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Overrated

July 3, 2008

Years ago I used to work for Bill. We had a lot of projects going that didn’t reach fulfillment. One of these was to find some way quantify “overrated” and “underrated” players, based on some sort of ratio between a player’s Win Shares and the various honors he received during his career. The project never went anywhere at the time, which was about 2003.  I was eight years old at the time; Bill was about 25. Anyway, I’ve since picked it back up, and I believe I have a system that works, both statistically and intuitively. I’ve only done non-pitchers so far; pitchers will need their own system.

We begin with a number I’m just calling “Value.” It is simply a player’s positive Win Shares Above Average (WSAA), minus five. I got the WSAA file from Dave Studeman at Hardball Times… Basically, I counted a player’s WSAA, but I didn’t include any negative figures. They give you awards for positive performances, and they don’t take them away when you have a bad year, so it didn’t make sense to include the negative years. I subtracted five so guys with relatively low scores didn’t figure too prominently in the list.

 

I appear to have explained that very poorly, but you’re smart people and you’ll figure it out.  Anyway, the other statistic is “Award Points.” For every Positive WSAA in history (WSAA+, I’ll call it), there is exactly one Award Point. Award Points are calculated as follows:

 

MVP Award Shares times 22,

plus All Star years times 6.5,

plus All Star starting years times 2,

plus Gold Gloves times 1.5,

plus Silver Sluggers.

 

For the years in which there were two All-Star games, I’m only counting one. If you made both teams, you only get credited for one All-Star year, the same as a person who made only one team. If you started one or both games, you get credited the same, for one start.

 

Anyway, each player has two scores—his “performance” score, based on Win Shares, and his “awards” score, based on this stuff I outlined before.   If the awards score is substantially higher than the performance score, the player is considered to have been overrated.  If the performance score is higher, he was underrated.  

 

I excluded anyone from the study who was born before 1914, since All Star games and MVPs and so forth weren’t as available to them. This isn’t a perfect system, and there are plenty of other awards I didn’t include (e.g. Sporting News awards). But these are the big awards, and there is a one-to-one ratio between Value and Award Points. And more importantly, the results make sense.

 

Finally, I came up with a score. I tried this a number of ways, but I settled on the following:

 

(Award Points minus Value), squared

Times

(Award Points minus Value) divided by WSAA+ [the original WSAA+, not Value]

Divided by 10.

 

I found many, many interesting bits of information in this study, but I’ll give you the main results first. I’ve filtered out the players whose Value and Award Points, added together, equal less than 40.

 

Top 20 Most Overrated (or Over-rewarded) Players born since 1914:

 

1.      Bobby Richardson

2.      Frank Malzone

3.      Luis Aparicio

4.      Brooks Robinson

5.      Larry Bowa

6.      Don Kessinger

7.      Steve Garvey

8.      Cal Ripken Jr.

9.      Bill Mazeroski

10.  Nellie Fox

11.  Ozzie Smith

12.  Marty Marion

13.  Sandy Alomar Jr.

14.  Eddie Miller

15.  Red Schoendienst

16.  Ivan Rodriguez

17.  Jim Rice

18.  Ichiro Suzuki

19.  Rod Carew

20.  Benito Santiago

 

Richardson has a value of zero (4 WSAA+, minus 5, rounded to zero since it was a negative). Yet he has 72 Award Points thanks to 7 All Star years (1 start), 5 Gold Gloves, and 0.77 MVP shares. He has exactly the same number of Award Points as Tim Raines, who has a value of 127. He’s got more Award Points than tons of players, including a number of Hall of Famers.

 

Aparicio is the second-worst Hall of Famer in the study (after Mazeroski). Aparicio has a Value of just 17, which puts him behind such non-luminaries as Dave Cash, Travis Fryman, and Leo Cardenas. (Maz is at 10, trailing the likes of Johnny Ray, Dave Hollins, and Mike Ivie.) Aparicio is just the 481st best player born since 1914, based on this study, yet he’s the 50th most-awarded.

 

Brooks Robinson and Cal Ripken are the 7th and 8th most-awarded players… The moral of the story is, if you want to be overrated, play in Baltimore . Incidentally, Ripken is so overrated in large part due to his 17 All Star Game starts, which is more than anyone else in baseball history (nobody has 16, and only Aaron and Carew have 15).

 

Top 20 Most Underrated (or Under-rewarded) Players born since 1914:

 

1.      Darrell Evans

2.      Gene Tenace

3.      Brian Giles

4.      Bobby Abreu

5.      Jimmy Wynn

6.      Eddie Mathews

7.      Ryan Klesko

8.      Roy White

9.      Gene Woodling

10.  Jeff Heath

11.  Willie McCovey

12.  Rick Monday

13.  Oscar Gamble

14.  Edgardo Alfonzo

15.  Don Buford

16.  Ray Lankford

17.  Thome, Jim

18.  Norm Cash,

19.  J.D Drew

20.  Tim Raines

 

Evans, Tenace, Giles, and Abreu are way, way ahead of everyone else. A few other lists:

 

Top 10 Most-Awarded Players:

 

1.      Barry Bonds

2.      Willie Mays

3.      Stan Musial

4.      Hank Aaron

5.      Ted Williams

6.      Mickey Mantle

7.      Cal Ripken

8.      Brooks Robinson

9.      Mike Schmidt

10.  Joe DiMaggio

 

Top 10 Best Players (by Value):

 

1.          Bonds

2.          Mays

3.          Mantle

4.          Williams

5.          Aaron

6.          Musial

7.          DiMaggio

8.          Joe Morgan

9.          Frank Robinson

10.      Schmidt

 

It’s clear that middle infield glove men tend to be overrated, and guys with high secondary averages tend to be underrated. Either that, or the Win Shares system has it wrong and Bobby Richardson and Luis Aparicio deserved a lot more Win Shares. In either case, the prototype of an overrated player in my study is a Gold Glove fielder with a .290 batting average and a .150 secondary average, while the prototype of an underrated player is a .240 hitter who hits for power and draws 100 walks a year. The top 20 overrated won 91 Gold Gloves, and the top 20 underrated won just one. But it’s not only that… The Underrateds, who are supposed to be the offensive types, won a grand total of two Silver Sluggers. Their Overrated counterparts won 18. I made up an all-overrated and an all-underrated team:

 

Overrated

 

 

Pos

Name

Val

AP

C

Sandy Alomar Jr.

7

55

1B

Steve Garvey

41

143

2B

Bobby Richardson

0

72

3B

Frank Malzone

0

57

SS

Luis Aparicio

17

125

LF

Jim Rice

59

131

CF

Kirby Puckett

73

148

RF

Ichiro Suzuki

41

105

 

 

Underrated

 

 

Pos

Name

Val

AP

C

Gene Tenace

79

10

1B

Willie McCovey

156

90

2B

Edgardo Alfonzo

57

12

3B

Darrell Evans

89

17

SS

Robin Yount

114

67

LF

Ryan Klesko

60

7

CF

Jimmy Wynn

103

35

RF

Brian Giles

89

17

 

In terms of value, the Underrateds win easily, 747-238, but in terms of Award Points, the Overrateds dominate, 836-255. But man, I’ll get crucified if I say that Ryan Klesko is the equal of Jim Rice, or that Brian Giles is more than twice the player Ichiro is. Not that I believe it’s that extreme, but still… the differences are huge.

 

I was really surprised to see that Ron Santo shows up as being neither overrated nor underrated – he got what he deserved, and he deserved what he got. Santo accumulated 96 value points (a borderline Hall of Fame figure), but he received 101 award points: 9 All Star games (4 starts), 5 Gold Gloves, and 1.23 MVP shares. He was better-rewarded than Duke Snider and Willie McCovey, and he’s way ahead of Robin Yount and Paul Molitor. He may be getting cheated out of a Cooperstown plaque, but in his own time, he was rated just fine.

 

Same thing for Alan Trammell. He had 81 value, 75 award. Yes, he should have won the MVP in 1987, and he should have started at least a couple All Star games (he was a 6-time All Star, but he had zero starts). But that’s partially offset by the fact that he was an undeserving All Star in 1985, and he won the Gold Glove in 1984 despite playing only 114 games in the field. Plus, in the ’87 MVP vote, while Trammell didn’t win, he did have a 0.79 MVP share, which is huge. All things considered, Trammell was properly perceived as the fine player that he was.

 

Another surprise was Tony Perez. I thoroughly expected Perez to be on the overrated list, but he’s not. In fact, Perez was actually mildly underrated in his own day. His value was 79, but he had only 68 award points. In other words, he was less rewarded in his own day than Bobby Richardson, and way less than fellow (and inferior) 1970s NL first baseman Steve Garvey.

 

Several all-time greats got exactly what they deserved: Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Frank Robinson, Frank Thomas, Willie Stargell. Ted Simmons was not really underrated; Lou Brock was not really overrated. As expected, Derek Jeter has been overrated, 82 value to 119 award... but, lo and behold, Alex Rodriguez is even more overrated, 163 value to 210 award.

 

Catchers tend to be a bit overrated. In my master list (not the shortened list I’ve been using above), catchers have a value of 2975, and they’ve won 3597 award points, a four-point difference on average. Does Win Shares underrate catchers? I don’t think that’s what it is... Think about it. Berra. An all-time great, obviously, but he had almost four full MVP shares, which is an enormous total. He made 15 All Star games, and he started 10 of them. Altogether, he had 155 value points, but he received a whopping 205 award points. Bench is basically the same story, though his value isn’t as high as Berra’s. Piazza, too: he’s rated equal to Bench, and it’s tempting to see him as underrated because he never won an MVP. But Piazza’s MVP share is huge, 3.15, and he started 10 All Star games. Likewise Ivan Rodriguez: great player, but a dozen All Star starts? That ties him with Bonds, Mantle, and Ted Williams, and puts him ahead of all but five players in baseball history. It’s a bit much.

 

Plus, there are plenty of other catchers who are underrated, but they’re easy to forget. Gene Tenace, Joe Ferguson, Johnny Romano, Tom Haller, and more recently, players like Jason Kendall and Joe Mauer. All told, I don’t think there is some sort of inherent bias in the Win Shares system against catchers. If anything, it’s the way awards are given – there are All Star spots for every position, but catchers tend to play fewer games, thus accumulating less value. So you have guys who might contribute less, relative to players at other positions, being rewarded with All Star spots. Also, catchers have done really well in MVP voting. Think of Berra’s three awards. In 1951, he created 92 runs. Ted Williams created 137 runs and finished thirteenth. It’s easier to make a case for Berra in ’54, but in 1955 he batted .272 with 27 homers, 90 Runs Created, while his teammate Mantle hit .306 with 37 homers and 148 Runs Created. And Mantle didn’t get a single first place vote.

 

Across town, Campanella was winning his trio of MVPs. In ’55, when he won his third, Campy played in just 123 games. He barely qualified for the batting title. Meanwhile, Duke Snider had a monster year, Ernie Banks hit 44 homers as a shortstop, Willie Mays hit .319 with 51 homers and didn’t get even one first place vote... You get the point.

 

Another interesting tidbit: The mean birth year for the top 50 underrated players is 1949. The mean birth year for their overrated counterparts is 1945. I don’t know if it means anything.

 

Unpacking that a bit… There were 66 players in the study born between 1914 and 1923, and they had 3604 award points (an average of 55). The rest of the decades of birth:

 

1914-1923: 55 players, 3604 Award Points (66 avg.)

1924-1933: 45 players, 3164 Award Points (70 avg.)

1934-1943: 67 players, 4583 Award Points (67 avg.)

1944-1953: 73 players, 4263 Award Points (58 avg.)

1954-1963: 71 players, 4379 Award Points (62 avg.)

1964-1973: 74 players, 4589 Award Points (62 avg.)

 

So players born before World War II tended to have more Award Points. (Remember, I’m only considering players who had 40 Award Points+Val right now.) What’s causing this – expansion, a flaw in my system, or something else? How about another angle:

 

1914-1923: 3604 AP, 3292 Val (+6 avg. difference, i.e., overrated)

1924-1933: 3164 AP, 2705 Val (+10 avg. diff.)

1934-1943: 4583 AP, 4441 Val (+2 avg. diff.)

1944-1953: 4263 AP, 4280 Val (0 avg. diff. – on average, they got what they deserved)

1954-1963: 4379 AP, 4129 Val (+4 avg. diff.)

1964-1973: 4589 AP, 4973 Val (-5 avg. diff. – the first truly underrated generation)

 

Now, on the whole, the players in this sample are +2 on average, i.e., slightly overrated. This is obviously counterbalanced by the players who were excluded from the sample – the guys who had less than 40 AP+Val. In general, though, players whose primes have come in the 1990s and 2000s have found it more difficult to earn awards than players of past generations. I would think this is due to expansion – right?

 

Anyway, it’s clear that there is more exploring to be done here.

 
 

COMMENTS (14 Comments, most recent shown first)

George.Rising
Wow, what a great article! Taking vague terms like "underrated" and "overrated" and defining and quantifying them is exactly why I love this website! And honestly, I also like that the players I generally (and vaguely) consider most overrated and most underrated line up closely with your results.

My only quibble is: Why didn't you include the numbers you calculated for all players in this article? (I know you do for some of the players listed.)

Thanks again for a really cool article!
3:36 PM Apr 8th
 
stewartjk1
Hi, I like the article but I think you have a basic flaw here with respect to middle infielders, because you are including All Star election as an award. Luis Aparicio made 13 All Star teams and Richardson made 8 (in a 12 year career) which accounts for their high "award" totals. Yes they got some MVP votes but they were deserved: Richardson was #2 in 1962 when he led the league in hits and singles, and the Yanks won the pennant. Aparicio was #2 in 1959 when he was top 10 in runs, hits, SB's, and the White Sox won the pennant. My point is, you are calling them overrated in large part due to their All Star elections - but All Star nods are not a general referendum on the worth of a player, they are BY POSITION. If you told me that Aparicio was voted onto 13 All Star teams over Mantle or Yaz, then that would indeed prove Aparicio was overrated. However, 13 All Star selections could just mean (and in this case, probably does mean) that it was not a particularly strong time for shortstops so he got selected a lot..... Consider reworking your analysis without All Star selection as a factor and see if this eliminates your middle infielder bias.
2:19 PM Aug 6th
 
800redsox9
Great work!
6:37 PM Jul 10th
 
tangotiger
Matt, good job. What you did at the end, by looking at eras, is good. You should do it by position as well. Just because you created a formula doesn't mean it's not biased. With all those infielders in the overrated list, it's possible that your formula is biased against infielders.

Since your formula is a hodgepodge of things with arbitrary weights and whatnot, it's difficult to see where the bias may lie. But, you have to prove to us that it is not biased before we can accept it (and not up to us to show that it may be biased).
7:08 AM Jul 9th
 
enamee
DiMaggio had 214 value points, 222 award. He had 5.43 MVP shares, 13 All Star games, and 9 AS starts. His value, 214, is the 7th-highest in the study, equal to Joe Morgan and a bit ahead of Frank Robinson and Mike Schmidt.

In terms of his being overrated... I suspect this is partially a perception today, as opposed to in his own time. Ted Williams, in a longer career, had 276 award points. Mantle had 257, Musial 311, Yogi 205. In that context, 222 for DiMaggio seems very reasonable. To put Ripken and Brooks Robinson in some perspective, both were awarded more than DiMaggio - just a bit more, but still, that they would even be close to him is ridiculous.

Of course, I've limited this study to about 6 honors. If we counted Sporting News awards, magazine covers, and published biographies, Simon and Garfunkel songs, then sure, DiMaggio might come out more overrated. Someone could certainly expand on this study and take those things into account, and I think we'd get some very interesting results.
10:42 AM Jul 8th
 
3for3
Is there a way we can see all of the players in the study? One in particular I am cuious about is Joe D. I always felt he was overrated.

Danny
8:48 PM Jul 7th
 
enamee
Responding to Mike's comment about Gold Gloves... They were a very, very small factor. The guys who won lots of GGs were overrated not because of those but because of their MVP and All Star success. Ozzie made, I think, 15 All Star games, and started 11. If he had made the 7 or 8 he deserved, rather than 15, he wouldn't be so overrated.
1:04 PM Jul 7th
 
mikeclaw
One thing that makes me uncomfortable with your formula is that there are a lot of defensive specialists (Ozzie, Aparicio, Brooks) who gained a lot of "award points" because they won a string of Gold Gloves. Those award points reflect specifically on defense, not on the player's entire package. So if a specialist wins a lot of awards for his specialty, that doesn't mean he's overrated as a player; it means that he is being recognized for his excellence in one specific element of the game.

12:17 PM Jul 7th
 
birtelcom
I agree with evanecurb: this study offers evidence for what I've come to believe with high confidence -- by failing to distinguish between replacement level offensive performance of players on the left and right sides of the defensive spectrum, Win Shares underestimates the real win value of middle infielders. Because teams need players with the skill to play short and second, because the available pool of such players is limited (compared to the pool of players who can play less demanding defensive positions), and because baseball rules require such players to take turns at bat with about the same frequency as outfielders and first basemen, a decent hitting middle infielder is in general more valuable to his team in terms of offensive win value than a comparable hitting first baseman. Bill quite explicitly rejected this idea in formulating Win Shares -- in the book he says essentially that a run created is a run created regardless of what position the player plays, which is true but misses the point. As a result, I would argue that Matthew's fascinating study shows awards voters have not fallen into the same error as Win Shares, and are properly recognizing that a shortstop who creates X runs is more valuable in terms of offensive contribution to his team than a first baseman who creates X runs, because it would so much more difficult to find a replacement shortstop who can create X runs than a first baseman who can do so.
11:51 PM Jul 5th
 
evanecurb
Very interesting article. A couple of things jump out at me: Since outfielders are underrepresented on the overrated list and middle infielders are overrepresented, I think either (a) there is a flaw in the win shares methodology that undervalues middle infielders and overvalues outfielders or (b) there is a flaw in traditional baseball thinking about the value of having good fielders at 2b and ss. If the win shares method probably does not adjust for offensive contribution by position, then the flaw is in the design there. A replacement level outfielder contributes more offense than a replacement level second baseman or shortstop, and that needs to be accounted for in the methodology.

As a lifelong Orioles fan, I KNEW that Brooks Robinson was overrated. The guy was not a very good hitter. Ripken probably was not as overrated as the list would imply, as he falls victim to the methodology discussed above.
10:22 PM Jul 5th
 
wovenstrap
I really enjoyed this. The method really seems accurate and you appeared to be judicious in your treatment. I particularly love that Jim Rice and Roy White appeared on the two lists ... Bill wrote about them explicitly in the most recent Historical Abstract.
9:01 PM Jul 4th
 
johnkzufall
Catchers may tend to have more award points because someone has to start the All-Star game regardless of whether anyone deserves it.

Similar idea with middle infielders. I like this method for comparing players of the same position.
8:53 PM Jul 4th
 
3for3
Now, on the whole, the players in this sample are +2 on average, i.e., slightly overrated. This is obviously counterbalanced by the players who were excluded from the sample – the guys who had less than 40 AP+Val. In general, though, players whose primes have come in the 1990s and 2000s have found it more difficult to earn awards than players of past generations. I would think this is due to expansion – right?


Sure it does. Perhaps you need to give more points for everything post 1961.

Another note. Not sure how to add this in, but you left out the most important rating for the great player; the Hall of Fame. This would make it inaccurate for ineligible players, but you could have 2 scales, if you wanted.

3for3



1:29 PM Jul 4th
 
hazbin
Middle infielders are difficult to judge, it seems to me - especially when they don't hit for high average. I always thought Burleson was a key person in the sox teams of a few decades ago. And having lived in Baltimore and seen Brooks play, it is a puzzle to see him score so badly. Brooks is also anecdotally called one of the great clutch players - though if memory served, Bill debunked that years ago. Where does clutchness figure in your ratings?
9:30 AM Jul 4th
 
 
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