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The 2011 Hall of Fame Ballot (Part IV)

January 20, 2011

Candidate: 

Edgar Martinez

Rank:

9th

Mob Family Nickname:

Turtle

Votes: 

191, 33%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

270-73, .787

Best Season:

1995, 24+2 (Seattle)

 

             I am glad to see Martinez doing so well in the balloting; he is in an area that suggests he will eventually get there.   The argument against him, of course, is that he was a one-way player, "just" a hitter.   It’s a little bit like arguing that Gwyneth Paltrow can’t sing.   How important is that, really, when you’re making a movie?   Does everybody have to sing?  Does Henry Fonda have to sing to be considered a great entertainer?

             Somebody has to play defense, of course, and we have to apply some penalty to Martinez’ numbers because he didn’t.   In my system we have him with a defensive won-lost record of 11-37—11-15 through 1994, when he was trying to play third base, and 0-22 after 1994, when he was strictly DHing.  His hitting contributions with the bat were so immense that, to me, he’s a Hall of Famer anyway, based on what he did with the lumber.

 

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Candidate: 

Roberto Alomar

Rank:

8th

Mob Family Nickname:

Spits

Votes: 

523, 90%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

307-180, .631

Best Season:

2001, 25-4 (Cleveland)

 

            Alomar, as you all know, was the top vote-getter in the actual balloting, winning election in his second year of eligibility, with 90% of the vote.   On the one hand, I don’t disagree with the vote; Alomar is a deserving Hall of Famer, and I would have voted for him had I had a ten-man ballot.   On the other hand,  I don’t really see that Alomar was the best player on the ballot.   I have him as the 8th best.

            Roberto Alomar won ten Gold Gloves.   That, I think, is the real issue; I don’t believe, honestly, that Roberto Alomar was such a superior defensive second baseman that he deserved ten Gold Gloves.   I think he probably deserved one—the National League Gold Glove in 1988, his rookie season.   I think he won his Gold Gloves the same way that Derek Jeter wins them:  with his bat and his reputation. 

 

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Candidate: 

Mark McGwire

Rank:

7th

Mob Family Nickname:

Muscles

Votes: 

115, 19.8%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

273-71, .794

Best Season:

1998, 31+4 (St. Louis)

 

            Probably enough has been said about Mark McGwire’s Hall of Fame candidacy.    To clarify my position:   I would vote for him, and I think the position that steroid players shouldn’t go into the Hall of Fame is ultimately untenable.   I’m not saying that you have to support him if you don’t want to; if you choose to disqualify him for steroid use, that’s fine with me.   I’m not saying that the Hall of Fame will forgive the steroid users.   I am saying that trying to draw a line between steroid users and non-steroid users requires more sophistication than is ultimately possible in the collective thought of a group of people.   The way that history will ultimately resolve it is, you’re going to have to keep them all out, or it’s not an issue.  It will be impossible to keep them all out, because in fact there are probably some who are already in there; therefore, in the long run it will not be an issue.

            These 36 players had a eleven total seasons with a Win Share Value of 40 or more, which I designate as an MVP level of value.   McGwire’s 1998 season was the best season by any player in this group:

 

Player

Year

Team

HR

RBI

SB

AVG

SLG

OBA

OPS

WS

-

LS

Value

Mark McGwire

1998

StL

70

147

1

.299

.752

.470

1.222

31

 

+4

48

Tim Raines

1984

Mon

8

60

75

.309

.437

.393

.830

31

-

3

45

John Olerud

1993

Tor

24

107

0

.363

.599

.473

1.072

29

 

+2

44

Jeff Bagwell

1996

Hou

31

120

21

.315

.570

.451

1.021

28

-

1

42

Don Mattingly

1986

NYA

31

113

0

.352

.573

.394

.967

29

-

5

42

Tim Raines

1985

Mon

11

41

70

.320

.475

.405

.880

28

-

2

41

John Olerud

1998

NYM

22

93

2

.354

.551

.447

.998

28

-

0

41

Jeff Bagwell

1997

Hou

43

135

31

.286

.592

.425

1.017

28

-

3

40

Jeff Bagwell

1999

Hou

42

126

30

.304

.591

.454

1.045

28

-

4

40

Don Mattingly

1985

NYA

35

145

2

.324

.567

.371

.939

28

-

6

40

Dave Parker

1978

Pit

30

117

20

.334

.585

.394

.979

27

-

3

40

 

             In fact, the group of players won eight MVP Awards—two each by Gonzalez and Murphy, and one each by Bagwell, Mattingly, Dave Parker and Barry Larkin.

 

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Candidate: 

Barry Larkin

Rank:

6th

Mob Family Nickname:

Tools

Votes: 

361, 62.1%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

294-128, .697

Best Season:

1992, 25-4 (Cincinnati)

 

            Barry Larkin should be selected to the Hall of Fame next year, and it will be a good selection.   I evaluate Larkin as the best defensive player in this group of 36 players:

 

 

 

 

 

Defensive

 

 

Fielding

Fielding

Winning

Rank

Player

Wins

Losses

Percentage

1

Barry Larkin

71

18

.799

2

Charles Johnson

35

10

.770

3

Benito Santiago

63

24

.723

4

Alan Trammell

67

35

.657

5

Larry Walker

48

29

.620

6

Lou Whitaker

62

43

.586

7

Raul Mondesi

39

27

.586

 

 

 

 

 

8

John Olerud

47

38

.554

9

Carlos Baerga

34

28

.551

10

Marquis Grissom

52

43

.546

11

Roberto Alomar

55

46

.541

12

Tino Martinez

40

38

.514

13

Bret Boone

38

37

.506

14

B.J. Surhoff

48

47

.501

 

 

 

 

 

15

Don Mattingly

41

41

.498

16

Dave Parker

54

57

.487

17

Jeff Bagwell

41

49

.459

18

Tim Raines

49

59

.454

19

Lenny Harris

19

24

.450

20

Dale Murphy

47

63

.425

21

Fred McGriff

44

60

.422

 

 

 

 

 

22

Rafael Palmeiro

41

65

.387

23

Ellis Burks

30

49

.384

24

Mark McGwire

29

47

.380

25

Harold Baines

31

55

.362

26

Cecil Cooper

31

59

.343

27

Bobby Higginson

18

35

.340

28

Edgar Martinez

11

37

.232

 

 

Candidate: 

Fred McGriff

Rank:

5th

Mob Family Nickname:

Dog

Votes: 

104, 17.9%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

319-152, .678

Best Season:

1989, 27-5 (Toronto)

 

            Fred McGriff hit 493 Home Runs, just short of a number (500) that has traditionally represented automatic elevation into Cooperstown.   McGriff’s performance is being downgraded, I believe, because people think, "Well, he didn’t actually hit 500 homers; he just came close to 500 homers, and anyway, 500 home runs are not what they used to be, before the steroid era; maybe 600 home runs is the new 500.  He had good numbers, but he didn’t have the big, big numbers that Larry Walker did, or Bagwell, or Todd Helton."

            McGriff’s numbers are being discounted by intuition, which is a normal thing; only a few of us really study the numbers.   Almost everybody interprets them by intuition, which is fine.   But I think if you really study the numbers, rather than adjust them by intuition, McGriff was a great player.    For one thing, he has John Olerud’s problem:  too many walks.   McGriff had 300 more walks than an average first baseman in his era, 157 more homers, 200 more RBI.  It’s much more than one pennant’s worth of advantages.

            With Fred McGriff, we have entered the "B" group of candidates:

 

GROUP A

Win Share Value 450 or more

Obvious Hall of Famers

 

GROUP B

Win Share Value 400 to 449

Obvious Hall of Famers

More-than-Qualified Hall of Famers of a type who are almost universally selected fairly quickly.

 

 

            McGriff has a Win Share value of 403.

 

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Candidate: 

Bert Blyleven

Rank:

4th

Mob Family Nickname:

Dutch

Votes: 

463, 79.7%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

357-235, .603

Best Season:

1973, 26-9 (Minnesota)

 

 

            His election ended a long controversy.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Candidate: 

Tim Raines

Rank:

3rd

Mob Family Nickname:

Clouds

Votes: 

218, 37.5%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

340-137, .713

Best Season:

1984, 31-3 (Montreal)

 

            I think in general you’re a Hall of Famer if you are one hundred "games"—one hundred thirds of a game—over .500, because at +100 you have, in essence, won your teams a pennant.  Tim Raines is plus two hundred.   He’s two Hall of Famers.

            In 1983 the Montreal Expos scored only 677 runs as a team.   Raines scored 133 of them—easily the highest percentage of his team’s runs that any of these players scored in any season:

 

Player

YEAR

Team

R

Team Runs

% TR

Tim Raines

1983

Expos

133

677

19.6%

Dale Murphy

1985

Braves

118

632

18.7%

Tim Raines

1985

Expos

115

633

18.2%

Tim Raines

1984

Expos

106

593

17.9%

Dale Murphy

1983

Braves

131

746

17.6%

Jeff Bagwell

1999

Astros

143

823

17.4%

Jeff Bagwell

1994

Astros

104

602

17.3%

Tim Raines

1987

Expos

123

741

16.6%

Marquis Grissom

1994

Expos

96

585

16.4%

Jeff Bagwell

2000

Astros

152

938

16.2%

 

            There have been 49 seasons since 1900 in which a player has had 50 stolen bases and a .400 on base percentage—eight by Rickey Henderson, eight by Ty Cobb, five by Joe Morgan, five by Honus Wagner, four by Eddie Collins, three by Tim Raines.

 

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Candidate: 

Rafael Palmeiro

Rank:

2nd

Mob Family Nickname:

Pills

Votes: 

64, 11.0%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

358-187, .657

Best Season:

1993, 26-6 (Texas)

 

            Palmeiro in 1993 hit .295 with 37 homers; he later hit 38 or more homers for nine straight years, often hitting over .300.  How, then, is the 37-homer season his best?

            Context, and defense.  In 1993, as the steroid era was just getting started, his offensive context was 4.51 runs per 27 outs (league runs/27 outs, park-adjusted.)   In his later years the run context was almost always over 5.00, and several years around or over 5.50.   Also, his defensive contribution in 1993 was 4-3; in his later years it was typically 1-3 or 1-4.    

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Candidate: 

Jeff Bagwell

Rank:

1st

Mob Family Nickname:

Body Bags

Votes: 

242, 41.7%

Career Win Shares and Loss Shares:

327-90, .783

Best Season:

1996, 28-1 (Houston)

 

            Same thing for Bagwell as Palmeiro; his 1996 stats don’t look as good as his stats in later years, but if you adjust for the offensive context, they’re actually better.   In 1996 his context was 4.33 runs per game.   In 2000 it was 5.39.

            We rated players here by how far they are above a .250 replacement level.   If we had rated them instead by how far they were above a .400 replacement level, this is how it would have changed the list:

 

Rank

Over .250

 

Rank

Over .400

1

Jeff Bagwell

 

1

Jeff Bagwell

2

Rafael Palmeiro

 

2

Tim Raines

3

Tim Raines

 

3

Rafael Palmeiro

4

Bert Blyleven

 

4

Mark McGwire

5

Fred McGriff

 

5

Edgar Martinez

6

Barry Larkin

 

6

Fred McGriff

7

Mark McGwire

 

7

Barry Larkin

8

Roberto Alomar

 

8

Larry Walker

9

Edgar Martinez

 

9

John Olerud

10

Lou Whitaker

 

10

Bert Blyleven

11

John Olerud

 

11

Lou Whitaker

12

Larry Walker

 

12

Roberto Alomar

13

Dave Parker

 

13

Dave Parker

14

Harold Baines

 

14

Alan Trammell

15

Alan Trammell

 

15

Harold Baines

16

Don Mattingly

 

16

Don Mattingly

17

Kevin Brown

 

17

John Franco

18

Dale Murphy

 

18

Kevin Brown

19

Ellis Burks

 

19

Ellis Burks

20

Cecil Cooper

 

20

Cecil Cooper

 
 

COMMENTS (14 Comments, most recent shown first)

MarisFan61
My reasoning -- and, I would surmise, the reasoning of many of those 89% who didn't vote for Palmeiro -- seems to be misunderstood and/or distorted the great majority of the time on here.

MONAHAN: Good post; I agree with much of what you say even though we have different bottom lines.
But then there's this last thing in your post:
"Ultimately, it all seems like a colossal waste of energy to service some sliding scale of morality....."

HANK says: "....I really don't understand all of the (what I consider) sanctimonious posturing of people over steroids. Nobody that I know of has suggested punishing....."


It's not about morality, and it's not about "punishing." I know that in many people's minds it's ALSO those things -- but we're talking about a different thing here. It's trying to understand how good the players 'really' were, as opposed to having seemingly-great performance created by PED's.

I know that a lot of people here don't accept this concept, and that some consider it absurd or cannot even grasp it. But to write it off with things like "sanctimonious" and "moralization" and "shouldn't punish them" is to miss what for many of us is the heart of the point.

HANK says also: "....I think the harmful effects of lower amounts has been grossly exaggerated....."

What do you base that on?
12:23 PM Feb 2nd
 
hankgillette
I really don't understand all of the (what I consider) sanctimonious posturing of people over steroids. Nobody that I know of has suggested punishing players who used 'greenies', which was apparently more widespread than steroid use.

Nor has anyone advocated punishing players who did things that actively hurt their performance. Many players years back were smokers. They undoubtedly would have performed better had they not smoked. By smoking they robbed fans of their best performance.

Nobody advocates punishing Mickey Mantle for being a drunk. As great as he was, he would have been better had he stayed sober (he also would have been better had Joe DiMaggio not been such an asshole, but that's another story).

Nobody advocated punishing Babe Ruth for being a glutton, and drinking in an era where alcohol was illegal, or patronizing hookers (also illegal).

Steroids have legitimate medical uses, including recovery from injuries. Considering that athletic training consists of breaking down and building back up muscles, it's no wonder that athletes found that using steroids helped improve training results. An important thing to remember is that simply taking a steroid does virtually nothing alone. The athlete still has to work to get results.

Steroids can certainly be abused, but I think the harmful effects of lower amounts has been grossly exaggerated. Considering that we give athletes a pass on so many things, including things that are harmful, I have a hard time feeling outrage over an baseball player trying to maximize his ability, even if it is through chemical means. There are plenty of things in this world worthy of outrage. I don't think controlled steroid use is one of them.
3:15 PM Jan 31st
 
hankgillette
I really don't understand all of the (what I consider) sanctimonious posturing of people over steroids. Nobody that I know of has suggested punishing players who used 'greenies', which was apparently more widespread than steroid use.

Nor has anyone advocated punishing players who did things that actively hurt their performance. Many players years back were smokers. They undoubtedly would have performed better had they not smoked. By smoking they robbed fans of their best performance.

Nobody advocates punishing Mickey Mantle for being a drunk. As great as he was, he would have been better had he stayed sober (he also would have been better had Joe DiMaggio not been such an asshole, but that's another story).

Nobody advocated punishing Babe Ruth for being a glutton, and drinking in an era where alcohol was illegal, or patronizing hookers (also illegal).

Steroids have legitimate medical uses, including recovery from injuries. Considering that athletic training consists of breaking down and building back up muscles, it's no wonder that athletes found that using steroids helped improve training results. An important thing to remember is that simply taking a steroid does virtually nothing alone. The athlete still has to work to get results.

Steroids can certainly be abused, but I think the harmful effects of lower amounts has been grossly exaggerated. Considering that we give athletes a pass on so many things, including things that are harmful, I have a hard time feeling outrage over an baseball player trying to maximize his ability, even if it is through chemical means. There are plenty of things in this world worthy of outrage. I don't think controlled steroid use is one of them.
3:08 PM Jan 31st
 
hankgillette
I really don't understand all of the (what I consider) sanctimonious posturing of people over steroids. Nobody that I know of has suggested punishing players who used 'greenies', which was apparently more widespread than steroid use.

Nor has anyone advocated punishing players who did things that actively hurt their performance. Many players years back were smokers. They undoubtedly would have performed better had they not smoked. By smoking they robbed fans of their best performance.

Nobody advocates punishing Mickey Mantle for being a drunk. As great as he was, he would have been better had he stayed sober (he also would have been better had Joe DiMaggio not been such an asshole, but that's another story).

Nobody advocated punishing Babe Ruth for being a glutton, and drinking in an era where alcohol was illegal, or patronizing hookers (also illegal).

Steroids have legitimate medical uses, including recovery from injuries. Considering that athletic training consists of breaking down and building back up muscles, it's no wonder that athletes found that using steroids helped improve training results. An important thing to remember is that simply taking a steroid does virtually nothing alone. The athlete still has to work to get results.

Steroids can certainly be abused, but I think the harmful effects of lower amounts has been grossly exaggerated. Considering that we give athletes a pass on so many things, including things that are harmful, I have a hard time feeling outrage over an baseball player trying to maximize his ability, even if it is through chemical means. There are plenty of things in this world worthy of outrage. I don't think controlled steroid use is one of them.
2:56 PM Jan 31st
 
monahan
MarisFan61: " I think it's very likely that in the future, and probably before long, we will be able to do that at least much better than we can right now, if not perfectly -- "

That right there seems to be the crux of it, at least for me. Sure, you can start to piece together "cases" against all those who you think used... but it will never be perfect. There is guaranteed to be players that slip past unnoticed, and then whom come to light after the fact. Also there are guaranteed to be players that get "convicted" unjustly & incorrectly. And I think that's what makes it untenable, regardless of whether you wait to see it play out or not.

Ultimately, it all seems like a colossal waste of energy to service some sliding scale of morality, but that's a personal opinion.
12:28 AM Jan 31st
 
MarisFan61
.....and she hosted SNL last week, did a lot of shtik about that role, sang a bit -- and (I thought) was quite good. Somewhere between Slim Whitman and Dolly Parton. :-)
10:00 PM Jan 21st
 
ventboys
This is probably the stupidest aside ever, but Paltrow can sing. She has a number one song on her resume, "Cruisin'", a duet with Huey Lewis on the soundtrack from the movie, "Duets". I haven't seen the new movie yet, where she sings again. Did she suck?
1:51 PM Jan 21st
 
Bucky
The whole thing just reminds me again why I have a platonic man-crush on Bill James. But what I think I love most, goofily, are the mobster nick-names!
10:39 AM Jan 21st
 
clarkshu
I just want to know if the "Mob Family Nickname" was just a setup for Fred McGriff.
1:57 AM Jan 21st
 
MarisFan61
^^ It's easy to mock something when you distort it, don't try to understand it, or don't care. ^^
10:23 PM Jan 20th
 
rgregory1956
Thanks, Maris Fan, your idea of using "forensic sabermetrics" has convinced me that Jose Bautista used this past year, Cal Ripken used his entire career (how else to explain his never missing a game), Koufax started using in 1962 and Babe Ruth used his entire career.
6:35 PM Jan 20th
 
bjames
Why would I wait to tell you tomorrow, what I am certain of today?
4:53 PM Jan 20th
 
jdw
Was wrong on Rafey being tough to catch. :)

Looking back an an earlier piece, Keith Hernandez would have slotted in next to McGwire:

289-120 (.707)
+169
374 WSV

Perhaps less of a long shot at getting into the HOF than Olerud: played in NY, the MVP, matches Olerud with the two WS wins but played for a far more famous team, and remains a celeb thanks to those annoying commercials.

But more of a long shot than Mattingly: he's not even on the ballot, and there is no push behind him at them moment.
1:48 PM Jan 20th
 
MarisFan61
Bill: Let me take the opportunity to ask you this:

As you say (in the McGwire comment), "....trying to draw a line between steroid users and non-steroid users requires more sophistication than is ultimately possible in the collective thought of a group of people." How can you confidently say "ultimately"? I think it's very likely that in the future, and probably before long, we will be able to do that at least much better than we can right now, if not perfectly -- via admissions and accounts by people in baseball, greater medical knowledge about the effects and performance patterns seen from PED's, investigative journalism and history, and, yes, "forensic sabermetrics."

Why wouldn't you want to wait a bit on that?
1:16 PM Jan 20th
 
 
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