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HOF Movers and Shakers

February 2, 2010
            Dave Fleming’s most recent article is an interesting look at Joe Mauer and the Twins’ endeavors to resign him. I agree with Dave that the Twins will (and potentially already have committed to) sign him to a long-term contract, one that almost guarantees he will finish the useful part of his career with them. However, during the discussion of this expected event, Dave posits that, “As a rule, teams lucky enough to have a Great Player don’t let those players go.
 
            Dave came to this conclusion through a simple thought experiment: choosing ten great players and then examining if they were ever let go from their teams. The ten players Dave came up with were Ruth, Gehrig, Ted Williams, Koufax, Aaron, Clemente, Mays, Hornsby, Yastrzemski, and Schmidt, with six lifers, two (Mays and Aaron) making late-life switches, and only two playing peak or near-peak years with different organizations. From this, Dave extrapolated a loose rule.
 
            I, of course, objected in the comments, and most likely came out sounding like a buttbag.[1] Still, I chafed at the manner of selecting those players, as there were clear differences between most of their careers and the modern day playing environment, including free agency, multi-million dollar endorsement deals and the designated hitter. The first gives players an out they never had before, the second gives them reasons to seek larger markets than where they might have previously played, and the last gives players an extended life in one of the leagues. Obviously, the first is most important, and there exist many other differences, to boot.
 
            So I decided to take a (somewhat) scientific look at the claim in the era of free agency. I gathered the largest list of what people might consider great players whose careers at least straddled the 1975 benchmark. To create the list, I took every player inducted to the Hall of Fame from the Palmer/Morgan class forward (each played 7-8 years in the free agency period), and then added any player not yet eligible for the Hall who stands clearly above the threshold for HOF induction (using some combination of Win Shares, Hall of Fame Monitor, common sense, etc.). I think the list is over-inclusive when we’re talking about really great players like Dave seems to be, but may be under-inclusive in that it leaves out a small group of players who are probably equal to the bottom 25% of the list.[2] You can discuss this in the comments, but I’m pretty sure it won’t greatly change the findings.
 
            The list is made up of 33 Hall of Famers, 27 players who are as talented/accomplished as Hall of Famers,[3] and considers 6-7 current players who have a decent shot at joining the second group. So, 60 established players, plus 6-7 younger players. The results surprised me, in a few ways. First, the results:
 
33 Hall of Famers
 
Morgan – 5 teams on 6 occasions, moved in prime (age 27)
Palmer – one team
G. Perry – 9 (?) teams, end of career a mess
Jenkins – 4 teams on 6 occasions
Carew – 2 teams
Seaver – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Fingers – 3 teams
Jackson – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Carlton – 6 teams, but 4 in the last two years of career
Schmidt – 1 team
Niekro – 5 teams on 6 occasions
Sutton – 5 teams on 6 occasions
Yount – 1 team
Ryan – 4 teams
Brett – 1 team
Perez – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Fisk – 2 teams
Winfield – 6 teams
Puckett – 1 team
Smith – 2 teams
Murray – 5 teams on 7 occasions
Carter – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Molitor – 3 teams
Eckersley – 5 teams on 6 occasions
Sandberg – technically 2, but for all intents and purposes, 1 team
Boggs – 3 teams
Sutter – 3 teams
Ripken – 1 team
Gwynn – 1 team
Gossage – 9 teams on 10 occasions
Rice – 1 team
Henderson – 8 teams on infinity occasions
Dawson – 4 teams
 
27 Modern Day HOFs
 
A-Rod – 3 teams
Bonds – 2 teams
Jeter – 1 team
Griffey – 3 teams on 4 occasions
Pujols – 1 team
Pudge – 6 teams on 7 occasions
Manny – 3 teams
Piazza – 5 teams
Ichiro – 1 team
Frank Thomas – 3 teams
Sosa – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Palmeiro – 3 teams on 5 occasions
Biggio – 1 team
Chipper Jones – 1 team
Helton – 1 team
Sheffield – 8 teams
Bagwell – 1 team
Clemens – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Randy – 6 teams on 7 occasions
Maddux – 4 teams on 5 occasions
Rivera – 1 team
Pedro – 5 teams
Glavine – 2 teams on 3 occasions
Schilling – 7 teams
Smoltz – 3 teams, but 2 teams in last year
Mussina – 2 teams
Halladay – 2 teams
 
 
6 Young Studs
 
Mauer – 1 team
Cabrera – 2 teams
Utley – 1 team
Hanley – 2 teams
Johan – 2 teams
Sabathia – 3 teams
 
 
Breakdown:
 
HOF – 9 lifers, including Sandberg; Ozzie makes 10 if you’re being generous
Modern Day HOFs – 8 lifers, Smoltz, Glavine and Frank Thomas are reverse Ozzies
Young Studs – 2 lifers so far; Hanley’s a cheating “2 teams” for now, so call it 3.
 
 
            So, 60 nearly full-career players, at most 21 lifers. And the proportion remains roughly the same if you only take the top 10, or top 15, or top 30 of these players, to fight against the fact that some of these players aren’t truly great.[4] I’m surprised the number is as low as it is, actually, though it broadly confirms my original thoughts.
 
            Moreover, the list presents a clear theme, though it’s unclear where on the causation see-saw we are. Players that stayed with one team for the entire portion of their careers are also the most likely to be associated with a city. Common sense, and I have no idea whether teams are more willing to keep a guy because he’s the face of the city, or whether he becomes the face of the city because he sticks around (more likely, in my opinion), but the lifers in this list are also basically a list of baseball’s favorite sons. Ripken, Gwynn, Pujols, Schmidt, Yount, Brett, Puckett, Jeter[5] and Ichiro each define the teams they played for, even if they mostly reside in the middle of the pack when it comes to the 60 greatest players of the past 40 years.
 
            There are a few follow-up questions I might consider, including: How do these rates compare to “average” players? To what extent is this a form of survivor bias, with abilities giving players a longer career, and thus a greater chance to switch teams? What percentage of their value does each player give to their primary team? To the secondary, tertiary, etc., teams?
 
            However, I wanted to put this out there ahead of all that, because no one knows how actively interested in those follow-up questions I’ll be after lunch.


[1] That’s a bag of butts, in the event that you did not know.
[2] Players that are eligible for the Hall but not yet inducted are the largest group of the forgotten. Almost every single one of these players (from Raines to Blyleven to Alomar to McGriff) played for more than one team. Only Barry Larkin jumps out at me as a player left off the list who was also a lifer. I didn’t include these players because, simply, they weren’t considered great enough to be HOFs when they were first considered. Obviously this is a mistake in some cases, but it does suggest something about how these players were thought about when they played.
[3] The list includes players like Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens and Bonds who may have difficulty getting into the actual Hall of Fame, but whose performance during their careers matched what would be necessary to get in.
[4] Of course, that is taking as fact that Joe Mauer is, in fact, great in this way. He may be, but as I wrote in The Firefly Fallacy (bam, I just referenced myself), it’s a little premature. And no, that’s NOT what she said.
[5] And to a lesser extent, Rivera
 
 

COMMENTS (17 Comments, most recent shown first)

Richie
Ummm, don't try to throw haymakers. Just when something doesn't add up that I can see, I'll write "I don't see where this adds up 'cuz of such-and-such reason".

Sometimes somebody'll point something out, and 'ahh, I see', and I'll learn something. I'm sure other times my ego gets in the way of my seeing things.

I'll try to remember to phrase things more sensitively. Tho' if anyone decides to set a betting line on that, I suppose I'd advise to scoff at the spread and give the points.
11:59 AM Feb 13th
 
SeanKates
I will say this about Richie: He throws haymakers. I respect that. It's much easier to respect when he's on your side, but either way, always nice to have someone willing to go to the mattresses on tiny points.
6:02 PM Feb 12th
 
Richie
Doesn't really hold. 'As a rule, teams lucky enough to have a Great Player don't let those players go' is very different from 'etc., etc. unless they don't have much choice'. It's that second theory+caveat that you're putting forward here.

If Mauer does wind up going, everyone will then say "the Twins had no choice 'cuz they couldn't afford him". Adding such a caveat to the hypothesis really makes it pretty useless.
12:57 AM Feb 12th
 
DaveFleming
Well, I figure I'd chime in some...

First: I said teams 'generally' don't move great players. There are exceptions: when a team can't afford/contend with a player, and when a team has a personality conflict with a player. And I'm talking about players who were established as 'great': Hanley Ramirez doesn't disprove the arguement becuase he turned out to be great with the Marlins: he sure wasn't great in Boston. Until the Marlins move him, he's in the one-team camp.

The point on Mauer is that he is in his peak, and great players in their peak are seldom moved. Free agency has altered that somewhat, but far LESS than one would assume.

Using your list of 27 Modern Day-ers....

Eight are lifers: Jeter, Rivera, Pujols, Ichiro, Biggio, Bagwell, Helton and Jones. I wouldn't mind seeing Posada on that list, but that's just me.

Let's look at the rest:

-Frank Thomas wasn't moved until well after his 'prime'- he spent his best years, the years when he was 'great', with the White Sox.

-Sosa wasn't considered great until he got to the Cubs. Again, he wasn't 'moved' during the years he was great.

-Clemens: the Sox thought he was done. The Sox thought his peak was over. They were wrong, but didn't think they were letting a great player go.

-Pedro falls in the 'we can't win with him' catagory: the Expos weren't a viable team then...they let him go because it didn't matter.

-Glavine and Smoltz played their peak years on the Braves, before moving on late in their careers.

-Sheffield was traded BEFORE he was great, and he moved during his peak years because he was a personality problem. Manny was probably a little bit of a headcase, too.

-Griffey wanted to go to Cinncinatti...if he wanted to stay in Seattle, the Mariners would've kept him. I believe the Mariners offered more $ than Cinncy. That's another personality conflict...there was nothing the Mariners could do to keep him.

-Bonds wanted to play in San Fran, and he was a headache in Pittsburgh.

That's eighteen of twenty-seven who either a) weren't moved in their prime, or b) were moved due to circumstances beyond their talent on the field.

I don't know....I still think the statement holds: 'As a rule, teams lucky enough to have a Great Player don’t let those players go.'
2:28 PM Feb 11th
 
ventboys
I'm late to this one, so sorry about that. This subject is kinda lazy, but fun, and I define "lazy" as something that I thought of myself when Dave brought it up. I don't much care about the subject, Sean, but I wanted to tell you that I loved how you wrote it. I am really liking your recent style. There is a snarkiness there that makes it interesting. You have always been kind of snarky, but you are getting really good at it. I know that you are still really young, but does that mean that you can't find a niche as a grouch? I am not being sarcastic. I am serious. You do this very well, and in a funny, interesting, enjoyable way. I don't see you as anything like a Mariotti, he's a moron. I see you more like a Bobby Knight or a Kornheiser, but from your own perch.
3:42 AM Feb 8th
 
SeanKates
Beyond done with this argument. Go look up Vern Stephens and Larry Doyle, though. Their careers are instructive on getting ahead of oneself when proclaiming greatness.

Doyle had three MVP-type seasons by the age Mauer is now (winning once, coming in third once, and making the ballot in 1913, though his 1909 season was better). His line through his age 26 season, in a reduced Offensive environment, was .300/.370/.427, for an OPS+ of 131 at 2b. He continued to produce at an above average clip and left the game at the age of 33. Even at that relatively early age, he retired as the NL's all-time leader among 2b in pretty much every slugging category except HRs (where he was third).

Through his age 26 season, Stephens was on 3 AS teams (not counting the unofficial game in 1945) and 6 MVP ballots, four times in the top 10. The following year he made it four, seven and five, respectively. The year after that: five, eight and six. He was a great player at that point in his life. He turned 31 and he went to crap (or basically average), and his decline was as rapid as it was steep. He was out of the game (and chances for the HOF) by 34.

Each of these players were great at this point in their career. And some turned out more great than others. To properly use the phrase "begging the question," it's begging the question to say "Joe Morgan wasn't great because he was traded, and after all, people never get rid of great players," when what we are looking at is whether teams get rid of great players. Dave suggested two reasons people get rid of great players: head cases and believing they're done. There are more than those two. One of the others is "not knowing that someone is great because he hasn't reached his full potential of greatness yet," and another is "not knowing that someone already is great (and might even get greater)." The Astros made the latter of these mistakes, not the former.

I like Joe Mauer, don't get me wrong. I think he's great now, and will probably continue to be great for at least a couple of years. But any analysis that puts him BEYOND comparison with Morgan, Stephens and Doyle at this point in their respective careers is probably flawed. They are comparable players, with comparable values. Mauer may have a slightly higher value/PA, but he has fewer PAs (in some cases, far fewer)...a skill that matters.
8:49 AM Feb 4th
 
Richie
If you do a 'similarity score' type thing with Joe Morgan 1972, I'll see that as valid. Otherwise?

You're comparing Larry Doyle and Vern Stephens to Joe Mauer. Joe Morgan was not seen as 'great' when the Astros traded him, as can be seen by the trade in which he was involved. Which trade was not at the time seen as awful. If it was obvious what Joe Morgan was, never mind what he became, the trade would've been ripped to pieces in the press.

You're Shanghaiing Dave's original point/hypothesis to make - and win - you're own brand new argument.
10:04 PM Feb 3rd
 
evanecurb
Sean:

re: Smoltz, Glavine, Thomas: Sorry, I missed the fact that you already had covered this. Obviously I think it's the right way to go.
9:52 PM Feb 3rd
 
evanecurb
The thing that nobody ever mentions was how much Joe Morgan's appearance changed between the time he retired and when he started managing the Red Sox in 1988.
9:50 PM Feb 3rd
 
SeanKates
This is really beating a senseless side point into the ground, but it deserves some saying. Joe Morgan was great when he changed teams. Every single player with his background at that point in his career (career through age 27, 3800+ PAs, premium position (includes all MI, 3B and C), 120+ OPS+ (for use of a simple stat) is a great player. And WAS a great player at that time. He places 15th on that list, sorted via OPS+. Every single player ahead of him is a HOF, a should be HOF (A-Rod, Jeter), or is Larry Doyle/Vern Stephens (men who were definitely great, but faded/left too quickly).

This is getting us way off track, and I don't want to speak to Carlton, because I'm not even sure he's in the top 15 of my sample above, but Joe Morgan was great when he was let go. He became GREATER, but that's what a team might expect, WHEN YOU LET A GREAT PLAYER GO IN HIS PRIME.

Denis Menke was traded WITH Joe Morgan, not for him, and he was 30 at the time. His AS seasons were at the ages of 28 and 29, or a year older than Morgan was at the time of the trade. He wasn't great, but the comparison between a guy who makes two AS teams at 28 and 29, and one who made his at 22 and 26 with 2 other AS-caliber seasons before the age of 27, is poorly made. Like I said, it doesn't matter, but let's not confuse what we're actually talking about.
5:58 PM Feb 3rd
 
Richie
No, it seems to me the point is that the player is undeniably great. Not that teams ought to be able to figure out which 2-3 time All Stars will become great (the great majority won't).

Joe Morgan and change was traded for Denis Menke and change. Denis was also a 2-time all star. Did he become historically great? Carlton was traded for Wise, also a 2-time all star. Did he become historically great?

You guys are bringing in an entirely different skill, accurately projecting player performance, and so also bringing in an entirely additional issue.
12:00 PM Feb 3rd
 
RangeFactor
For the sake of accuracy, Steve Carlton was traded away by the Cardinals (straight-up for Rick Wise) at the age of 27 immediately after a 20-win season and having been a three-time All-Star with the Cards. He'd be on the Seaver, Maddux, Bonds, etc. list.
10:46 AM Feb 3rd
 
SeanKates
Evan,

In my article, I did include Smoltz (and Glavine and Thomas) as lifers to reach the 21. Mays and Aaron weren't in my sample, obviously.

Richie,

I agree that Mauer has produced MORE than Morgan did in the years leading up to his Cincy days. But Houston lost a GREAT player, whether they knew they were doing it or not. That, I believe, was Dave's point. Teams have a way of keeping great players, and Houston functionally failed to keep a guy with a 121 OPS+ over 4000 PAs at a premier position, who was just entering his prime. I don't think it makes a lick of difference, but I think it sort of demeans Joe (for once in a way he doesn't deserve) to say he wasn't great then. I think when you say "Teams keep great players," that covers teams figuring out that their players are great, and aren't going to go on a run of 5 straight years of MVP-4, MVP-4, MVP-8, MVP, MVP. The team let go a great player, even if he was only very very good with them.
9:04 AM Feb 3rd
 
Richie
Dave's original intent was to predict what would happen to Mauer right here right now. Not 10 years from now. Not that a research permutation of that wouldn't be interesting.

Joe Morgan as a 2-time all star doesn't count. There are hundreds of those. Mauer's at a tremendously higher level than that. (never mind how many all star teams he's made) A historically great performer right now. That's not what Joe Morgan was seen as while with the Astros. Nor was he at that absolute elite level while with the Astros. He rose to it as a Red.
10:49 PM Feb 2nd
 
evanecurb
To be clear, and to be true to the original intent, let's include late career switchers like Mays, Aaron, Smoltz, Karl Malone, Emmitt Smith, and Joe Montana as Lifers. The original team got all of their peak seasons. Niekro is a lifetime Braves' guy under this method.

I don't think this switch in method would change the results one bit. Your conclusions appear to be correct.

I still like the method of naming ten great players off the top of your head. It's a test of integrity if nothing else - easy to tilt the list to your favor if you want to. Not saying any of us did that, but it's a secondary benefit of Dave's method.
9:54 PM Feb 2nd
 
SeanKates
I think that list is pretty close (don't want to get into Ripken fights here, for one), but I believe that Morgan was definitely let go in his prime (sure, his Cincy years were better, but he was a two time AS in Houston before being sent away). Think the Pedro move counts, but am fine with "Iffy." All the same, pretty interesting.
9:08 PM Feb 2nd
 
Richie
So what are the top 10, 15 or 30 lists? Probably top 10, as Dave's arguing that Mauer, peak-wise (what matters on this issue) top 5 at his position all-time. So heck, maybe top 5.

OK, I'll do it myself. (you people are SOOO! unreasonable) I get Morgan, Seaver, Carlton, Schmidt, Brett, Ripken, Henderson, Arod, Bonds, Griffey, Pujols, Clemens, Thomas, Maddux, Rivera, Pedro.

Key: They have to be moved at THE SAME POINT IN THEIR CAREER AT WHICH MAUER NOW IS. So the Red Sox letting Clemens go where they did doesn't count, as he wasn't pitching great then. Not until he afterward 'roided up did he again become great.

Schmidt, Brett, Ripken, Rivera, Pujols: lifers. Tho' if you want to take Pujols off the list till the Cards either next sign/let go of him, I could see your point.

Morgan, Carlton, Thomas: retained while great players. When their teams let go of them, no one would argue they were currently great players.

Pedro: iffy. He had the one HUGE year with Montreal before going to Boston, then was only one year removed from greatness when going to the Mets.

Moved while GREAT! players: Seaver, Henderson, ARod, Bonds, Griffey, Clemens, Maddux. Clemens not Sox to Jays, but Jays to Yankees.

So I get 50/50, which proportion still would clearly back Sean over Dave.
6:11 PM Feb 2nd
 
 
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