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Bagwell and Thomas

September 9, 2008

Jeff Bagwell and Frank Thomas were both born on May 27, 1968. They both won MVP awards in 1994. And based on Similarity Scores, Bagwell’s most-similar player is Thomas, and Thomas’ most-similar player is Bagwell. You can make the argument that Bagwell is better than Thomas or Thomas is better than Bagwell, but you can’t escape the fact that they’re very close.

Yet the other day, on this website, Sean Kates asserted without equivocation, “Thomas is a much better player than Bagwell.”

Uh, really? Much better? Let’s see…

Bagwell’s career line is .297/.408/.540. Thomas’ is .302/.420/.557.

Bagwell had 1,788 runs created. Thomas has an even 2,000. That’s 8.1 runs created per game for Bagwell, 8.8 for Thomas.

Bagwell’s offensive winning percentage is .721; Thomas’ is .734. Put in terms of a 162-game season, that’s a 117-45 record for Bagwell and a 119-43 record for Thomas.

Any way you slice it, Thomas was better, as a hitter. He hit for a higher average, drew more walks, and had more power. But he’s not that much better. Oddly, it’s Bagwell who had the higher highs – Bagwell’s career highs in batting average, doubles, triples, homers, walks, runs scored, and slugging are all better than Thomas’ highs.

Of course, as great a hitter as he’s been, Thomas is pretty much exclusively a hitter. Bagwell has significant advantages in baserunning and defense. He stole 202 bases in his career, at a respectable 72% rate. He also won a Gold Glove and had a very good defensive reputation. Thomas has never been a threat on the basepaths (32 career steals), and he’s always been a lousy defensive player. Bagwell played first based in over 98% of his career games. Thomas was at first in only 42% of his games, and was his team’s primary first baseman in just six seasons.

Bagwell had 387 career Win Shares. At the moment, Thomas is at 405.

Bagwell had 146 Win Shares Above Average (WSAA). Thomas has 157, give or take a couple.

In his five best seasons, Bagwell had Win Share totals of 41, 37, 32, 30, and 30 (172 total).

In his five best seasons, Thomas had Win Share totals of 39, 34, 34, 33, and 32 (170 total).

Bagwell’s five best WSAA seasons: 23, 18, 18, 13, 12 (84 total).

Thomas’ five best WSAA seasons: 23, 16, 16, 15, 15 (85 total). 

Bottom line, Thomas beats Bagwell in hitting by a slim margin. Bagwell beats Thomas in everything else by a wide margin. Given that the bulk of their value is on offense, as an overall player, Thomas might – might – have a slight advantage. But Bagwell was nearly as great, and was a much more well-rounded player. If I had to choose between the two in 1990, knowing full well what they’d do in their careers, I’d probably take Bagwell.

The notion that Frank Thomas is a “much better player” than Jeff Bagwell is patently absurd, akin to saying that Mays was “much better” than Mantle. Thomas and Bagwell are about as close as two all-time greats can be. They both belong in the Hall of Fame.

 
 

COMMENTS (10 Comments, most recent shown first)

mikewright
Did you adjust for park effects? Remember that Bagwell started his career in the Astrodome.
2:16 PM Jan 13th
 
DaveFleming
Whoa...I just came across this.

What's really funny is I almost wrote this exact article, Matt. I went so far as to list their Win Shares by age and then I sort of forgot about it.
6:09 PM Sep 17th
 
evanecurb
Matthew:

I had forgotten about Bagwell's injury. 1994 was a long time ago. The funny thing is, that when I think about that year, I remembered Bagwell having an outstanding season but had completely forgotten about Thomas having possibly his best year also. The things I remember when I think about '94, in addition to Bagwell, are (1) Matt Williams had a shot at Maris' record, but I don't remember how many HRs he had (43 - I looked); (2) Tony Gwynn was hitting .390 (didn't look and didn't check); (3) Montreal was in first place and looking very strong (4) the ChiSox were in first place and on their way to having their best season since 1917.
10:32 PM Sep 10th
 
chuck
I looked at how Bagwell and Thomas did each September/October in the years when their teams were in a division or wild card race. The amazing short answer is that neither of them had even one bad September in those years.
Bagwell had nine seasons when the Astros were contending as of Sept. 1st. '95-99, and 2001-04. His worst showing was in '04: .268/.371/.491 (Sept./Oct.). He had an .899 ops in '96 (Astrodome), but in all the rest of those years his ops in the last month ranged from .915 to 1.209.

Thomas had eight seasons when his teams were in contention (and where he wasn't hurt in the last month): '90-91, '93, '96-97, '00, '03 and '06 (A's). His worst showing was an .882 OPS in '03 (.267/.382/.500). Every other one of those Septembers he managed an ops from .912 to 1.183. How close can you get? Actually his last month of '06, with the A's, may have been the most impressive: 11 homers, 35 rbi, and a .636 slg. pct at age 38.

Neither of them was so consisent in the postseason. Bagwell was in 9 postseason series, though in the last three (2005) of these I don't think he was very healthy and was relegated to a lot of pinch-hitting or dh. For the other six postseasons, he had two good series and four very substandard ones.
Thomas likewise was hit and miss in the playoffs, with two good postseason series and two awful ones.
Seems like no matter how you look at these two they come up close.
4:38 PM Sep 10th
 
chuck
I looked at how Bagwell and Thomas did each September/October in the years when their teams were in a division or wild card race. The amazing short answer is that neither of them had even one bad September in those years.
Bagwell had nine seasons when the Astros were contending as of Sept. 1st. '95-99, and 2001-04. His worst showing was in '04: .268/.371/.491 (Sept./Oct.); but remember this was in the Astrodome. He had an .899 ops in '96, but in all the rest of those years his ops in the last month ranged from .915 to 1.209.

Thomas had eight seasons when his teams were in contention (and where he wasn't hurt in the last month): '90-91, '93, '96-97, '00, '03 and '06 (A's). His worst showing was an .882 OPS in '03 (.267/.382/.500). Every other one of those Septembers he managed an ops from .912 to 1.183. How close can you get? Actually his last month of '06, with the A's, may have been the most impressive: 11 homers, 35 rbi, and a .636 slg. pct at age 38.

Neither of them was so consisent in the postseason. Bagwell was in 9 postseason series, though in the last three (2005) of these I don't think he was very healthy and was relegated to a lot of pinch-hitting or dh. For the other six postseasons, he had two good series and four very substandard ones.
Thomas likewise was hit and miss in the playoffs, with two good postseason series and two awful ones.
Seems like no matter how you look at these two they come up close.
4:36 PM Sep 10th
 
enamee
Bagwell actually got hurt right before the strike in '94, and he wouldn't have played the rest of the year. It's ironic that the strick basically gave him the NL MVP award.
2:14 PM Sep 10th
 
evanecurb
Of course they both belong in the Hall of Fame. As an aside, look at their '94 seasons. OPS + of 213 and 211, Thomas .353/.487/.729, Bagwell .368/.451/.750. Too bad about the strike that year. Bags adjusted to 162 games projects to 57 HRs and 170 RBI.
10:55 AM Sep 10th
 
Trailbzr
I hope no one who believes in astrology notices this.
7:32 AM Sep 10th
 
Richie
Oh, and Namee is clearly enough correct that I predict few reader comments. Just give in, Kates. Be a man. Sabermetricly speaking.
10:40 PM Sep 9th
 
Richie
Awwriiight! A catfight between Bill James Online authors. 2 bucks on the religious dude!
10:38 PM Sep 9th
 
 
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