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Threes and Fours

October 15, 2008

            Here’s a couple of stupid ideas to enliven your morning.  First, what about a four-point field goal in football?

 

            I’m sure I’m not the first person to suggest something like this, but here’s my idea.   The goal posts in the NFL are 18 feet, 6 inches wide. . ..222 inches wide.   Suppose that you take the middle third of that, and create a “box” in the center of the goal posts which is a 74-inch square, essentially a six-foot square.    Two rules:

            1)  If the ball bounces off the face of the grillwork (as opposed to the regular goal posts), it counts as a regular field goal.

            2)  If the ball goes through the box, from a distance of 40 yards or more, it counts for four points.

            Six points for a touchdown, four for a field goal. . .wouldn’t this encourage coaches just to take the field goal?

            No, it wouldn’t.  First of all, as you know very well, it’s really seven or eight points for a touchdown, not six.  Second, only about 10% of field goals would count for four points.   If you’re inside the 20, the four-point field goal isn’t a realistic option.  If you’re outside the 20, the four-point field goal isn’t an option you can count on.   It’s too difficult an option for coaches to base decisions on the assumption that they can execute that.    Logically, perhaps, coaches should go for two after a touchdown much more often than they do.   They don’t because it is difficult enough to get the two that coaches don’t feel they can count on it.    It is hard enough to kick a 40-yard field goal.   Kicking a 40-year field goal inside a box that is a third the width of the goal posts and of limited height. . .it’s too hard.   When you can do it it’s good, but you can’t count on it.

            People won’t go for the field goal more than they otherwise would, but what they will do is back the kicker up a couple of yards deeper than normal to let him take a shot at the bonus point. 

            I see this rule as having the following benefits:

            1)  It adds pressure and excitement to the kick.   A relatively routine 40-yard field goal becomes a little bit more of an adventure.

            2)  It adds a dimension to the kicker’s game.  

            3)  It adds a strategic decision for the coach.   Do I take a 35-yard field goal, or do I back him up and try to add one?  

            Late in the game, it will be obvious from the score whether you do back the kicker up or whether you don’t.   There will be situations, late in the game and down four, where coaches will back up the field goal kicker 15 yards behind where he normally would be because they have to have that fourth point. 

            But earlier in the game, it won’t be so obvious whether you back him up or not.  Would you rather have a 34-yard field goal which can only go for three, or a 40-yard field goal try that could be four but would probably be three?  It depends on how much confidence you have in your kicker.   You have to make a decision.

           

            I think it would improve the game.  I also think there isn’t a snowball’s chance in Panama that the NFL is going to consider such a rule change, which is an interesting thought in itself.   One of the things that happened to baseball about 1955-1965, that caused the game to drop behind the NFL in certain popularity indexes, is that the game got calcified by the belief that it was perfect.   “We have a perfect game”, baseball in essence decided, “therefore we don’t need to consider any changes.”   This allowed things like excessive pitching changes, endless throws to first base, and bats that shattered into splinters to get established in the game, because. .well, we have a perfect game.  They didn’t regulate those things in 1935, so we don’t need to regulate them now.

            I have always somewhat envied the NFL, which has a more practical approach to its rules.   Does this make the game better, or not?   If it makes the game better to widen the hash marks, we widen them.   If it makes the game better to allow a team to try to for two points after a touchdown, we’ll allow it.

            But here I realize that the NFL, too, is becoming calcified by its success.   They’re not going to consider a four-point field goal, regardless of the merits of the idea, because. . .well, they didn’t do it in 1965, did they?   In a sense this is a re-assuring thought.

 

            My other stupid idea for the morning is the three-man starting rotation.   I get asked sometimes whether baseball will ever go back to the four-man starting rotation.   What about a three-man rotation?

            My goal in this little article is to convince you that this is actually a workable plan.   Suppose that your policy was that the starting pitcher always came out of the game

            1)  After five innings, or

            2)  After 90 pitches,

            Whichever comes first.  

            If you do that, you can use a three-man starting rotation.   Using a three-man rotation, the top starters would start about 52 times a season. . .in theory 54, but with rain delays, double-headers, etc., 52 is a lot more likely than 54.  

            How many innings would a pitcher pitch, working on that plan?   If he lasted five innings every game, 260 innings.  I ran some simulations on it.   A starting pitcher would leave the game because he reached the 90-pitch limit in the first five innings between 8 and 15 times a season, and would pitch 240 to 249 innings with great regularity.   In my simulations, the workload very, very rarely went under 240 innings or as high as 250.   It locked in on 244, 245.    Is that doable?

            Of course it’s doable.   I’ve written this before, but it’s relevant here, so. . . .my understanding of what happened in history is that, between 1975 and 1990, managers made two changes in an effort to reduce injuries to the starting rotation.    First, they switched from a four-man to a five-man rotation.    Second, they imposed pitch limits—pitch limits starting around 135 pitches, and walking down from there. 

            These changes reduced the number of innings pitched by the hardest-working starting pitchers from about 300 innings to about 225 innings.  (Between 1970 and 1975 the one hundred hardest-working pitchers in baseball worked an average of 296.2 innings each.    Between 1995 and 2000, the one hundred hardest-working pitchers in baseball pitched an average of 235.1 innings.)

            In spite of these changes, the gains in starting pitcher injury rates were very modest.   At least one of these changes was useless; maybe both of them were useless, but at least one of them.   The better evidence is on behalf of the pitch limits.   The pitch limits probably accomplished something; the fewer starts probably didn’t.   The reduction in the number of starts came first.   The reduction in the number of pitches per start came about because reducing the number of starts didn’t do anything.  

            It is my argument that pitching 52 games, 245 innings in a season would be less stressful than pitching 33 games, 200 innings.   Why? 

Because the most stressful pitches are those thrown when the pitcher is tired.   Which is more stressful:  Two starts in which a pitcher throws 100 pitches each, or one start in which he throws 141 pitches? 

In modern baseball, one start in which a pitcher throws 141 pitches would be regarded not as twice as stressful as a 100-pitch outing, but something more like ten times as stressful.   But let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that it is twice as stressful. 

If a 141-pitch start is twice as stressful as a 100-pitch start, that implies that the stress from a start is proportional to the square of the number of  pitches thrown; 141 squared is (essentially) the same as 100 squared times two.   

If you assume that the stress from an outing is proportional to the square of innings pitched—which is to say, that you assume that the stress occurs when the pitcher is at or near his fatigue limits—then compare two pitchers.  Pitcher A makes three starts, throwing 97, 105 and 101 pitches.   Pitcher B makes five starts, throwing 83, 72, 90, 66 and 78 pitches.   Compare the stress:

Pitcher A

              97 squared =   9 409

            105 squared =  11 025

            101 squared =  10 321

         Total Stress        30 635

 

 

Pitcher B

            83 squared =   6 889

            72 squared =   5 184

            90 squared =   8 100

            66 squared =   4 356

            78 squared =  6 084

       Total Stress        30 613

 

That’s 389 pitches in five starts for Pitcher B. Assuming he pitches 245 innings in 52 starts, that’s 23.56 innings in five starts, 16.5 pitches per inning times 23.56 innings, that’s 389 pitches.  

            Five starts pitching five innings or 90 pitches are essentially equal to three starts in the current system—but we’re not suggesting a 5-to-3 increase in starts.   We’re suggesting a 52-33 increase in starts; 58%, rather than 67%.  

            Backing off. . .not that long ago, some pitchers pitched 300 innings in a season, and some pitchers were able to do that without injury.    We’re talking here not about 300 innings, but 245—but we’re talking about 245 innings in a much, much less stressful arrangement.   We’re talking about zero pitches a year over the 100-pitch mark.   I simply don’t believe that pitchers couldn’t do that.   They could.

            They could do it, and, within a few years, they would learn to love it.   A starting pitcher working in this pattern would probably have 28 to 36 decisions per season, occasionally as many as 42, whereas in the current system a starting pitcher typically has 20 to 26 decisions per season, occasionally as many as 31.   With more decisions you’d have many more twenty-game winners, and many, many more pitchers going 25-7 or 24-11 or 26-9—records that occured in the 1960s, but haven’t been seen much since then.    One might, occasionally, see a 30-game winner. 

            Of course, starting pitchers would at first be averse to coming out of the game so early.   People are change-averse.   But within a few years, once they realized that they had the opportunity to pitch more innings and rack up more decisions in this system, free agent pitchers would be fighting for the chance.  

            There are other advantages.  Since the bullpen would work every game, essentially four innings every game, the manager would be able to schedule the work of his relievers, rather than bringing them into the game on an as-needs basis.     The modern pitching staff is 12 or 13 pitchers—5 starters, 7 or 8 relievers.  With the more scheduled relief work, this could run with 11 pitchers—3 starters, 8 relievers.   Assuming the starting pitchers pitched 4.7 innings per game, that leaves 700 innings per season for the bullpen.   That’s 88 innings per reliever.   That’s a little more than we get in the current system, but again, it’s not an unrealistic number.  Let’s say that you have three relievers working 2 innings each every third day—54 games, 108 innings each.   That leaves 376 innings for the other five relievers, which is 75 innings apiece.   It’s not a problem, and you’ve gained a slot on your bench for a pinch hitter, a fifth outfielder or a third catcher. 

 

            The other idea, the four-point field goal. . .that’s never going to happen, and I understand why.   If you get every nitwit in the country suggesting rules changes to improve football and you start actually adopting those rules, in twenty years it is no longer football.   I understand that.

            This change. . .it’s got a shot.   There is a logic to it, and sometimes the game forces you to do what you reasonably can do to try to get as much out of your players as you can.   There is a momentum to events; there is an attraction of logic.   In the short run the momentum of habits and training often crushes reason, and keeps us from doing what we could do.   In the long run, history finds the most logical arrangements.  

 

 
 

COMMENTS (32 Comments, most recent shown first)

sokho
A very minor point on a very cold case (I'm reading this article [and comments] in the spring of '09)--the question that occurred to JesseSeg also occurred to me: why would this version of the 3-man rotation (i.e. 52 starts, 245 IP) produce 28-36 decisions for a starter? My first (unsupported) thought would be more like 24-31--still more than than the current 20-26...
12:55 PM Mar 26th
 
mikeclaw
Does the NFL currently allow kickers to stand farther back than the standard seven yards behind the line of scrimmage? If so, more teams should do it on short field goal attempts. Chip shots. If a kicker moves back just three more yards -- 10 yards back instead of seven -- it would be almost impossible to block the kick. So if you're looking at a short field goal, say a 30-yard attempt, why not try it from 33 or 35 yards and negate the chances of getting it blocked?

I've always assumed that it's a rule where the kicker has to stand on a FG attempt, but now I realize that I don't know that for sure.
7:56 AM Oct 28th
 
evanecurb
Richie:

Intuitively, yes, hitters who are more disciplined, i.e. work deeper into counts, will see more pitches per ball in play than hitters who are less disciplined, so eras that feature a higher percentage of disciplined hitters would see a higher number of pitches per ball in play. I just don't think it's a big factor in determining the total number of pitches thrown. More pitches were thrown per inning in 2001 than in 1976 because there were more plate appearances, more walks, and more strikeouts. The number of pitches per plate appearance may have changed but I don't see how the change could be that big a factor. Someone who has the resources to do so could assign higher or lower coefficients for pitches per plate appearance based on Retrosheet data from every year that is available. I guess that is the only way to find out for sure.
11:08 AM Oct 24th
 
JesseSeg
Hi Bill - how can you tell that the pitchers will get that many decisions? Presumably, the decrease in innings pitched in a game increases the probability that the team will lose the lead after the pitcher exits the game with a lead, because there will be more innings available in a season to blow the lead. Is that factored in to the expected 28-36 decisions?
8:28 PM Oct 21st
 
rnotr2
One major hindrance is from the pitchers and their agents. To wit: "You are not going to gamble with my/my player's health for the sake of some pipe dream of yours." If I'm not mistaken, Cole Hamels and his agent consistently squelched any change to his schedule/pitch count in earlier years. As recently as the Dodger series Cole put the kibosh on pitching on 3 days rest.
1:40 PM Oct 21st
 
Richie
I guess that's another reason only good teams lead to innovation that catches on. A bad team that try's something new fails at it 'cuz they're a bad team, folks say "see, it didn't work for the Palookaville Screwups", then go back to doing it the familiar way.
9:36 PM Oct 18th
 
markrice
Bill,

I hate the 5 man rotation - always have, and so I love this idea! Of course with a 90 pitch limit, DiceK would never get past the 3rd inning....
Seriously, I agree that it´s going to happen. there is just no logical foundadtion for the 5 man rotation except that everyone is used to it. Some team, not going anywhere, that has a thin starting rotation will try it and have success.
6:53 PM Oct 18th
 
Richie
Could empirically guesstimate it, I should think. Aside from BBs and Ks, do patient hitters typically see more pitchers than impatient ones, or power hitters than single hitters? If so, then I would think you could extrapolate that to eras with more patience and power.
1:45 PM Oct 18th
 
evanecurb
Richie:

I think you ask a valid question regarding pitch counts for individual batters and individual pitchers, and I don't know the answer. I believe that the vast majority of differential in the number of pitches per at bat is explained by the variables accounted for in the formula, but I can't prove it.
12:52 PM Oct 18th
 
Richie
OK, I've looked at the info on Tango's site and at the Hardball Times stuff.

Apparently Tango (or someone) did count Koufax's pitches, and found out that in more innings he threw the same amount of pitches as today's starters. That is, his innings were pitch-cheaper.

Also I believe Tango did count pitches from some 50s games and found out their PA counts were similar to ours'. I presume this would mean their innings were similar.

I guess the data I'm really curious about is batters' pitch counts, i.e., pitches seen. Even separate from BBs and Ks, did Wade Boggs in a ball-in-play AB see more pitches than Tony Gwynn did in a similar AB? Did Rico Petrocelli in a ball-in-play AB typically see more pitches than Dal Maxvill did? Fred Lynn than Omar Moreno? Nowadays, with many more Petrocellis than Maxvills, Lynns than Morenos and more batters emulating Boggs than Gwynn, I would think it takes many more pitches to get through an inning than it did in the 70s. If so, then so what that Carlton threw more innings than Santana does? Carlton's emptier innings suggest little about how many Santana could be throwing.
10:37 PM Oct 17th
 
Richie
Desperation often does lead to innovation. But only success leads to replication, to others then copying you.
7:20 PM Oct 17th
 
WinShrs
Sir Willam of Lawrence-

I think I've heard this idea floated before of making longer or more difficult field goals worth more points. However, by doing so, you are rewarding the kicker for his skill, but punishing a team that maybe drives the ball 75 yards downfield but can't get it in from the 5. I think the team and the players on the team who were able to drive the ball downfield should get any benefit of the reward, not the kicker who comes on the field for the one play. That having been said, I think a made field goal should still count as three points, no matter what.

-Sir Charles of Littleton
7:18 PM Oct 17th
 
DaveFleming
I frankly don't understand why a major league teams hasn't tried a 3- or 4-man rotation. I mean, what would it hurt the Pirates or the Royals to give something like this a shot? Desperation should lead to innovation, but (excepting the A's), it hardly ever does in baseball.
6:35 PM Oct 17th
 
jollydodger
I feel the biggest argument against your field goal idea, aside from no chance of being adopted, is that in certain situations it promotes teams from not gaining yardage or even losing yardage. Once a team is trying to lose yardage, or travel AWAY from the goal line, the game is at odds with itself. I think its an important thing. Once a team stops from yearning for the goal line like rabid dogs, something is fundamentally wrong.
5:40 PM Oct 17th
 
rnotr2
I have a radical rule change for the NBA - 6 players per side, 2 balls and 4 refs. Thaink about it. Two alley oops at once; a player dribbling two balls at once; more shots to go around; divvying up who plays d and who plays o when each team has a ball; 2 fastbreaks at once. Now that's a highlight reel waiting to happen!
5:40 PM Oct 17th
 
evanecurb
Richie:

Regarding the nuances of estimated pitch counts, I am not sure where precisely the data you are looking for resides. The Tangotiger articles that I refer to can be found at http://www.tangotiger.net/ (SABR 101 section) and the Hardball Times articles are at http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-pitch-counts-hath-wrought/. You will notice in the Tangotiger site that enhancements have been made to the formula, so I may have not been quoting the most accurate version of the pitch count estimator. I am not sure that this research proves or disproves your contention that there are more pitches per at bat now than there were in 1973, but the articles are worth a look. Intuitively, I believe that the most important variables in determining the number of pithes thrown are, in descending order, (1) number of batters faced (2) number of walks (3) number of strikeouts, and (4) number of pitches per at bat. If my assumption is correct, then the variable of which you speak would be the least important factor in determining pitch counts. The most important variable, number of batters faced, is easy to estimate(3*IP + H + BB), while the next two are recorded and not in need of an estimate. What you are suggesting is that the coefficients used in the formula for number of pitches per strikeout (4.8), walk (5.5), and ball in play (3.3) might show significant variance over time. I don't know. I would be interested to see if any research that has been done.
2:51 PM Oct 17th
 
Richie
My understanding is that pitches out of the stretch are also more taxing than full-windup ones.
10:25 PM Oct 16th
 
jrickert
I like the three man rotation idea. It's certainly been employed in the post season, so making it a little less demanding could make it work for a full season. But what if Ned Yost is right and it's not the high-pitch games that hurt a pitcher but the high-pitch innings? There's still so much we don't know about pitch counts and pitcher wear and tear.
9:19 PM Oct 16th
 
Zeth
I'm OK with field goals, but my pet radical rule-change suggestion for the NFL for many years now has been the elimination of punts.

Even as things stand, NFL coaches (and college coaches for that matter) punt far, far too much. 4th and 3 from your own 39 is a situation where a team with a competent offense should try for the first down. 4th and 3 from your opponent's 39 is a TRIVIAL go-for-it, just completely obvious - but most NFL coaches automatically send in the punt team.

I am convinced excessive punting is the single most glaring (and most easily exploitable by a daring team) strategic weakness in high-level football.
6:23 PM Oct 16th
 
Richie
So research shows that that formula works for 1948 and 1968 and 2008?? That a 'working the count' ethos plays out in higher K and W totals, but doesn't appreciatively change how early/late in an at bat the ball typically gets put into play? I find that very difficult to believe, which of course doesn't make it not so.

Where can I find that exact data?
4:20 PM Oct 16th
 
evanecurb
I agree wholeheartedly with Tom Bell on elimination of field goals. They have absolutely nothing to do with the core skills involved in the game. I also would do away with conversions. If baseball were to adopt a concept similar to the field goal, runners could earn 3/7th of a run if, after reaching third base with two outs, they hitthe ball through a stationary target at home plate. After scoring, they would earn an additional 1/7 of a run by hitting a conversion through the target. Seems ridiculous, doesn't it?

As for Bill's idea regarding the four point field goal, I don't like it for the simple reason that it rewards a team that fails to get closer to the goal line.

The three man rotation makes a lot of sense for the reasons Bill cited, and could even save a team a few bucks assuming that number 4 and 5 starters make more money than relievers.

Richie: Historical pitch counts can be estimated by using a formula developed by Tangotiger, which I believe is (3.3*PA + 1.5*SO + 2.2*BB, where PA = 3*IP + H + BB).
Research at The Hardball Times (and probably other places as well) shows that pitch counts of 1970s top starters were much higher than pitch counts of today's starters.
3:37 PM Oct 16th
 
RoelTorres
Other sports have proven that when you reduce the number of quality contributors needed to compete, you open up the playing field to teams with fewer resources.

FIFA World Cup play limits each team to two substitutions. That means that if a country can find a handful of quality players, they can't be swarmed over by a country that produces an unlimited number of useful players.

This is particularly notable in NCAA college hoop. Because you only need five people on the court at all times, finding a player like Adam Morrison can help Gonzaga win a lot of games. Mid-major teams can make deep runs into the tournament if they can find a couple of decent players that can hold their own. The hoop model contrasts strongly with the college football model, where you need to round up about 22 guys to play the game. It's much harder for programs to show up from out of nowhere with that requirement.

If a Major League team needs 3 good starters instead of 5, then more teams can be competitive. It's easier for a franchise to develop three guys than to find five effective pitchers who can retire Major Leaguers on a consistent basis. The path to competitive balance would have shortcuts for teams that don't have the same resources.
3:20 PM Oct 16th
 
BigDaddyG
I am hugely in favor of shifting to the 3 man rotation. If I was a team like the Pirates, I would make the change- it's an inefficiency that can be affordably implemented
12:16 AM Oct 16th
 
THBR
I hesitate to add a comment because I think I know the answer: it would be prohibitively expensive. How about simply increasing the rosters by two spots?

Nah ... that would be prohibitively expensive ....
12:08 AM Oct 16th
 
elricsi
A great idea to try, but pitchers would lose their ever loving minds if they were taken out before the 5th inning with a nice lead. I think they need to come up with a system to divide up the win for each game. Maybe into 3 thirds, you pitch a shutout, you get all 3. You pitch 7 shutout innings, and the closer nails down the final one, then you get 3/3. But if you pitch 4 OK innings, a reliever pitches 2 OK innings, the other 3 are blah, then you get 2/3, and long man gets 1/3. If a starter can get some kind of credit for 4 good innings, then this system becomes possible.
11:48 PM Oct 15th
 
koryio838
I love the basis for the argument of a 3man rotation, however, I would of liked to see some analysis about pitchers throwing on only 2 days rest.
10:51 PM Oct 15th
 
interbang1
Fantastic article. I've liked the idea of three-man rotations since reading a book when I was a kid called "Amazing Baseball Teams" that featured the story of the 1914 Miracle Braves. One of the Braves' Big Three was a guy named... Bill James.
7:07 PM Oct 15th
 
Richie
One thing I think is that we should stop talking about pitchers pitchings 300 innnings back in the 70s without first accounting for how many pitches they actually threw in those innings. It's possible their innings had 10-20% fewer pitches than the innings of today. Let's check, or if the data for doing/estimating such is unavailable, still account for the possibility.

What I idiosyncratically favor is the 4-day rotation. 45 starts per year for your top 3, in stretches where the 4th guy gets skipped he can help out in the pen.
6:49 PM Oct 15th
 
tbell
Regarding field goals, I think football would be a better game if they were eliminated entirely. Placekicking may have seemed a special, impressive talent in 1910.

But not now. Now, a field goal represents merely the anticlimax a half-successful drive. Without the option of the field goal, football would be forced to become far more exciting. No more cop-out field-goal attempts: score a goal or give up the ball.

Tear down those goal posts.
5:45 PM Oct 15th
 
MattDiFilippo
Tango's got a great point on the CFL rules. The NFL would be much more exciting if some of the Canadian rules were adopted. It won't happen, which is too bad. The NFL's biggest rules changes usually come when they sense the need to change their product because of factors like competition.
5:29 PM Oct 15th
 
ScottSegrin
I see one flaw in the logic for a 3-man rotation. How many pitches does a pitcher throw warming up for a game? 25? 30? More? I don't know how many, but say it's 25. If he gets 14 extra starts per season, that's 350 more warm-up pitches he throws - almost 4 games worth. More if the number of warm-up pitches is greater than 25. If you modify his in-game workload to account for that, you would be reducing the ratio of substantive pitches (in-game) to total pitches throw, thus wasting effort and not getting as much bang for the buck.
4:45 PM Oct 15th
 
tangotiger
Regarding rule changes, baseball is extremely complacent. The NHL is much more avant-garde on this. Even for simple things, like divisional-realignment, the NHL has no problem moving teams around (any reason the Blue Jays and Orioles have been in the same division for 30 years?). In MLB, it's always some phony outrage drama, always "don't fix what ain't broken... and nuthin's broken". You should keep the core of the game true, and you work on the fringes.

As for NFL rule changes, I'd go for the "rouge" in the CFL. Why make an unsuccessful FG a dead ball? I'd also remove the "fair catch" and employ the CFL rule of giving the kick returner a 5 yard perimeter after catching the ball before trying to tackle. It seems wrong for a player to take the equivalent of a knee following a kick. For the QB, that's ok. But for a returner?
4:21 PM Oct 15th
 
 
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