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The Short Career Guys Group VI—The Dick Allen Group

April 9, 2010

 

            OK, we come at last to the special cases, to the players who perhaps can’t be evaluated as Hall of Famers strictly by the processes and standards we have laid out as general guidelines, plus a couple of guys I just didn’t know what else to do with.  We’ve got six in this group, which brings our total to 71:

 

71.   Herb Score (75-58, 562)

70.   Bob Locker  (71-46, .603)

 

69.   Tony Conigliaro (95-82, .537). 

68.   Johnny Murphy (88-58, .600)  102

67.  Brian McRae  (134-151, .470) 125

66.  Tiny Bonham (111-69, .618)  131

65.  George Case  (138-148, .482)  133

64.  Vince Coleman  (144-166, .465)  135

63.  Steve Gromek (140-120, .538)  150

62.  Sam Chapman (138-152, .475)  131

61.  J. R. Richard (125-97, .565)  141

60.   Scott Fletcher (147-153, .490)  144

 

59.   Jack McDowell (126-87, .548)  148

58.  Bobby Higginson  (142-121, .540)  152

57.  Jim Ray Hart (130-79, .622)  156

56.   Spud Chandler (123-54, .696) 158

55.   Bob Veale (145-116, .556)  160

54.  Pete Fox  (161-156, .509)  164

53.  Johnny Allen (145-107, .576)  164

52.  Sal Maglie (142-83, .631) 172

51.  Thornton Lee  (158-127, .555)  174

 

50.   Ray Chapman (154-103, .607)  Win Share Value of 179

 

            Killed by a pitch just as the Cleveland Indians were near the end of a nine-year battle to reach the top of the American League, Chapman had a defensive won-lost contribution of 36-4 over his last four seasons (19-19 before that), and was an above-average offensive player every season of his career except his injury-plagued 1915 campaign.  Given his performance levels for his last four seasons (29-10, 21-10, 18-11 and 19-10), it is reasonable to think that his career might possibly have reached a Hall of Fame standard, had he been able to continue.   Team Success Percentage:  .701.

 

49.  Bobby Shantz  (153-99, .607)  180

48.   Firpo Marberry (159-104, .604)  186

47.   Jim Maloney (163-91, .642)  198

46.   Freddy Lindstrom (184-141, .564)  202

45.   Chick Hafey (167-96, .634)  202

44.   Lu Blue (191-163, .539) 205

43.   Rollie Fingers (170-107, .612) 205

42.   Rico Carty (179-112, .615)  213

41.  Allie Reynolds (192-144, .572)  216

40.  Riggs Stephenson (171-81, .671)  216

 

39.  Danny Tartabull  (175-93, .654)   216

38.  Johnny Pesky (168-95, .640) 205

37.  Addie Joss (167-85, .662)  208

36.  Dizzy Dean (166-80, .674)  208   

35.  Ken Williams (179-106, .630)  217

34.   Ron Guidry (176-95, .650)  217

33.  Dominic DiMaggio (186-127, .595)  217

32.  Don Newcombe (181-96, .653)  223

31.  Smokey Joe Wood  (177-86, .673)  223

30.  Hal Trosky (184-104, .638)   224

 

29.  Nomar Garciaparra (191-95, .668)  239

 

28.  Roger Maris (197-88, .690)  Win Share Value of 251

            With a defensive winning percentage of .607, we have Maris scored as one of the best defensive outfielders on this list.   His won-lost contributions in his two MVP seasons are 25-2 and 30-4, and we have him as a quality player until the end of his career, even without his power:

 

Year

Wins

Losses

Percentage

WS Value

1960

25

2

.927

37

1961

30

4

.886

43

1962

23

10

.700

29

1963

15

2

.856

21

1964

22

6

.795

29

1965

6

3

.628

7

1966

10

11

.483

10

1967

16

8

.670

20

1968

12

6

.659

14

 

            Team Success Percentage:  .703.

 

27.  Albert Belle (205-106, .660)  254

26.  Roy Campanella (166-71, .701)   214

25.  Jacques Fournier  (209-102, .673)  263

24.  Dolph Camilli (211-97, .685)  268

23.  Phil Rizzuto (216-133, .620)  258

22.  Ralph Kiner (203-81, .698)  261

21.   Sandy Koufax (216-115, .653)  266

 

20.  Wally Berger (206-84, .709)  Win Share Value of 267

 

            Wally Berger hit 38 home runs as a rookie in 1930, which was a record for rookie until finally broken by Mark McGwire in 1987, tied first by Frank Robinson in 1956.    This, really, is all that anybody from my generation knew about him.   I came along as a baseball fan about 20 years after Berger was gone, so he was then sort of where Fred Lynn or Kent Hrbek is now—a short-career player who had left some memory behind, but not a lot.

            There are three center fielders from that era who have similar numbers—Earl Averill (1929-1941, 1,669 games, 238 homers, 1,165 RBI, .318 average, .928 OPS), Hack Wilson (1923-1934, 1,348 games, 244 homers, 1,063 RBI, .307 average, .940 OPS), and Berger

(1930-1940, 1,350 games, 242 homers, 898 RBI, .300 average, .881 OPS.)    The other two are in the Hall of Fame.   Berger is not and is not likely to be.

            The irony is that I believe Berger was probably the best player of the three.   His numbers don’t quite show it because of park effects; he played in far, far tougher parks for a hitter than either Wilson or Averill.    He bounced around a little bit—as did Hack Wilson, of course, but Wilson had the big RBI season, which eventually put him in the Hall of Fame.

            You might assume and for all I know I may have told you that Berger played mostly for bad teams, but actually, that’s not true, either; his team success percentage was .618.   Berger played for 5 teams in his career that had highly successful seasons, and four more that had moderately successful seasons, whereas he played for only one team (the 1935 Braves) that had a really poor season.   He played in two World Series—as many as Hack Wilson, and more than Averill.    He played in three All-Star games.   He had three high-impact seasons (1931, 1933 and 1935), and is +122 wins over losses in his career, thus meeting two of the three tests of a Hall of Famer. He just somehow failed to hold the attention of history.

 

19.   Ross Youngs (202-71, .740)   267

18.  Charlie Keller (191-25, .883)  274

17.   Babe Herman (217-97, .692)  278

16.   Tony Oliva (221-105, .678)  279

 

15.  Darryl Strawberry (219-87, .716)  Win Shares Value of 285

 

            Best season 1988 (29-3, .898 Percentage.)    Team Success Percentage;  .744.  The Mets fell apart when they got rid of him.

 

14.   Kirby Puckett (238-140, .630)  287

13.  Jackie Robinson (211-55, .793)   288

 

12.   Joe Gordon (229-111, .674) 289

11.  Roy Thomas (232-100, .698)  297

10.  Don Mattingly (243-127, .656)  301

9.  Frank Chance (218-46, .825)  303

8.  Mickey Cochrane (224-72, .757)  300

 

7.  Larry Doby (233-69, .772)  317

6.   Hank Greenberg (231-55, .806)  319

 

5.   Johnny Evers (261-133, .662)  325

4.  Joe Tinker (271-146, .649)  333

 

3.  Shoeless Joe Jackson (252-32, .889)  Win Shares Value of 362

            Shoeless Joe was the best hitter relative to his era in this group, with a career record, as a hitter, of 205+10—more credit than opportunity.   In part this is because his career lacks a decline phase, which would have dragged him down under 1.000.   In part this is because there are special problems in evaluating the hitters of that era.   In the Dead Ball era there were not many runs scored, and, of those runs that were scored, many were created by defensive errors and aggressive baserunning.  This complicates the business of making accurate assessments of hitters.   There were many, many very weak hitters in that era, and a few very dominant hitters like Cobb, Speaker and Wagner.   These hitters measure as more dominant, relative to their era, than modern hitters. 

            But obviously, Shoeless Joe was a great hitter, and obviously he would be in the Hall of Fame today were it not for the Black Sox scandal.   Perhaps he belongs anyway; I’ll leave that up to you.   Team Success Percentage:  .683.

 

2.  Dick Allen (272-81, .771)  367

            Heading into the 1964 season, major league baseball had had only one rookie in twenty years who had had 200 hits, that being Harvey Kuenn in 1953, who had 209 hits but no power.   In 1964 both Dick Allen and Tony Oliva had 200 hits as rookies, and both did so with 80 extra base hits—about 40 doubles, about 30 homers.

            Their rookie seasons were very comparable, but, interpreting their batting stats by the standards we understood at that time, we thought Oliva was a little bit better.   The key stats then were the triple crown numbers (Homers, RBI, Batting Average).   Oliva held narrow edges in all three—32 homers to 29, 94 RBI to 91, .323 average to .318.

            We now realize that in fact Allen’s rookie season was substantially better:

            1)  Oliva made 476 outs.   Allen made 452.

            2)  Allen walked almost twice as much, 67 times to 34.

            3)  There were 1 to 2% more runs scored in the American League.

            4)  Oliva played in a part with a park factor of 104; Allen, in a park with a park factor of 96.

            Considering all of those things, we have Oliva with an individual won-lost contribution of 26-6, an MVP-candidate record, but Dick Allen with a record of 30-3.

            For 30 years I have argued against Dick Allen being considered as a Hall of Famer, and, one last time, let me try to explain why.   First, I think that the record documents that Dick Allen was almost universally considered by sportswriters, while he was active, to be not a Hall of Fame player.    Second, I think that a fair and honest reading of the many, many incidents and controversies of his career will show clearly that Allen himself was the source of almost all the trouble that followed him.   Third, I have argued that these incidents had a negative impact on the performance of his teams, and that that negative impact substantially offset the positive impact of his on-field performance.

            I have argued these things for many years, I believe, in an effort to promote understanding, in this way:  That I knew that a time would come when people would look at Dick Allen’s playing record, and demand to know why he was not in the Hall of Fame.   I was trying to say “There is a reason there, if you take the trouble to look.   If you take the time and make the effort to go back and re-construct the full record of his career, you will see that his exclusion was not arbitrary or capricious, but was a natural consequence of Dick Allen’s own choices and his own actions.” 

            OK, that’s the argument that I have made for 30 years, and let us set aside the issue of whether it was true or whether it was false.  The time has come, I think, to put the past away, and to elect Dick Allen to the Hall of Fame.

            Look, 35 years ago I argued that “a time will come in the future when Dick Allen will be a strong candidate for the Hall of Fame.”   At first people thought I was goofy for even suggesting such a thing, but I knew that, in the exact same way that bones endure long after the flesh rots, statistics endure long after the memories of a player have rotted into nothing.    That time has come.   Almost no one really remembers most of the dozens or hundreds of Dick Allen controversies over the years 1962 to 1980 (and now that I think about it, I am certain that it was in fact hundreds.)   These incidents can be divided into those which have been forgotten by 95% of the public, and those which have been forgotten by 99% of the public.  The 99% stack is much taller.

            These.  ..”controversies” is too strong a word.   These awkward moments could be divided, as well, into those for which Allen was responsible, and those for which he was not.   And those for which he was responsible could be divided into those which actually make some negative statement about Allen’s character, and those which were just. . .different.   Writing “Boo” in the dirt to return the Boos of the Philadelphia fans. ..what really was wrong with that?

            And then again, we could divide those incidents for which Allen was responsible and which reflect not the best image of him into some small number which are truly unfortunate, and a much larger number which are merely human.   Holding up the team bus?   The truth is, if I was an athlete, I’d wind up holding up the team bus sometimes, I know I would.   It’s just kind of the way I am.    Some of us don’t fit too well into organized group activities—Dick Allen didn’t, and I don’t, so sue me.    If I was on a sports team and I had to conform my conduct to the expectations of my teammates, I would irritate the living hell out of my coaches and teammates, and there is nothing I could do about this; it’s just the way I am.  Allen in many ways did better than I would.

            The question, then, is “How do we feel about the fact that all of these things have been forgotten?”   And I have to say:  I’m OK with it.   Let’s forget them, let’s bury them, let’s move on.   We’ve argued about them long enough.   Heal the wounds?  The wounds have all healed long ago.   All that is left now is the anger that can be re-generated without limit from the recountings of past wrongs.   We don’t carry those things forward forever; wise people don’t.   Normal people don’t.   At some point you throw them away like worn-out luggage.    The statute of limitation has lapsed on holding up the team bus.   The time has come to set aside Dick Allen’s failings or the allegations of them, recognize the excellence of his performance on the field, and put the man in the Hall of Fame.

            I have introduced here a concept of “team success percentage”. .  ..I’ll run through Dick Allen’s year by year, as it may be of some interest.   Dick Allen played briefly for the Phillies in 1963.   We credit (or charge) him with a won-lost contribution for that season of 0-1, but the team had a highly successful season, a “5” season on the 1-to-5 scale, so Allen’s Team Success Percentage starts off at 1.000 (average team success, 5.00.)

            The Phillies in 1964 had a catastrophic failure at the end of the season, which tends to blind the memory to the fact that it was, until mid-September, a dream season for them.    The end-of-season tank job makes the season a “4”, rather than a “5”, but still, it was on balance a season in which the Phillies exceeded expectations.    Allen’s won-lost contribution was 30-3—incidentally the second-best season that he would ever have—so we add those together, making 33, multiply by 4, making 132, and add that to the totals from the previous season.   That makes 137/34, a 4.03 average, which is a team success percentage, at that point of .758 (3.03 / 4).

            Allen didn’t play as well in 1965; his won-lost contribution was “merely” 27-6, but more to the point, the team did not have much of a season, either.   Having won 87 games in 1963 and 92 in 1964, they dropped off to 85 wins, 1.1 wins under expectation, which makes it a “3” season on the 1-to-5 scale.   27 + 6 is 33, 33 * 3 is 99, 99 +137 is 236, 236/67 is 3.52, 3.52 minus 1 is 2.52, 2.52 divided by 4 is .630. . .Allen’s Team Success Percentage, through 1965, was .630, actually .633 if you carry more decimals.

            In 1966 Allen hit .317 with a career-high 40 homers, despite missing some time with an injury.   His individual won-lost contribution was 26-1.   The team, however, had another “blah” season, finishing 87-75, which we put (again) into the “3” category.    Allen’s individual won-lost contribution is now 84-11, but his Team Success Percentage has dropped to .595.

            In 1967 the Phillies fell off to 82-80, which was 2.3 games below expectation.   It’s another “blah” season, another “3” season.    Off the field, Allen was enmeshed in one controversy after another after another.   On the field, his won-lost contribution was 23-2.   His team success percentage was still .575, which is still pretty good.

            In 1964 the Phillies had been looked upon as a team of the future.   That future had never arrived, and in 1968 the Phillies finished 76-86, more than six games below expectation, even though expectations for the team were falling.    Fairly or unfairly, Allen was widely blamed for the failures of the team.   We place that team in group “2”.   Allen, with an individual won-lost contribution of 22-8, has a team success contribution for the season of 30 * 2.    His team success percentage dropped to .509.

            The 22-8 record makes a Win Shares value of 30, and this represented the fifth time in his five-year career that Allen had reached the “30” level that we have described as a “high impact season.”   His totals were declining—44, 38, 38, 34, 30—but he already had five high-impact seasons.  A Hall of Fame career needs at least three.   Allen would have only two more high-impact seasons the rest of his career, but those two make a total of seven—far above the minimum standard for a Hall of Fame candidate.

            In 1969, another year of unrelenting disruptions, the Phillies finished 63-99.    That was a bad year; no saving that one.   Allen’s team success percentage dropped to .440.   His individual won-lost contribution was 17-7.

            Allen was traded that winter to the St. Louis Cardinals.   Allen got along well with St. Louis manager Red Schoendienst, who never had a bad word to say about him, but the Cardinals did not have a good year.    Allen did not have a great year, with an individual won-lost contribution of 16-10.  The Cardinals finished 76-86, more than ten games below expectations for a team that had won 285 games over the previous three seasons.  That’s another “1”.   Allen’s team success percentage dropped to .385.

            The figure, however, had bottomed out.   Allen was traded to Los Angeles that winter, to the Dodgers.   Allen hit “just” .295 in LA with “just” 90 RBI, but those numbers are deceptively good, remembering that it was Dodger Stadium.   The Dodgers finished 89-73, which was a “4” season, and Allen finished 24-8.   His team success percentage moved up to .435.

            Allen was traded again, this time to Chicago, the White Sox, for Tommy John.   In 1972 the White Sox had a great year, and Dick Allen—beloved by his manager and teammates that year--won the MVP Award.   The White Sox, who had lost 106 games in 1970, went 87-67 in the strike-shortened 1972 season, exceeding expectations by 15 and a half games.   Allen’s individual won-lost contribution was 30+2, a Win Shares contribution of 46—an MVP-level performance, beyond any doubt.   It was his greatest season, and his team success contribution moved up to .496.   It was also to be his last high-impact season.

            Allen was hurt in 1973, or, depending on who you believe, just didn’t feel like playing.   Actually, I believe Allen; Allen’s reputation was so poor that he got no breaks from the press, but. . .it’s really just an injury.  His individual won-lost contribution was 12-1, but the White Sox had a disappointing year, 77-85, which we score as a “2” on our 1-to-5 scale.   His team success percentage dropped to .484.

            He came back in 1974, played well most of the year, “retired” late in the season.  The White Sox went 80-80, a “3” season.   Allen’s won-lost contribution was 19-6.   His team success percentage edged from .484 to .485.

            Coming out of retirement over the winter, Allen returned to the Phillies.    Allen had his first poor season with the bat, hitting .233 with 12 homers, but the Phillies won 86 games, exceeding expectations by 7.4 games, which is a “4” season.   Allen was 10-15, but his team success percentage vaulted over .500 for the first time since 1968, up to .506. 

            In 1976 the Phillies won 101 games.   Allen played OK as a part-time player (10-8), but the high-level success of his team (a 5) increased his team success percentage to .532.

            Granted free agency that November, Allen signed with the Oakland A’s.   Neither Allen nor the A’s had a good year.   Allen hit .240 with 5 homers in 54 games, a 4-6 won-lost contribution.    The A’s lost 98 games, a “1” season.    Allen’s team success percentage dropped to.517.

            .517 is average.   Allen’s Team Success Percentage, at the end of his career, was .517, which is the average.   Allen’s teams, over the course of his career, were neither notably successful nor notably under-performers.   They were right exactly in the middle of the spectrum.

            You may note that Allen’s Team Success Percentage was lower than anyone else in the top 20 spots on this list.    (Don Mattingly’s Team Success Percentage, which I think I forgot to include in his comment, was .585.)   Everybody else around here did better than Allen.   If one wishes to argue that the record suggests that Allen’s “presence” was not a positive, I don’t think that’s inconsistent with the record.   Perhaps another time, I might have made that argument.

            But that’s in the past, and I’m done with it.   Maybe I was right before; maybe I was wrong.  I don’t know.  On the field, Dick Allen was a major talent, easily surpassing all of the Hall of Fame tests that I have laid out.   In my view the time has come to put the other stuff away, and recognize the quality of his contribution on the field.

 

1.  Joe DiMaggio (322-45, .876)  460

 

 

 

            At this point I’m done with this series of articles as I had originally planned it, but I’m going to stretch it out one more article by looking at Fibonacci Win Points for these players, and at the best players in the group by age.     I have not written that up yet and I have a busy day tomorrow, so I’m not sure I’ll get that posted by Saturday, but I will try.  Thanks for reading.  

 
 

COMMENTS (28 Comments, most recent shown first)

Cooper
I know it's difficult to quantify, but i think there needs to be some grace given for any african-american player who played in the mid-60's. It was a time when even the Civil Rights Bill (64?) had not been passed. There were numerous racists at that time that were quite vocal in there disregard for african -america players. Should we allow for that? I think so.

I think Bill may have had an article sometime back that pointed toward major league players coming from a lower socio-economic backgroud (still true?) and granted we cannot factor each barrier in to each HOF case, but i do think it's a little different when society places that barrier in front of you because you that society does not like the color of your skin. I know i'd hold the bus up.
1:01 PM Jul 15th
 
ThomasQ260
This has been wonderful. I know you revolutionized our thinking about statistics but the truth is you are a terrific writer.
10:02 AM Apr 13th
 
Paul
Speaking, as I was above, of owing someone an apology -- I have reread my post above, and, while I still think there is a kernel of truth in it, I now think it reads much more harsh towards Bill than I intended it to or than is appropriate. In particular, my comparison of Bill to the old Saturday Night Live character Emily Litella, which I had intended to be funny, could easily be read as dismissive and hostile. So I apologize to Bill for that.
7:52 PM Apr 12th
 
CharlesSaeger
Oops, I just missed Hey Bill, and the reconcile-to-team stage isn't around anymore.
6:04 PM Apr 11th
 
CharlesSaeger
tigerlily: I went through the old batting Win Shares and new using pure hypotheticals -- adding 30 runs (say) to an average team, using Pythapat to tally a new won-lost record for the team. I posted the results to Reader Posts about a year ago, I think right after Bill posted his new batting Win Shares formula. What I found was that the old formula would slightly overestimate the additional batting Win Shares that should go to the producer of those runs, while the new formula would give it a bit under. The old formula was actually more accurate, though it wasn't THAT much closer. I even went so far as to come up with a hybrid system of the old and new stuff (more the old) and calculate Win Shares for the 1986 NL.

But that might be getting a bit far ahead; there's clearly more to the system that hasn't been posted. There are defensive win shares for six positions, though I have a feeling that those will be fairly obvious (I was able to generate my own formulas, though partly based on my own research) and akin to those for first basemen. But there's still the steps to make sure each player's Win Shares tally up to those of the team, and I suspect a surprise or two in there. So I think we need to hold our horses before we make judgments about what's going on.

Oh, he did change the offense/defense ratio from 48/52 -- from the other posts, it's obviously now 50/50, the change being how he handled pitchers' batting.
1:01 PM Apr 11th
 
glkanter
Thanks for your reply, Steve. Sorry, I don't see it that way. No BBWAA member should really be 'representing' anyone. This is very much different than pro football, where, in their secret chambers, writers actually do 'formally' advocate for guys from 'their' team. [I think this is accurate, anyways. I heard it one morning on talk radio, so maybe I was sleepy?]
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But, this is baseball. In theory, they're all using the same 'standards', regardless of who we, or they, root for.
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But, that's the bias I'm describing. The local players become 'our guys', and maybe even friends or respected acquaintances of the writers and reporters, or even colleagues. I think being a Mets broadcaster may have helped Ralph Kiner, but that's a guess on my part.
11:19 AM Apr 11th
 
Steven Goldleaf
Doesn't the fact that NY has a much bigger population than Minneapolis argue AGAINST NY's outsized influence? If someone gets 1 vote out of 16 (or whatever) while "representing" 1/100th of the population, and someone else gets 3 votes out of 16 while "representing" 1/20th of the population, who's doing better here? And it's not as if all of New York voters or fans are positive about NY candidates--they tend to be critical as well, especially of the team(s) that they don't happen to root for. Is a Met fan more or less likely than a Twins fan to denigrate Jeter or Rizzuto or Mattingly? I'd say far more--they hate the Yankee mystique and aura. Likewise, a Yankee fan about, say, Keith Hernandez, or a New York Giant fan about Duke Snider--they saw him up close and personal many a time, and the Duke was no Willie Mays, and Hernandez couldn't hold a candle to Mattingly, by a far shot, in their view. It's far more nuanced than you're crediting.
10:53 AM Apr 11th
 
glkanter
Certainly, in my opinion, the number of voters in each city matters.
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New York (I presume) historically has had more newspapers than any other city. And with 3 teams (now 2), probably had more BBWAA members per paper than other cities. And, the NY votes weren't divvied up by the 3 teams, as writers could vote for players from all 3 teams. So, I think that NY advantage still exists. Then you have, what, 8 million fans in the city alone. Try starting a grass roots campaign from the Twin Cities and another from NYC.
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Lastly, NYC is the media capital of the world. Their writers's voices get amplified around the country. Minnesota's, not so much.
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It is what it is. But that doesn't mean, that it's right, or that I should shut up about it. That's why I'm glad the Brewer's owner is speaking out about the disparity in payrolls. Unless people talk about it, it will NEVER change.
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ps I hate the Yankees. But, I respect the caliber of ball by the players.
10:05 PM Apr 10th
 
Richie
Was part of the New York HoF bias perhaps due to a fairly high proportion of BBWAA members being connected to New York (3 out of 16 MLB teams)? If so, might that now be going or gone?
1:13 PM Apr 10th
 
glkanter
One more thing. I'm pretty sure Rico Carty referred to himself as 'The Beeg Mon'. A beautiful hitter. I would imagine he could still swing the big lumber today. Some guys are like that. I think he also used a larger bat than most, like Dick Allen.
3:43 AM Apr 10th
 
glkanter
One more thing. I'm pretty sure Rico Carty referred to himself as 'The Beeg Mon'. A beautiful hitter. I would imagine he could still swing the big lumber today. Some guys are like that. I think he also used a larger bat than most, like Dick Allen.
2:54 AM Apr 10th
 
glkanter
Thank you, Bill for ranking nearly all the players we argue about. My argument a few weeks ago was that NY players, especially those darn Yankees, get in more than equivalent non-New Yorkers. I'm sure I'll do a spreadsheet before long, but, based on Bill's rankings, does anyone have a sense if my argument is valid?
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I'll repeat one of my arguments: Mattingly has (or will have) NY writers advocating for him in a much more influential manner than Tony Oliva has. I don't think any of us would take Oliva over Mattingly in a 'who gets in the HOF' pool, regardless of the odds given. It seems there's no credit given for post season appearances or results in Bill's analysis. It was described somewhere in this series (or comments) that it is the Hall of 'Fame' and post season appearances were, at one time, and still are, really, one way of achieving this 'Fame' (not to mention a measure of team and personal 'achievement'). Oliva was in the post season 3 times, including a ring, Mattingly just once, and no ring. If memory serves, way back in The Politics Of Glory, Bill went into some incredible micro level on Drysdale, almost just for the sport of it. I'm pretty sure he went as far as individual post season (maybe even All Star game) appearances.
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Thanks for the re-evaluation of Dick Allen. I'm not an advocate for his inclusion in the HOF (shows what I know), but the fact that you and Bob Gibson (I'll admit it again, I'm a huge fan of you both) were so far apart on Allen actually troubled me. But I'm like that. Now, thankfully, there is peace.
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And one, final, question for Bill. How much affect did expansion and Dodger Stadium have on Koufax? Thanks!
2:38 AM Apr 10th
 
Paul
I have to include a fairly lengthy quote from Politics of Glory to make my point understandable. "[H]aving convinced his teammates A, B, and C that he was a great guy who had just been misunderstood, he would immediately begin to convince them that teammate D was a racist, teammate E didn't want to win, the press was out to get them all and the manager was an idiot for playing teammate X, rather than teammate C. Every team that he played for eventually degenerated into warring camps of pro-Dick Allen and anti-Dick Allen factions. . . . He did more to [italics] keep [close italics] his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played major league baseball."
It seems to me, Bill, that if you no longer believe the evidence supports those allegations, you owe Dick Allen a much more fulsome apology than the Emily Litella style "Never mind" in this article. Whereas if you still believe what I quoted above, I think you would have to logically conclude that the statistical analyses indicating he helped his teams win are, in this case, illusions. And whether 95% or 99% of today's know about the discord he sowed on his teams does not have much to do with the question.
1:40 AM Apr 10th
 
champ
You know, it's funny - I never saw Dick Allen play. I haven't even seen any old clips of him. I don't think I had ever heard of him until I read your Baseball Book entry. Since then, I have read your entry on him in Politics of Glory, and I saw part of an interview with Bob Costas on MLB Network. Costas asked Allen about what you wrote, and Allen was smugly defensive, saying that he had never down anything to you that would warrant such criticism.
That comment speaks volumes about Allen. You wrote about his behavior and actions, and drew some conclusions that were critical of him, therefore you must have a personal problem with him, and since you're the one with the problem, not him, he is totally blameless.
Look, Allen has HOF numbers, and it isn't fair to say he wasn't a "winning" player, given his average team success pct and the performance of the 1976 Phillies. You even wrote about how his teammates loved him, or some of them, anyway, when they held their private celebration.
Oh no! Not those minor details of the past!
Look, is Dick Allen the best player not in the Hall? If he is, then maybe we talk about putting him in. Is he the best living player not in the Hall? If that's the case, we had better talk about him, and get about honoring him before he dies. But that stuff, the stuff he did that last year in Oakland, showering in the middle of a game, going to the track during a game, that stuff matters. He was a ballplayer, a professional ballplayer, and he wasn't giving his best. Forget his best - he wasn't giving anything.
That's not holding up a bus or fighting with a teammate - that stuff happens. Hernandez and Strawberry. Wathan and Wilson. Those guys fought. It wasn't in the heat of a pennant race and their teams aren't famous for an historic collapse, so we don't talk about it.
On the surface, a lot of the vague criticisms of Allen could be applied to Reggie! Jackson. Reggie was mecurial, moody, restless, irritable, discontent, and he was polarizing. And Reggie's initial troubles with the NY press can be blamed on the "straw that stirs the drink" story, in that Reggie was trying to explain that he was part of the team, and the reporter turned Reggie's explanation into a story about Reggie's ego, or at least that was how Munson and the rest of the other Yankees saw it.
But Reggie! was a winning player. It's not just game 6 1977 - he tore his hamstring scoring the series clinching run in 1972, putting Oakland in the world series.
No one is suggesting that Dick Allen didn't have HOF ability, and his stats are there...so, game 7, world series, do you want him on your team?
Sure, why not - I mean, look how Howard and Tex struggled last year. Allen could do some damage with the bat, get on base, knock in some runs.
But what about for a whole season?
What about a whole career?
Do you want him mentoring your young players?
Do you want him leading your team, sending the rookies a message that you only try if you want to?
How ironic it is that the subject of Rose comes up in this discussion ("Stephen Goldleaf"). Rose broke the rule against betting on baseball and thus can't go into the Hall (deservedly so, of course). But who showed more willingness to hustle when playing? Taking out the catcher in the All-Star game? What, did he have 5 dimes on the NL?
For me, the Hall is about excellence. The best players, we can argue about who they were, or who was better, but we can't argue about this: they had to give their best to be enshrined. And for you to dismiss that stuff, saying let bygones be bygones, is irresponsible, in that, we need the whole story, and we need it now. The story balances the stats, and the rehabilitating interviews, and the teammates who say he was a great guy now, it all matters.
Because we aren't deciding whether he was a good guy or a bad guy.
We're deciding if Dick Allen deserves the highest honor his profession offers.
12:45 AM Apr 10th
 
Kev
Bill,

Really interesting thru a prism rarely used. Bravo on Allen --we're probably better off more often than not when we stay between the lines. As for the flip-flop on him, someone once said if you lose or lack the ability to change, you may as well be dead. James Madison originally was a quill-mate of Hamilton, but later a Jeffersonian stalwart. The almost incredible transformation of Detroit Red to Malcom X and the resultant wisdom he uncompromisingly stood for is sadly rarely studied. A lesser switch on Dick Allen is not of major importance--but interesting.

12:09 AM Apr 10th
 
Richie
'Saying "chemistry matters so I don't think you want Dick Allen/2004 Nomar Garciaparra/Barry Bonds/1934 Babe Ruth around for this pennant race" is one thing. This pennant race is reality. It matters. The HoF, however lofty the honor, isn't. It's making assessments about past realities, which assessments are powerless to change those. So the bar to letting Dick Allen et.al. into the HoF is quite properly lower than letting them into your here-and-now pennant race. Ergo, a real but fuzzy thing such as chemistry/character should matter less regarding the HoF.'
10:41 PM Apr 9th
 
Steven Goldleaf
I can take your disowning your youthful exuberance in making personal wisecracks about particular players (barely) as a sign of your maturity, Bill, but reversing your carefully considered judgments as to unworthiness for the HoF? Too much maturity for me. With Allen, you had me well persuaded that if "character" and "sportsmanship" and other such considerations meant anything in the HoF's list of qualities it was seeking, his character and sportsmanship were such to keep all but the most clearly qualified out of the Hall. (To me, "character" made Rose a no-brainer rejection: the man bet on baseball, and then lied about it for decades? Yer out, hits record or no hits record.) Allen just edges over the line of "statistically qualified," a good but not great case for the HoF, and then loses a little forward motion on the non-statistical qualities.
9:17 PM Apr 9th
 
Richie
Not "actually" in the sense of 'who knows?', but as 'exactly rather than what I'm thinking it is'.
6:48 PM Apr 9th
 
Richie
Well, then I'm intellectually/rhetorically with 'robinsong'. How did Dick move from "he did more to keep his team from winning than anyone in the history of baseball" (one of your 'The Baseball Book' books, I believe) to, 'well, who can say?' If Dick spent his whole career being the Nomar the 2004 Red Sox just had to get rid of - if anything, a more evil version of it - seems you're going alot softer on the 'chemistry' thing re the HoF than valuing baseball players in-season.

Which, if that is what you're doing, I suppose I can see some point to it. Maybe. Depending upon what yours' actually is.
6:45 PM Apr 9th
 
benhurwitz
Great writing + compassion = wonderful. Bill, thank you for being you.
4:25 PM Apr 9th
 
bjames
I'll work on explaining the Win Shares thing later. Clarification for Very Anonymous. ...it is no longer clear in my mind that Dick Allen does not merit selection. Clearly he DOES merit selection, as a player. This throws the burden of proof onto those who oppose his selection. Maybe those people can meet that burden; maybe they can't. I don't know.
3:30 PM Apr 9th
 
tigerlily
This is a great series. However, I am trying to understand why there is such a large variation in the WS values bewteen the origninal WS method and the new WS-LS method. For example, Joe Dimaggio goes from 387 WS to a record of 322-45, D Allen goes from 342 WS (in the WS book) to 272-81 and Joe Jackson goes from 294 WS to 252-32. This occurs, to varying degrees, for all hitters in all eras. Middle infielders seem to not lose as much value or even gain some ( i.e. Joe Tinker goes from 258 WS to 271-146), and pitchers tend to gain value (Bob Veale goes from 124 WS to 145-111, Jim Maloney goes from 137 WS to 163-91 among others). Have you changed the ratio of offense to pitching and defense from 52/48?
3:00 PM Apr 9th
 
CharlesSaeger
VA: I don't think that's the case at all. What I see:

Young Bill: Look, Dick Allen had great stats, and in time, folks will focus on those and not that he was a professional pain in the ass and try to put Allen in the Hall.

Older Bill: Look, I know Dick Allen had great stats, but there is a load of things Allen did that hurt his team that don't show up in the stats, and those things should keep him out of the Hall.

Current Bill: You know, looking back at all those annoying things Dick Allen was wont to do, they were mostly no big deal, and none of them were big enough for me to say that Dick Allen should NOT be a Hall of Famer.
2:52 PM Apr 9th
 
Richie
Oh, and "Very" means I'm very unimpeachable rather than merely measly regular unimpeachable (see previous comments on anonymity in 'Hey Bill')
2:40 PM Apr 9th
 
Richie
Position #1: Overall, he absolutely doesn't merit it, but I'm done arguing it.

Position #2: Overall, he absolutely doesn't merit it, but I don't want to argue it anymore so let's put him in.

Don't see any point at all in shifting from #1 to #2 unless you're actually playing a role in keeping the guy out. And, well, I don't see that you have any influence like that. But, maybe you do. I dunno.
2:35 PM Apr 9th
 
tigerlily
This is a great series. However, I am trying to understand why there is such a large variation in the WS values bewteen the origninal WS method and the new WS-LS method. For example, Joe Dimaggio goes from 387 WS to a record of 322-45, D Allen goes from 342 WS (in the WS book) to 272-81 and Joe Jackson goes from 294 WS to 252-32. This occurs, to varying degrees, for all hitters in all eras. Middle infielders seem to not lose as much value or even gain some ( i.e. Joe Tinker goes from 258 WS to 271-146), and pitchers tend to gain value (Bob Veale goes from 124 WS to 145-111, Jim Maloney goes from 137 WS to 163-91 among others). Have you changed the ratio of offense to pitching and defense from 52/48?
2:18 PM Apr 9th
 
Robinsong
I find the change in your attitude toward Allen remarkable, not saying that I disagree (I think you said that he did more to keep his team from winning than anyone in the history of baseball). I recall a diatribe against Jackson saying that he would be the last man you would add to the Hall. Has the steroids debate had an impact on your more forgiving attitude? Thanks again.
2:11 PM Apr 9th
 
CharlesSaeger
Somehow, I knew this was the conclusion with Allen. The issue with Dick Allen is actually kind of like the issue with Joe Jackson, to a much lesser degree. In both cases, we conclude that this player's statistical positives and negatives make him a clear Hall of Famer. In both cases, there are some non-statistical negatives. Does being a drama queen make Dick Allen not qualified for the Hall of Fame? He just hit too well, Albert Belle with an extra few years and a little more kick. (Belle had a better work ethic, in his favor -- Belle's work ethic deserves special mention, and his teammates held him in high regard.) That's scary, even if the guy gave you a headache. Threw the World Series? That's enough to send you packing.
2:05 PM Apr 9th
 
 
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