Remember me

The Player Passages Model

July 6, 2009

            Occasionally you may set out to go to Minneapolis, find yourself diverted to Milwaukee, and then discover that M’waukee is quite a fine city in which to spend a weekend.   So it was with this study.   It did not go where it was intended to go, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.

            I began here with the observation, two or three weeks ago, that we can learn something from the effectiveness of closers.   We tend to assume that the players playing each position are making equal contributions to victory—that first basemen are better hitters than shortstops, that shortstops are better fielders than first basemen, but that overall, they balance.   But obviously, one cannot argue that set-up men or lefty specialists are as good, overall, as closers.   Thus, what we assume to be true about defensive positions is clearly not true about bullpen positions, and this caused me to question whether it was necessarily true about defensive positions, either.

            I thought perhaps I could work this out by some sort of card game, in which one must allocate resources to maximize offensive contribution while minimizing defensive exposure.   I haven’t been able to get that to work, but then I thought maybe I could work out the problem with a statistical model, and so I constructed a model on a spreadsheet.

            The model is this.   Suppose that we start out with a very large number of “players” playing little league baseball, each of whom has a known offensive and defensive ability.   As these players move up to higher levels the numbers of them are constantly winnowed down, with the weakest players being systematically eliminated, and the others finding positions.   At the end of that sorting-out process, would the major league players playing shortstop be of the same quality as the players playing first base, of better quality, or of lesser quality?

            That effort failed because I was unable to find a way to simulate, in a spreadsheet, the process of sorting out defensive positions on a team.    Nonetheless, the modeling process was interesting, and I think it may provide some insight into other issues.   Let me first describe the model that I created, and then we’ll discuss the other issues.

            I want to warn you that this is not gripping stuff.   I am trying to create a model to think through a set of problems; this is work that has to be done.   It’s not exciting, and there will be no conclusions forthcoming for some time.  In my current model there are 9 levels of competition:

 

            Little League 1 (Little League Baseball for players aged up to 12)

            Little League 2 (Little League Baseball for players aged 13-15)

            High School Baseball

            Legion Baseball

            College Baseball

            A Ball

            AA Ball

            AAA Ball

            Major League Baseball

 

            In my part of the country there are American Legion teams or Ban Johnson teams that are kind of “super high school” teams, good high school players and players who have been out of high school a year or two who form summer teams and play 60 to 80 games during the summer.  These teams play a huge role in who gets the opportunity to play college baseball.

            In my model we start with 61,440 beginning little league players on 7,680 little league teams.   At each level, half of these players are forced out of the system, and the other half advance.

 

            7680 Beginning little league teams, 61,440 beginning little league players, which become

            3840 Older little league teams, 30,720 older little league players, which become

            1920 High School teams, 15,360 high school players, which become

            960 legion teams, 7680 legion players, which become

            480 College teams, 3840 College players, which become

            240 A Ball teams, 1920 A Ball players, which become

            120 AA teams, 960 AA players, which become

            60 AAA teams, 480 AAA players, which become

            30 major league teams, 240 major league players

 

            When I first attempted the model, I assigned each player a “skill level” based on two random numbers, one representing his offensive skill, and one representing his defensive skill.   I then augmented these basic skill levels by “development levels” as the players moved upward.

            There was an obvious problem with my first effort, however, which was that many of the most talented players were forced out of the system even before they reached the level of high school baseball.    That doesn’t seem realistic.

            I then repaired the system so that:

 

            Each player was assigned a “Talent Base” which was:

                        A random number multiplied by five, representing his offensive ability,

                                    plus,

                        A random number multiplied by five, representing his defensive ability.

 

            At each level of competition the player has a certain amount of growth as an offensive player—which is a random number, 0 to 1—and a certain amount of growth as a defensive player, which is also a random number, 0 to 1.

            Let us take for example the case of player 35683, who we will call “Jack Raymond”.   Jack Raymond was initially assigned a talent base of 4.43—

            The random number .9949, representing his offensive talent, and the random number .7782, representing his defensive talent.    .9949 times five is 4.9746, and .7782 times five is 3.8911.   Adding those together, 8.8657, divided by two—a basic talent level of 4.43.

            Among the 61,440 “players’ at the beginning of the model, Jack Raymond ranked 1,610th in native talent.   He was not one of the 100 most talented players in the group; he was not close to that.   He was, however, in the top 3% of all players in terms of raw talent.

            Jack Raymond was assigned to beginner team 4,461.   As a beginning little leaguer, Jack Raymond made average progress as a hitter (.5462), but very little progress as a fielder (.2044).  His skill level exiting the younger little leagues, then is 4.93:

 

            4.97 + .55 = 5.52 as a hitter

            3.89 + .20 = 4.10 as a fielder (rounding discrepancy)

 

            We combine these by the formula (10 * offense + 7 * defense) / 17, which yields 4.93.

            One of the things I built into the system was an assumption that, as players move up, offense becomes more important.   I think there is no doubt that this is true.   At the lowest levels of competition, fielding is terribly important, because outs are so hard to come by.  As you move up it becomes ever more important that you hit.

            Anyway, Jack Raymond did not make great progress as a young little leaguer, but given his native talent, he had no difficulty in moving on to the next level of competition.  When beginning team 4461 was combined with beginner team 4462 there were 16 players competing for 8 spots on the “older little league” (LL-2) team 2231.   Jack Raymond was the second-best player in the group, behind player 35691, whom we will call Donny Donovan.  Raymond thus easily made the team.  Stated another way, Raymond was 64% better than an average beginning little leaguer, who had an average score of 3.005, or plus 1.92 (4.93 minus 3.01). 

            As a older little league player Raymond made good progress as a hitter (.6633) and excellent progress as a fielder (.9442).    This brought Raymond’s overall value as an older little leaguer to

 

            6.18 as a hitter (5.52 + .66), and

            5.04 as a fielder (4.10 + .94).

 

            These we combine in a 12-7 ratio (12 parts as a hitter, 7 as a fielder).  This makes 5.76.  Thus, at the higher little league level, Jack Raymond was 33% better than an average player (the average being 4.34), or +1.32. 

            In the next stage of our model, little league teams 2231 and 2232 were combined into high school team 1116.   Jack Raymond was again the second-best player among the 16 position players trying out for the high school team, once more behind Donny Donovan.   He thus made his high school team.

            As a high school player Donovan made limited progress as a hitter (.4191) and just average progress as a fielder (.5057), giving him a new skill level of 6.25:

 

            6.60 as a hitter (6.18 + .42), and

            5.55 as a fielder (5.04 + .51). 

 

            These are combined in a ratio of 14-7 (or 2-1), 14 parts hitter, 7 parts fielder.  It works out to 6.25.

            The average high school player has a skill level of 5.39, so Donovan is still 16% better than average, or +0.86.   Among the 15,360 high school players in the country, Donovan ranks 956th.    He is in the top 7%.

            High school teams 1115 and 1116 are combined into legion team 558.   Again, there are 16 players competing for 8 positions.    Jack Raymond is now the third-best player on the team, behind Donny Donovan at 6.29 and player 35702, who we will call Big Randy Rogers, who ranks at 6.37.  

            As a legion player, however, something kicks in for Jack Raymond.  He comes up with big numbers both for his progress as a hitter (.8138) and for his progress as a fielder (.9868).   These progress numbers put Raymond far ahead of both Donny Donovan and Big Randy Rogers at the end of his legion ball career.   His new value computes to 7.15:

 

            7.42 as a hitter (6.60 + .81), and

            6.54 as a fielder (5.55 + .99)

 

            And these are combined in a 16-7 ratio, 16 parts hitter.    The average legion player is at 6.31, so Raymond is 13% better than the average legion player, or +.85.    Raymond is now in 299th place among 7,680 players who are still in the system.  

            Legion teams 557 and 558, we combine into college team 279.    When these two teams are combined, Jack Raymond is by far the best player on his college team, at the start of his college career.

            Raymond makes little progress as a college hitter (.2765), but outstanding progress as a college fielder (.9242).   As long as the average is greater than .50, he’s still doing good, and the average is greater than .50.   This gives him new skill levels of:

 

            7.69 as a hitter (7.41 + .28), and

            7.46 as a fielder (6.54 + .92). 

 

            Raymond’s fielding, over the years, has nearly caught up with his hitting.   We combine these two figures in an 18-7 ratio, and this gives Jack Raymond a new skill level of 7.63.   The average skill level for a college player is 7.16, so Raymond is 7% better than an average college player, and is +.47.

            In our model—obviously this is imprecise—half the college players are able to move on to pro baseball, starting at the A level.   In real life baseball is more complicated.   High school players sometimes go directly into the pros, sometimes go to junior colleges and then to the pros, and sometimes come out of college and start in the Florida State League—and the progression is not linear.   Instead, one player from Texas A & M is put on an A ball team with one player from Maryland, one player from USC, one player from Florida International, one player from Boston College, and four guys from Venezuela, while other players from Texas A & M, Maryland, USC and Florida International move on to different organizations.  It would be extremely difficult to model all of this complexity in a spreadsheet.   In our model, half of college players move on to A ball, and half drop by the way.    College teams 279 and 280 are combined into A ball team 140.

            Arriving in A ball, Jack Raymond is the third-best player on the team, behind two players we have not discussed before and will not bother to assign names.  

            Representing his progress as a hitter at A ball, Raymond comes up with a big, big number (.9829) but a poor number as a fielder (.2057).   But again, the average of the two “improvement numbers” is still greater than .500, so he’s still doing OK.     If he doesn’t continue to make progress he’s going to fail to move up, but as long as his improvement numbers are better than .500 on average, he’s going to be OK.    He now comes out at 8.41—

 

            8.68 as a hitter (7.69 +.98), and

            7.66 as a fielder (7.46 + .21).

 

            Combined in a 20-7 ratio, making 8.41.    The average A ball player is at 7.98, so Raymond is +.43, or 5% above average.

            A ball teams 139 and 140 are combined into AA team 70.   When these two teams are combined, Jack Raymond is the fourth-best player on his AA team.    Now he’s got to make some progress.   If he comes up with bad progress numbers here, he’s not going to make Triple-A.

            But he doesn’t.   He doesn’t come up with bad progress numbers.   He comes up with .7861 for offense, and .7515 for fielding.    This makes his new value 9.21:

 

            9.46 as a hitter (8.68 + .79), and

            8.41 as a fielder (7.66 + .75).

 

            Combined in a 22-7 ratio.    The average player at Double-A is at 8.77, so Raymond is still 5% above average, and is now +.44.  

            Double-A teams 69 and 70 are combined into Triple-A team 35.    There are 16 players competing to move up.   Jack Raymond is now the third-best of those 16 players.  

            Of course, in real life there are as many Triple-A as Double-A teams.    Still, only about half of Double-A player DO move up to Triple-A, and the reason for this is the time frame.   Players spend a long time in Triple-A.   You spend one year in Double-A if you’re lucky, two years if you need them, three years if you’re struggling but people still believe in you.   But you can hang out in Triple-A for years.     Vacancies don’t open up at AAA as rapidly as younger kids come up from A ball, so it does remain a funnel.   A lot of careers dead end at Double A.  

            Anyway, Jack Raymond has now made it to Triple-A.   At Triple-A, he must continue to make progress.   Again, he makes little progress as a Triple-A hitter (.2724), but makes wonderful progress as a fielder (.9972).    Again, the average of the two is over .500.   This is the sixth consecutive level at which Raymond has made above-average progress, thus keeping him in the top half of players at his level, even though the quality of competition keeps improving.  The last level at which he did not make above-average progress was high school.   Raymond’s’ performance level is now 9.66:

 

            9.73 as a hitter (9.46 + .27), and

            9.41 as a fielder (8.41 + 1.00). 

 

            Combined in a 24-7 ratio.   The average AAA player is 9.56.   Raymond, at 9.66, is 1% above average.

            Triple-A teams 35 and 36 are combined in our model into major league team 18.  There are 16 candidates for major league positions.   There are 8 jobs.   Jack Raymond is the 7th best player.   He makes the majors.   Barely, but he makes.

            In the majors, also, Jack Raymond has “progress” numbers, and once more he comes up with very good ones--.6519 for his progress as a hitter, .7371 for his progress as a fielder.   It pushes him to 10.34:

 

            10.39 as a hitter (9.73 + .65), and

            10.15 as a fielder (9.41 + .74).

 

            Combined in a 26-7 ratio, that makes 10.336.   Raymond winds up as the most-average major league player, among the 240; the major league average is 10.334.   That’s how I decided to chose him to illustrate how the system works. 

            Let’s quickly summarize the progress of a couple of other players.   Carl Thornton:

 

Base Talent—Offense

.979 X 5 =

4.895

Base Talent—Fielding

.621 X 5 =

3.105

Total

 

8.000

Natural Talent Level

 

4.000

LL-1 Hitting Progress

 

0.070

LL-1 Fielding Progress

 

.808

LL-1 Hitting Level

 

4.965

LL-1 Fielding Level

 

3.914

Overall Level exiting LL-1 (10-7)

 

4.532

Average

 

3.005

 

 

 

Rank on Trying out for LL-2

2 of 16 (makes team)

LL-2 Hitting Progress

 

.822

LL-2 Fielding Progress

 

.597

LL-2 Hitting Level

 

5.787

LL-2 Fielding Level

 

4.511

Overall Level exiting LL-2 (12-7)

 

5.317

Average

 

4.345

 

Rank on Trying out for High School

2 of 16 (makes team)

High School Hitting Progress

 

0.560

High School Fielding Progress

 

0.475

High School Hitting Level

 

6.347

High School Fielding Level

 

4.985

Overall level exiting High School (14-7)

 

5.894

Average

 

5.394

 

 

 

Rank on Trying out for Legion Team

4 of 16 (makes team)

Legion Hitting Progress

 

0.626

Legion Fielding Progress

 

0.657

Legion Hitting Level

 

6.974

Legion Fielding Level

 

5.642

Overall Level exiting legion ball (16-7)

 

6.568

Average

 

6.311

 

 

 

Rank on entering college

5 of 16 (makes team)

College Hitting Progress

 

0.471

College Fielding Progress

 

0.368

College Hitting Level

 

7.445

College Fielding Level

 

6.01

Overall Level exiting college (18-7)

 

7.043

Average

 

7.158

 

 

 

Rank on entering A Ball

9 of 16

 

 

Fails to make team

 

            Carl Thornton makes inadequate progress as a college player, and his career ends in college.  He never enters pro ball.

            Let’s call this player Bob Wagner:

 

Base Talent—Offense

.962 X 5 =

4.812

Base Talent—Fielding

.537 X 5 =

2.688

Total

 

7.500

Natural Talent Level

 

3.750

LL-1 Hitting Progress

 

0.120

LL-1 Fielding Progress

 

0.628

LL-1 Hitting Level

 

4.932

LL-1 Fielding Level

 

3.315

Overall Level exiting LL-1 (10-7)

 

4.266

Average

 

3.005

 

 

 

Rank on Trying out for LL-2

3 of 16 (makes team)

LL-2 Hitting Progress

 

0.270

LL-2 Fielding Progress

 

0.131

LL-2 Hitting Level

 

5.203

LL-2 Fielding Level

 

3.446

Overall Level exiting LL-2 (12-7)

 

4.555

Average

 

4.345

 

 

 

Rank on Trying out for High School

7 of 16 (makes team)

High School Hitting Progress

 

0.918

High School Fielding Progress

 

0.407

High School Hitting Level

 

6.121

High School Fielding Level

 

3.853

Overall level exiting High School (14-7)

 

5.365

Average

 

5.394

 

 

 

Rank on Trying out for Legion Team

6 of 16 (makes team)

Legion Hitting Progress

 

0.961

Legion Fielding Progress

 

0.946

Legion Hitting Level

 

7.082

Legion Fielding Level

 

4.799

Overall Level exiting legion ball (16-7)

 

6.387

Average

 

6.311

 

 

 

Rank on entering college

4 of 16 (makes team)

College Hitting Progress

 

0.288

College Fielding Progress

 

0.138

College Hitting Level

 

7.370

College Fielding Level

 

4.937

Overall Level exiting college (18-7)

 

6.688

Average

 

7.158

 

 

 

Rank on entering A Ball

11 of 16

 

 

Fails to make team

 

            Bob Wagner, again, fails to make progress at college, and does not enter pro ball.  The average skill level, in my system, is as follows:

 

Majors

10.34

AAA

9.56

AA

8.77

A Ball

7.98

College

7.16

Legion

6.31

High School

5.39

Older Little Leagues

4.34

Beginner Leagues

3.01

 

            Some of this improvement comes from players getting better, and some of it comes from the weaker players being systematically eliminated.   Let’s compare the “league levels” above to the 240 top players at each level:

 

 

Average

240

Majors

10.34

10.34

AAA

9.56

9.85

AA

8.77

9.25

A Ball

7.98

8.61

College

7.16

7.99

Legion

6.31

7.39

High School

5.39

6.75

Older Little Leagues

4.34

6.13

Beginner Leagues

3.01

5.51

 

            Let’s add to that the average “raw talent level” of the players left in the system at each level.  (The beginning performance level is essentially one-half the average talent level):

 

 

Average

240

Avg Talent

Majors

10.34

10.34

4.31

AAA

9.56

9.85

4.30

AA

8.77

9.25

4.28

A Ball

7.98

8.61

4.22

College

7.16

7.99

4.12

Legion

6.31

7.39

3.97

High School

5.39

6.75

3.70

Older Little Leagues

4.34

6.13

3.27

Beginner Leagues

3.01

5.51

2.50

 

            The lower-level eliminations are based almost entirely on talent.   Once you get to the professional baseball, everybody has talent, and the eliminations are based almost entirely on the failure to make progress.  

            I marked in this model the 100 most talented players in the system. ..the most gifted.    Of the 100 most gifted players in the model—

 

            All 100 were able to play in the older Little Leagues

            All 100 made their High School teams

            99 were able to make it into Legion ball

            94 played college ball

            73 entered pro baseball

            51 made it to Double-A

            30 made it to Triple-A

            11 made it to the majors

 

            And, of the 240 players who made it to the majors, all were in the top one-third in terms of basic talent.    A player whose native talent was at the 40th percentile could, in theory, make it to the majors by making strong progress at every level, but it did not happen within the model.

 

And All This Means?

 

            Well, here’s one thing it means.    In the recent book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell argues that we artificially limit the supply of talent in many areas by eliminating young people from the training regimen before they have the opportunity to improve.

My model suggests that this argument is probably true.   Let’s take the 240 players who wind up with the major league jobs at the end of the day, and look at the “average progress numbers” at each level:

 

Beginner League Hitting

.735

Beginner League Fielding

.558

 

 

Little League Hitting

.704

Little League Fielding

.557

 

 

High School Hitting

.705

High School Fielding

.564

 

 

Legion Hitting

.698

Legion Fielding

.579

 

 

College Hitting

.714

College Fielding

.589

 

 

A Ball Hitting

.682

A Ball Fielding

.545

 

 

AA Hitting

.684

AA Fielding

.549

 

 

AAA Hitting

.660

AAA Fielding

.552

 

The progress numbers are higher for hitting than for fielding because hitting is more important toward staying in the game than is fielding.   But the “progress numbers” are higher at the lower levels than they are at the higher levels.   Why is that?

In order to reach the major leagues, you need to start with a high talent base and also make steady progress.    The average player has a progress number, in any season, of .500.   The players who make the majors are those who consistently exceed that number.

But suppose that one player has progress numbers, beginning at the lowest levels, that go .400, .500, .600, .700, .800, .900, average .650, while another player has progress numbers that go .900, .800, .700, .600, .500, .400.

The player who has low progress rates at the lowest levels is likely to be eliminated before the “good numbers” ever come up.   The player who is supposed to go 400-500-600-700-800-900. …in reality, he’s going to go 400-500, oops, you didn’t make the team; your career is over.    The reason that the progress numbers are highest at the lowest levels for those players who make the majors is that the players who would make progress later, rather than earlier, are eliminated from the system before their big steps forward occur.   Which was part of Gladwell’s thesis. 

This relates to expansion.    Many people believe—in my view mistakenly—that expansion permanently weakens the level of talent in the major leagues.   There were 16 teams in 1960; now there are 30.   Assuming that there are 25 players on each team, that means there were 400 major league players in 1960; now there are 750.  Obviously players 401 to 750 are not as good as players 1 to 400, so obviously, the quality of play today cannot be as good as it was in 1960.

The quality of player—and the quality of talent—in the major leagues today is far, far better than it was in 1960.    When baseball expands, this does weaken the quality of play in the majors.  The quality of play in 1962 was less than it was in 1960.   However, this effect washes out very quickly.   Most of it disappears within 3 or 4 years.   Within six years after expansion, the quality of play is as good as it has ever been—or better.  

I am certain this is true, and there are several ways to demonstrate that it is true, but those also are long articles, and we’ll get to those another time.   Among the fallacies inherent in the opposite belief are:

1)  It ignores the growth in population.   The population of the United States in 1960 was 179 million.  Now it is 307 million.   The ratio of players to population, in reality, is almost the same.

2)  It ignores the ever-increasing outreach to other countries.    In 1960 there were only about 30 major league players born outside the United States.   Now there are hundreds.

3)  It ignores changes in the rate at which persons are developed into baseball players.    The population of India, after all, is 140 times the population of the Dominican Republic—but the 100 best baseball players in India would not be comparable to the 100 best baseball players in the Dominican Republic. 

4)  It ignores the improvements that are always occurring in the game, which constantly force players to play at an ever-higher level.

5)  (And this is Gladwell’s thesis, I think). . .it greatly overstates the role of “talent” in making a baseball player.

Gladwell’s thesis is that, in the creation of “outliers” such as geniuses, inventors and superior athletes, there are four parts:

 

1)  Opportunity,

2)  Training,

3)  Development time, and

4)  Talent.

 

Neither Gladwell nor myself is arguing that talent is not anything.  In my model (above), after all, all of the 240 players who wound up as major league players were in the top one-third in talent, and almost all of them in the top one-tenth.  However, talent is the least important of the four elements.   The things that really identify the outliers are opportunity and development time.   Lots of people have talent.   Few of them get the opportunity or put in the time to develop that talent to the highest level.

This is what my model shows:  that, while talent is certainly very important, there are many, many more players who have the talent to play major league baseball than will ever get the chance to do so.   Therefore, the amount of “raw talent” available is essentially irrelevant to the quality of play.    The amount of raw talent is not a variable that has anything to do with how many players develop their skills to a major league level.   If it was, India would have to have a better baseball team than the Dominican Republic, since there is 140 times as much talent there.    And therefore, if major league baseball expanded to 40 teams, 50, 60, or 200 or 500, the quality of talent in the major leagues would not change AT ALL, so long as the expansion occurred in an orderly way, and the system had a few years to recover between each step.

 

Another note about the model.  .People tend to assume (and often assert) that everybody who plays major league baseball was by far the best player on his high school team or his college team.   This is not true.   Many players are in the major leagues today who were NOT the best players on their high school or college team—as you can confirm if you talk to players.   You’ll find a number of them who were not the best players there.

In my model, 60% of the players were the best players on their High School team at the time those teams were formed, and 72% of them were the best players on their high school teams at the end of their high school experience.    Those numbers are certainly lower than in real life.  In my model there were 15,360 high school players, 240 major league players, a 64-1 compression ratio.   The real compression ratio is probably closer to a thousand to one.

 

If we were able to make the model large enough and complex enough to represent reality on a higher level, it might be useful in answering questions like “where is talent being missed?”   It is my belief, for example, that talent is being overlooked at the smaller-college level.   I think there are a significant number of players coming out of high school who, for reason or another, don’t make it into the big-time college programs, but who catch up during their college years to the level of those who do.   If the model were large enough and sophisticated enough, it might be useful in studying those kinds of issues. 

 
 

COMMENTS (9 Comments, most recent shown first)

tjmaccarone
I didn't know Dave Parker grew up elsewhere, but I suspected that one or two of the guys I mentioned would turn out to be like that. I'm pretty Phil Plantier, who's actually the New Hampshire-born home run leader, grew up elsewhere (California, I think). For that matter, I don't know if it's still true, but until very recently, Wally Szczerbiak was the all-time leading scorer for an NBA player born in Europe.

I know there are some great Minnesotan players. I wonder if the "townball" culture promotes that a bit, so that kids there play more than they would, and against higher level competition, than they would in other cold weather states.

Anyways, you're right that I'm just giving anecdotal evidence from one part of the US, and doing a mediocre job of filtering for the guys who grew up different places from where they were born, but I think we know for sure that the DR produces an enormous number of players per capita, and that California and Florida are way ahead of Alaska and Maine, just to give some examples, and that only some small part of this can be due to top athletes playing hockey in Maine and Alaska. I think the fraction of the top players from New England who end up being pitchers rather than everyday players must mean something, too.
11:44 AM Jul 9th
 
evanecurb
Tom:

Like a lot of people, Dave Parker did not grow up in the same state where he was born. He attended high school in Cincinnati.

Your theory is an interesting one and would make for an interesting study. I would suggest that, if you wanted to do a study on players from cold weather states, you would want to include Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming and compare those states to similar populations of moderate weather and warm weather states. This would give you a much larger population to work with. I recall that Dave McNally and Roger Maris are from the Dakotas, and Kent Hrbeck, Dave Winfield, and Paul Molitor are from Minnesota.
9:22 AM Jul 9th
 
tjmaccarone
A few more thoughts: I have an impression, not based on any numbers, but just a few players I have in mind, that cold climate players peak later than warm climate players. There are also certainly a lot fewer of them, per capita. There has been literally only a single position player born in Maine since WW II, a backup catcher named Ron Tingley. The situation is similar for New Hampshire and Vermont - there are a few bit players from those states, plus a couple of good catchers born in Vermont - Carlton Fisk and Birdie Tebbets. Red Rolfe is the only other everyday player from northern New England to make an all-star team. I don't think the lack of pitchers from the cold climates is as severe, maybe because the short season limits the chance of injury at a young age, or maybe just because development as a pitcher happens differently. The three northern New England states combined have a population slightly larger than that of Kansas or Arkansas or Mississippi or Iowa.

Kansas has had no post-war player as good as Fisk, but probably half a dozen about as good as Tebbetts. Arkansas has Brooks Robinson, who's competitive with Fisk, plus several guys definitely better than Tebbetts, and a bunch of other guys who made an all-star team or two, plus some good pitchers. No Hall of Famer has even been born in Mississippi, but there are a few of guys who are pretty close to that level (including Dave Parker who'd probably have made it if not for the drug issues) and 13 position players who've made all-star teams.


3:27 PM Jul 8th
 
evanecurb
Bill:

You speak the truth when you speak of talented players being eliminated from pro ball before they have a chance to prove themselves. One of my friends in high school was the batboy for the local minor league team and got to know the players each year for about five years. His observation was that some players, usually the high draft picks, were "protected" by the organization, i.e. given every chance to succeed, while the low draft picks were left to fend for themselves, and the organization seemed to almost be rooting for them to fail. Same is true in colleges and high schools. Coaches have their favorites, and those favorites get more opportunities to succeed. One anecdote: In 1975, our high school team's star player was drafted by the Twins and spent the summer in Elizabethton, TN (Appalachian Rookie League). I went to visit him twice that summer and got to know a little bit about some of his teammates. The shortstop, Rick Scofield, was a first round pick and a Billy Beane type: tall, strong arm, great all around athlete, offered a full ride to play football at Michigan. He never hit in the minors but they kept promoting him, and he eventually played in Minnesota one year (He didn't hit there, either). The third baseman was an undrafted player named Levi Raines. He was a good hitter, fast runner, upbeat attitude, and a Pete Rose type - hustled on every play. He was the team's most popular player. he stumbled slightly in A ball (though still hit better than Scofield) and was released. I think Levi Raines was one of those thousands of players who could have made the majors and been successful except for the biases within the system. As for my high school teammate, he was great in A ball, slipped a notch in double A and never got to play much in Triple A. I don't think he got a fair shake either, and I am sure that Levi Raines didn't.

By the way, you may have guessed by now that Levi's younger brother Tim was a pretty good major league player.
12:46 AM Jul 8th
 
papahans5
- Fascinating piece, Bill. I especially like the way you tease out the implications (albeit briefly) at the end. And I look forward to your fleshing out the argument for why expansion has not diluted the talent pool.
- I am familiar w/ Malcolm Gladwell's work, although I have not yet read Outliers. One other factor worth mentioning in any rubric about how players reach the majors is psychological - the matter of will. I don't want to get touchy-feely, and I have no idea how to quantify it, but there is just no question there are talented players who don't make the majors because they can't stomach or handle the grind of having to compete and improve at every level. We are used to human interest stories that play up unquantifiable factors like the human heart. (And we know there are players like Pete Rose and David Eckstein who maximize their talent.) But there must be legions of players with plenty of talent who flame out or crap out because they can't handle a challenge or hurdle or an injury or the lack of confidence that comes from ascending to the next level and discovering that everyone is as good as you. My impression is that MLB players are a cocky, swaggering bunch - but I am sure that is not uniform either. (Plenty of players who still sweat the small stuff - even having made the Show.) And we do lionize players like Wade Boggs, and Tony Gwynn, and Roger Clemens (I'll leave the steroids out of it) who are seen to hone and improve their craft even after achieving stardom. Not everyone is cut out like that. They are outliers, too. (And the story of Clemens challenging Curt Schilling to get more out of his talent is probably instructive here.) The recent little film Sugar is just a film, but it is a wonderful - beautiful even - example of the phenomenon I am talking about. Psychological will is a huge factor separating achievers, too. (And I am sure "support networks" - which are a part of Gladwell's book - play a contributing role.)
- Thanks, again.
2:50 PM Jul 7th
 
tjmaccarone
I'm not so sure about finding a lot of talent from the small colleges. There have been some guys - John Cerutti comes to mind - who were successful in the majors after pitching in Division III. However, the development opportunities against the weaker competition in DIII are a lot worse, on top of the fact that there are fewer kids with a lot of ability there. You're probably right that if there's a place where talent is being missed, that's one of the places, the other being in the countries where baseball is just starting to catch on.

For what it's worth, and probably pure trivia, Florida A&M has produced 4 major leaguers. The worst of them - by far - is Vince Coleman. The others are Hal McRae, Marquis Grisson and Andre Dawson.
2:35 PM Jul 7th
 
barronmo
This goes back to your assertion years ago in the Abstract that talent was everywhere and therefore it is a mistake to hold on to veterans too long.

One of the interesting parts of this process is the talented player with a major flaw. The flaw keeps his performance below his overall abilities. Once the flaw is corrected, the performance takes a big jump. The classic flaw is a kid who needs glasses but plays for several years without them. Another example would be a hitter who "steps in the bucket" and therefore can't hit an outside pitch. If an organization developed a sure fix for a certain problem, that might open a pool of cheap talent to them.
11:21 AM Jul 7th
 
Trailbzr
About the defensive position value question in the intro... BillJ once did a study called "The DH increases strategy" in which he showed that even though NL teams had more Sac Hits than AL teams, there was more standard deviation among the Sac Hit totals of AL teams than NL. I think that's where the position value question should go. If every team has to play exactly one second baseman and one left fielder, it is an unanswerable and irrelevant question whether 2Bmen are better players overall than LFers. Whereas knowing whether differences among 2Bmen are bigger or smaller than among LFers would be vital to understand about team construction.

About the comparison to bullpen roles, I think they're more similar to batting order positions than defensive ones. A manager might have eight guys he has to play, but he can still put the better hitters first and the worse ones last. Similarly, a modern bullpen might have six guys who all pitch 75 innings; but one does it in Save situations and another in 9-2 games.
5:39 AM Jul 7th
 
rgregory1956
Hey Bill, In reference to your paragraph that says "There was an obvious problem...which was that many of the most talented players were forced out of the system...That doesn't seem realistic." I, keeping my modesty to a minimum, was on an All-Star team in the late '60s that played after our seventh grade. I'm not saying we were MLB-talented, just that we were the best 7th graders in our area. Four of us didn't play high school baseball because, one got hit in the face by a pitch that summer and never lost his fear, one stopped playing because he like football and tennis more than baseball, one quit because he had to choose between his pony-tail or a buzz-cut (coaches couldn't STAND non-compliance back then) and the fourth was the youngest of a family of boys who were athletic, and suffered from the "Alou Effect" - Felipe was better than Matty, Matty was better than Jesus. My teammate was the Jesus of his family, and just not as talented (or motivated) as his brothers. My point is that many talented kids don't pursue baseball for a myriad of reasons. So your results might not have been unrealistic.
4:23 PM Jul 6th
 
 
©2024 Be Jolly, Inc. All Rights Reserved.|Powered by Sports Info Solutions|Terms & Conditions|Privacy Policy