Remember me

Blake Griffin

March 30, 2009

            I’m a huge fan of Oklahoma’s Blake Griffin.   In an earlier article I posed the question, “Who was the last college player who was this good?”   The Big 12 has had arguably the best player in college the last three years—Kevin Durant, Michael Beasley, Blake Griffin.   Durant and Beasley were (are) fantastic players—but this guy is something else.  

            I posted these thoughts in an article and I got some pushback from the audience, members of whom offered the thoughts that:

            1)  Griffin dominates because the Big 12 is weak (several people used the term “the Little 12.”

            2)  Beasley dominated the same league to a greater extent last year when the league was stronger.

            3)  We would have to see how Griffin played against Syracuse and Carolina.

            4)  If Griffin had come out a year earlier he wouldn’t have been among the top 5 players drafted.

            Basically, they were just talking out their ass, but then, so was I, so we were even.   I decided to spend a little time studying the issue.

           

            1)  Griffin dominates because the Big 12 is weak.

            The Big 12 lost a couple of well-publicized games early in the year, and the easy experts who know everything declared the Big 12 to be a weak league.   One would think that the NCAA tournament would have put a stop to that.   The Big 12 was 6-0 in the first round—the best record of any conference—and won a total of 10 tournament games, through four rounds the most of any conference except the Big East.

             I took the rankings from our site for all teams as of March 27, and figured the average rank of each conference.   This study, which takes into account every game played between conferences and would rank the conferences by how they played in inter-conference competition, shows that there was essentially no difference in the average quality of a Big 12 team compared to a Big East or ACC team:

1.  Athletic Coast Conference

111.47

2.  Pac-10 Conference

111.08

3.  Big East

110.9

4.  Big Twelve

110.58

5.  Big Ten

109.3

6.  SEC

107.3

 

            The Big 12 was weaker than the ACC or Big East (or Pac 10), but by a margin of less than one point per game.   The Big East, as people know, had the strongest top-level teams in the power conferences.    But, setting aside the SEC, let’s look at the weakest teams in these top five conferences:

DePaul

Big East

97.2

Indiana

Big 10

97.2

Colorado

Big 12

99.3

Oregon

Pac 10

100.7

Rutgers

Big East

100.9

U South Fla

Big East

102.5

Iowa State

Big 12

102.9

Oregon St

Pac 10

103.3

Texas Tech

Big 12

103.4

St. John’s

Big East

104.0

 

            The Big East had the strongest teams among these four conferences—and the weakest.   In these five conferences, the Big East had three of the six weakest teams, and four of the ten weakest.  

            The top-end Big East teams were very strong—but this strength was exaggerated, by the media, by the ability of those teams to feast on the four teams in their conference that were weaker than any team in the ACC.    And the Big 12 was not meaningfully weaker than the other premier conferences. 

           

            2)  Beasley dominated the same league to a greater extent last year when the league was stronger.

            Really, I thought?   I thought Griffin was doing pretty well.

            There is a formula I use to rank basketball players:

 

            Points scored

            Minus one for each field goal missed

            Minus one for each free throw missed

            Plus one for each rebound

            Minus .60 for each foul committed

            Plus assists

            Minus turnovers

            Plus steals

            Plus .40 times blocks

 

            I developed this formula myself, but I think that other people developed similar or identical formulas before I did.   The assumption is that teams scored about one point per possession; the rest of it pretty much follows from there.   When you get a rebound or a steal, that adds a possession, thus adds a point.   When you miss a shot or turn the ball over, that’s a negative point.   The formula does an inadequate job of measuring defense, but it does an excellent job of identifying the All-American and all-conference players, and I believe that the formula is, at a minimum, vastly better than just ranking players by points scored.

            I figure “points contributed” by each player by the formula above, and then convert that to points contributed per 40 minutes played.    In years past, before I went to work for the Red Sox, I would sometimes figure this for every player in the country.   I haven’t found time to do that, but I figured this formula for all players on fifteen of the better teams in the country:

            Boston College

            Carolina

            Clemson

            Duke

            Kansas

            Louisville

            Marquette

            Maryland

            Oklahoma

            Pittsburgh

            Syracuse

            U Conn

            Villanova

            Wake Forest

            West Virginia

           

            Among the players on these 15 teams, these were the highest-ranking players:

1.  Blake Griffin, Oklahoma

33.48

2.  DeJuan Blair, Pittsburgh

32.42

3.  Cole Aldrich, Kansas

27.99

4.  Tyler Hansbrough, Carolina

27.55

5.  Trevor Booker, Clemson

26.55

6.  Ty Lawson, Carolina

25.86

7.  Hasheem Thabeet, U Conn

23.99

8.  James Johnson, Wake Forest

22.73

9.  Terrence Williams, Louisville

21.45

10.  Danny Green, Carolina

20.95

 

            Pretty much a consensus list of the best players in the country; my top 9, among the 150 players I included with 300 minutes of playing time or more, include all of Sports Illustrated’s first team All-Americans (Lawson, Williams, Blair, Griffin and Tyler Hansbrough.)    Griffin was clearly the best. 

            I’m sure there are other players who would rank over 25, but I would be surprised if there is anybody else who would rank over 30.  But we don’t know. . ..I’ve done these studies before, and the general rule is:

            Average players rank 15-18 per 40 minutes,

            Good players rank 18-21 per 40 minutes,

            All-conference players ranks 21-25 per 40 minutes,

            All-Americans rank 25-30 per 40 minutes,

            Only serious player-of-the-year candidates are over 30.

            The real question, though, was how Griffin would compare to previous player-of-the year candidates—Beasley and Hansbrough from 2007-2008, Kevin Durant is 2006-2007.  Here’s that comparison:

1.  Michael Beasley, 2007-2008

34.45

2.  Blake Griffin, Oklahoma

33.48

3.  Kevin Durant, 2006-2007

28.76

4.  Tyler Hansbrough, 2007-2008

28.69

 

            So Griffin comes out a little below Beasley, although ahead of everyone else.

 

            3)  We would have to see how Griffin played against Syracuse and Carolina.

            If that was the test, wouldn’t Griffin already have passed it?   Beasley’s team won one game in the NCAA tournament.   Griffin’s team won three.  If that was the test, wouldn’t Griffin be the winner?

            This is a comparison of the top six Oklahoma and Carolina players, by my ranking system:

            Carolina

 

Tyler

Hansbrough

27.55

 

Ty

Lawson

25.86

 

Danny

Green

20.95

 

Wayne

Ellington

20.12

 

Ed

Davis

20.05

 

Deon

Thompson

17.71

             Oklahoma

 

Blake

Griffin

33.48

 

Taylor

Griffin

15.34

 

Willie

Warren

14.61

 

Austin

Johnson

13.20

 

Cade

Davis

10.72

 

Tony

Crocker

9.64

 

            Of course Carolina was probably going to beat Oklahoma; the rest of their team was vastly better.  People like to talk about Willie Warren as if he was ready for the NBA, but the reality is that he’s the sixth-best point guard in the Big 12. 

 

            I would argue. . .and this isn’t knowledge, it’s just opinion. . .but I would argue that in fact Michael Beasley’s supporting cast at Kansas State a year ago was significantly better than Griffin’s supporting cast at Oklahoma this year

 

Oklahoma

 

 

 

K-State

 

 

 

 

Blake

Griffin

33.48

 

Michael

Beasley

34.45

 

 

Taylor

Griffin

15.34

 

Bill

Walker

18.97

 

 

Willie

Warren

14.61

 

Ron

Anderson

15.67

 

 

Austin

Johnson

13.20

 

Jacob

Pullen

11.30

 

 

Cade

Davis

10.72

 

Blake

Young

8.79

 

 

Tony

Crocker

9.64

 

Clent

Stewart

8.01

 

                   

 

            I think Griffin’s numbers are probably held down because there really wasn’t anybody else on that team that you needed to concentrate on stopping.     If you put Griffin on Carolina his numbers might be lower, because Roy Williams wouldn’t run the whole offense around him, but they might also be higher because the other team would have to defend the whole team.   

           

            4)  If Griffin had come out a year earlier he wouldn’t have been among the top 5 players drafted.

            Of course not; he was injured.

 

            I took a liking to Griffin, in part, because he plays the game with a lot of dignity and class.   I also continue to believe that he’s the best college player in several years.   My study doesn’t prove this or disprove it; that’s still what I think.

            Beasley was (is) a fantastic young player, absolutely terrific.   I would put the difference between them this way, assuming they are both about the same height.  (I haven’t checked. . .I think Beasley is like an inch taller.)    I’m 6’4”, which I know is in the top 1% of American men.   I’m guessing that Griffin and Beasley are about 4 standard deviations above the norm in terms of height.   If we assume that there are 100,000,000 adult American males, that would mean that he would be one of the 4,000 tallest adult men in the United States, I would guess.

            Beasley is quite athletic.   I would guess that, among men of that height, he is in the top 10%  in terms of athletic ability, which would make him one of the top 400 in the US in terms of combined height and athleticism.   What really makes him stand out, though, is that his basketball skills—his fundamentals—are outstanding.  I would say his skills are in the top 5% of all basketball players of that size.   That puts him in the top 20 (5% of 400), which means Player of the Year, since most of the other 19 are already in (or out of) the NBA.

            Griffin is about the same height, but Griffin, I believe, may be the most athletic man of that size that I’ve ever seen.  I’m not sure I have ever seen a man that size who can jump that way.   He is very, very strong, extremely well co-ordinated, and comparable to Beasley in terms of speed and quickness.   I’ve been talking to people about who he might be compared to, and people have suggested Karl Malone and Len Bias, and I think you’d have to include LeBron James.  Elgin Baylor, maybe.   That’s about it.  

            In terms of his ability to do things on the floor, is he the equal of Beasley and Durant?   Ehn.. . .probably not.    He’s a good basketball player.  He beats people with power moves, and scores 60 or 70% of his points on dunks and flips off the backboard.   Beasley could beat people off the dribble, through traffic, on moves starting 20 feet from the basket.   That’s not Griffin’s game.  

But the expression, “Plays above the rim”.. .I am 100% certain I have never seen anybody play above the rim the way Griffin does.    Whether his game works in the NBA. . .I don’t know.  That’s not what I’m writing about.   You take all the college players from the last ten years—Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, whoever you want—I’ll take Griffin over any of them, for the college game.

 
 

COMMENTS (14 Comments, most recent shown first)

tbell
Count me among the idiots who were wrong about Griffin in the NBA. His athleticism is so tremendous that he can dominate even though he has no mid-range out outside game. The NBA is a tough league to dominate purely with athleticism. But Griffin is doing it.
1:19 PM Feb 3rd
 
bjames
I remember Wayman Tisdale very well. Wayman could score 28 points and grab 16 rebounds and you'd never know he was there; that sounds impossible but I swear it's true. He hit a lot of follow shots, short jumpers, got to the line much more than Griffin does. You'd be watching everybody else on the floor, look up at the clock with 8 minutes to go and he's got 22 points--every game. He was a great athlete, silky smooth, much closer to Beasley than Griffin, but more of a power game than Beasley.
5:21 PM Apr 5th
 
beta461
It'd be nice if he played some D
8:19 PM Apr 4th
 
jeagal
As a Michigan fan and alum, I must admit that Griffin is an outstanding talent. But if we want to talk about the last ten years, I think we have to talk about how any big man with this sort of skill or polish never went to college from 1995 to 2006.

LeBron would have been better, of course. Dwight Howard would have dominated the college game in the same way. Amare Stoudemire and Jermaine O'Neal would be in this conversation, though Amare wouldn't have rebounded like Griffin. Andrew Bynum would have been great. Tyson Chandler, Al Jefferson, Kwame Brown...who knows?

Griffin is a very good college player, and our perception of him is enhanced by the fact that we haven't seen many players like him since Garnett skipped college in '95. Perhaps the greatest effect of the one-and-done rule is that we'll get to see big men dominate in college again, before most of them ultimately disappoint us in the pros.


10:00 AM Apr 3rd
 
PHjort
This article is a great example of talking out of your ass intelligently.
8:34 PM Apr 2nd
 
SeanKates
I think what sets Blake apart isn't his athleticism, per se, but rather how athletic AND somewhat polished he is. Guys like Anthony Randolph and Sean Williams were probably as athletic, but so terribly raw that they simply can't produce to his level. Although, in fairness, both of thsoe guys are legitimately 6'10''+, while Griffin is probably closer to 6'8'' or 6'9'', a very big man in college, but pretty undersized for even a 4 in the NBA.
9:45 AM Apr 2nd
 
deberly
Bill, I suspect that you and I agree that our favorite sports are 1) baseball and 2) college basketball.

I am also a Carolina grad and fan and have watched dozens of each year for years ACC games (probably every Carolina game this year, plus 50 or so others). Griffin is the most athletic very-big man I have ever seen in college; my guess is that, other than Dwight Howard, he is the most athletic very-big man in the country.

Keep up the good work,

Dave
8:56 AM Apr 2nd
 
SeanKates
I <3 Tom Bell, although the paces are closer than he suggests, thanks very largely to Griffin's Turnovers (which should be factored in any pace discussion). I think the generally agreed rates for 2009 Pitt, 2009 Oklahoma and 2008 Kansas State (now that all of their seasons are officially over) are: 66.0 (possessions/game), 67.7, and 71.3.

I don't think that the complaints mentioned in this article are the most damning against Griffin, but I am fine with it being a matter of opinion because the "good" arguments against Griffin(like Strength of Schedule, age, quality of 2009 college BBall v. other years, quality of 2009 Big 12 v. other years (Big 12 was strongest conference last year, for instance) and skills v. performance) also don't really give us a clear answer.

There's probably a disconnect at some point between praising Griffin's super athletic but undeveloped offensive game and not caring what his prospects are in the professional game, as they are measurements, at least to me, of the same thing. And that same thing is not how good of a college player he is.

If I'm picking the best college player of the last decade, I would base it on who performed the best, and who was most likely to repeat that performance over a variety of leagues WITH THE SKILL SET AND APTITIUDES that they player had during that season. If I was going to get to see the realized talent, I would be probably asking a different question.


P.S. Is there some way we can stop people from comparing Griffin to Bird in any way other than saying they are good basketball players? Their athleticism, skill set, drive, defensive ability, team makeup, competitive environment, position and haircuts are completely different.
10:51 AM Apr 1st
 
tbell
Kind of surprised you don’t factor an individual player’s Points Contributed by his team’s pace of play. This might actually favor Griffin over Beasley, as this year Oklahoma played at a pace of 55.47 fields goals attempted per game (1997/36), whereas Beasley’s Kansas State team last year attempted 62.64 FG per game (2067/33).

However, there’s an ever stronger argument favoring Beasley: he’s only two months older than Griffin. A very wise man once amazed the world by showing that a baseball player’s total ability can be strongly indicated early in his career by his performance relative to his age. Beasley was at least as good at age 19 as Griffin was at age 20.

Tough to see Griffin doing much in the NBA. Almost all of his scoring seems to come within five feet of the basket. And that doesn’t work in the NBA unless you’re the biggest behemoth in the league, like Shaq.
9:49 AM Apr 1st
 
Kev
Griffin is a certified beast. He does everything well, including think. He doesn't just pass out of a double, he dishes. His lack of support brings to mind Larry Bird. There's only one Bird, but Griffin could approach him--with work. Griffin doesn't get enough respect, despite all the pub because it's the wrong pub. Sort of like Oscar in the pros when announcers say he averaged a triple double one year. Not true: It was 5 years--add'em up and divide by 5--triple digits all. It was in his second year that he hit triple digits on P, A, and R. And did you know that Tom Gola of LaSalle holds the D-1 4-yr. record for rebounding? No support there, either.
Kev
Griffin may not ever get close to Bird because Bird had that boot on the neck attitude, like Jordan. Besides talent, that's what made them great. No excuses, nothing--just play, and don't stop, not even once.
8:33 PM Mar 31st
 
shaneyfelt
Bill,
Excellent work. This time I thought I might write up in Word first and then post without trying to look like a fool in English.
I will take exception to the Big 12 Weak is the same as Big 12 Small. In general, the Big 12 was a smaller conference that most, but I do strongly agree, that the Big 12 was not a weaker league, The Tigers more than proved they belonged, regardless of size, KU who had size clearly played one of the hottest teams, OU had to play the favorite to win it all, Baylor is still alive and well in the NIT, while Texas was the only disappointment - but then again they are the only one listed to get beat by Nebraska at home and that is a black mark on any team that believes they are significant.
The size did give Blake an advantage in the Big 12 this season; however, although Blake was limited by Syracuse height, his team around him stepped up and they handled that challenge, but versus NC, he had a big game in my opinion and cemented his draft selection. NC choose to defend the rest of the team while letting the inside boys to limit the damage. In my opinion, the result of that game gave all indications that Blake was a Man among Boys.
The last time I said that statement in Basketball and meant it, was yet another OU player - Wyman Tisdale. He averaged 25.6 points and 10.0 rebounds over his three year career. He was voted All-American his freshman year (first freshman to achieve that honor and it was not repeated until 2007). He also played with no one really remarkable as history has proved out, but, like Blake, he played with his brother, William – a little known fact.
In my opinion Blake will outperform Wyman in the NBA, because Blake is more like Barkley and will never quit. But in College, they were equal. I have not seen Blake play in person (other than HD which is darn close to being right there), but I saw Wyman play all three years and he was a Man among Boys.

4:07 PM Mar 31st
 
shaneyfelt
Bill,
Excellent work. This time I thought I might write up in Word first and then post without trying to look like a fool in English.
I will take exception to the Big 12 Weak is the same as Big 12 Small. In general, the Big 12 was a smaller conference that most, but I do strongly agree, that the Big 12 was not a weaker league, The Tigers more than proved they belonged, regardless of size, KU who had size clearly played one of the hottest teams, OU had to play the favorite to win it all, Baylor is still alive and well in the NIT, while Texas was the only disappointment - but then again they are the only one listed to get beat by Nebraska at home and that is a black mark on any team that believes they are significant.
The size did give Blake an advantage in the Big 12 this season; however, although Blake was limited by Syracuse height, his team around him stepped up and they handled that challenge, but versus NC, he had a big game in my opinion and cemented his draft selection. NC choose to defend the rest of the team while letting the inside boys to limit the damage. In my opinion, the result of that game gave all indications that Blake was a Man among Boys.
The last time I said that statement in Basketball and meant it, was yet another OU player - Wyman Tisdale. He averaged 25.6 points and 10.0 rebounds over his three year career. He was voted All-American his freshman year (first freshman to achieve that honor and it was not repeated until 2007). He also played with no one really remarkable as history has proved out, but, like Blake, he played with his brother, William – a little known fact.
In my opinion Blake will outperform Wyman in the NBA, because Blake is more like Barkley and will never quit. But in College, they were equal. I have not seen Blake play in person (other than HD which is darn close to being right there), but I saw Wyman play all three years and he was a Man among Boys.

2:49 PM Mar 31st
 
elricsi
I figured Beasley would come out ahead, because he was an absolute monster from what I remembered about his numbers.

Durant was astonishing, but mostly because he was so young and skinny, and the mind boggles how he would do when he got bigger and more experienced.

I'm not sure you are accurately stating how good the BEAST was this year. 3 teams better than anyone in the 12, and a 4th (Villanova, my sister's school) in the final 4. Of course the bottom of those 16 teams were plenty bad.

Chris Paul was dominant across the board, but that is a different position, and how many years ago?

P.S. I'm sure around draft time that ESPN's Hollinger will have some articles up that touch on dominant college players (by stats) in the last 10 years.
7:04 PM Mar 30th
 
SeanKates
Not going to push back here, because I've already done more than my share. Just questions, mostly.

Do you have any idea how to compare this year's Big 12 to last year's Big 12, or this year's overall college class to last year's? I agree that your analysis under number 1 above makes sense (and is backed up by most other metrics), but I'm not sure that was the point of the pushback, generally. I think the point was that this year's Big 12 is weaker than either of the last two years' Big 12 and that this year's overall college game is also weaker, not that the Big 12 is weaker than the other conferences this year.

On the plus side for Blake, your formula for player's points created only partially accounts for possessions, and Beasley's K-State team played at a faster pace, meaning his seemingly superior point creation is probably close to a dead heat. Of course, Blair's team played at a slower pace than both, so he's also in that grouping. There's also a mess of noise about the teammates surrounding these guys, but.....

...the rest I'll let someone else deal with. I've spent more than enough time this week on this.
2:57 PM Mar 30th
 
 
©2024 Be Jolly, Inc. All Rights Reserved.|Powered by Sports Info Solutions|Terms & Conditions|Privacy Policy