off the top of my head, I can name Jim Bouton, Wang, Steve Kline, Bill Stafford, and Bob Turley. Admittedly, none of these guys were successful long term, but they were young, right handed, and successful when young. I did notice that the guys I can think of all came up during the Stengel-Houk years, which was a long time ago. So your greater point remains true. The Yankees haven't developed any right handed starters (aside from Wang) in a long, long time.

Mel Stottlemyre always will hold a special place in my heart. He pitched for Richmond in the very first minor league game I ever attended in person, in 1964 (I was seven) and pitched a complete game shutout. Six years later, I attended my first major league game, at Yankee Stadium, and Stottlemyre pitched a complete game victory, beating Clyde Wright and the Angels (5-1 if I remember correctly).
8:39 PM Mar 5th
 
 
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