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Broken: 511

October 28, 2008

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”

            --Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

 

Everybody is Against You

Sometimes stand-up comics bomb.  They die out there.  You watch them, on the stage, in the glare of the house spotlight, armed with nothing more than a microphone and their words.  And you can’t help but cringe a little when it’s not working, letting out another slow groan with each horrible, predictable punchline.  Nothing they say seems funny.  Maybe it’s their fault.  Maybe the material isn’t all that good, not that clever.  There are a lot of hacks out there, cranking out sub-standard material.  It happens. 

 

But then again, sometimes, it’s not the comedians’ fault at all.  Sometimes they run into a bad audience that isn’t receptive to what they have to say.  An audience that isn’t willing to meet them halfway, a group of people in a collective bad mood that won’t seem to lift. No matter how professional and polished and proven the material is, the set isn’t going to succeed.  They find an audience that’s not easy to impress.  And it looks like it ain’t gonna happen on their night, either.  Every now and then, you play to a “Tough Crowd.” 

 

I can think of a handful of historical Tough Crowds.  Bob Dylan (the man who wrote “Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door” and “The Times they are a-Changin’” and “Like a Rolling Stone” and “Blowin’ in the Wind” and so on) was booed off the stage at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival, forced to end his set after three short songs.  They say that the fans were angry because Dylan decided to play his songs on an electric guitar.  That was seen as an Act of War, a metaphorical gesture comparable to spitting in the face of the folk scene, and so the audience instantaneously turned on him.  They voiced their displeasure, they registered their discontent.  Thus Bob Dylan – despite all his fame, success, and musical accomplishment – was stranded and doomed.  It wouldn’t have mattered what songs he chose, how amazing his lyrics were (and let’s face it, they guy was capable of some pretty decent lyrical work) or how much soul he put into his performance.  In the end, the crowd did not want him to play an electric guitar.  They booed him off the stage.  That’s an example of a Tough Crowd.

 

Here’s another one.  Jimi Hendrix was booked as the opening act when The Monkees went on tour.  Now Hendrix, of course, was a musical genius who revolutionized rock music with his incendiary guitar playing.  It’s not really a stretch to call him the greatest rock guitarist of all time.  He was brilliant, innovative, and trailblazing.  The Monkees, on the other hand…  were not.  They were a group of four cute young white guys who were thrown together to create a television show.  Having Hendrix open for them was a bit of inspired madness that seems slightly demented and absurd in retrospect.  And it resulted in arenas full of worshipful teenage Monkees fans reacting to Hendrix with cold bewilderment on a nightly basis.  They were there to hear Davy Jones sing “Daydream Believer,” just like on the show.  Cheer up, sleepy Jean/Oh, what can it mean?/To a Daydream Believer/And a Homecoming Queen?  That’s all they wanted.  It wasn’t too much to ask for.  Instead, they were rudely greeted by the plodding and demonic dissonant tritone intervals that led to the E7#9 machine gun chords of “Purple Haze.”  Uh, no.  That really wasn’t going to fly.  Wrong place, wrong time.  Jimi Hendrix – amazing showman, masterful guitarist, and musical genius – got thrown off the tour as the Monkees’ opening act.  Like I said, Tough Crowd.

 

Dylan ran into a group that was not going to accept him, despite all his contributions to the world of music.  Hendrix ran into a crowd that wasn’t going to accept him, despite all his prodigious talents.  And then there were the dozens of writers who voted that Cy Young did not deserve to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

 

Victory is not Enough

Hall of Famers are a select group, the absolute best players ever to play the game.  But even in a club as exclusive as the Hall of Fame, there are still different tiers, different levels, different stratifications.  Some guys got elected without a hitch, because their greatness was never questioned.  Eveyone knows and accepts that they deserve the highest honors imaginable.  In his election year, Hank Aaron received 97.83% of the vote.  Willie Mays received 94.68%.  Cal Ripken Jr. got 98.53% and Mike Schmidt got 96.52%.  No worries, no arguments.  All these guys cleared the required 75% threshold without any difficulty.  By any measure, these men were deserving.

 

Then, there are the guys who squeak in.  They know that they need to receive 75%, and it’s going to come down to the wire, every vote counts.  They seem qualified, but there’s too much uncertainty.  These players were really good, but maybe not dominant enough to waltz right in. 

 

Tony Perez had the benefit of playing on some awesome offensive teams.  Surrounded by talent like Bench, Morgan, and Rose, he built his reputation on his RBI numbers, a stat that is almost completely dependent on team context.  While some writers were clearly unconvinced of his merits, he did manage to get elected when he received 77.15% of the vote. 

 

Receiving even less support was Bruce Sutter.  A relief specialist, and one who wasn’t as effective as a contemporary like Goose Gossage, Sutter seemed to receive a halo effect for having popularized a new pitch, the split-finger fastball.  It was an odd way to build a Hall of Fame portfolio.  Still, Sutter managed to barely claw his way in, picking up 76.90% of the vote. 

 

And then there was Catfish Hunter.  Hunter had a cool nickname, played on some excellent teams, and signed a big contract that helped set him apart from the crowd.  He only won 224 games in 15 years, and his ERA+ for his career was an underwhelming 104.  That’s not very good.  Still, Catfish apparently did enough things to make a positive impression on the voters, and he snuck in there with 76.27% of the vote.

 

Not a lot of breathing room for those guys.  Perez (77.15%), Sutter (76.90%) and Hunter (76.27%) were all marginal candidates, but because the winds were blowing in their favor and Fate was smiling down on them on their respective election days, they were able to corral just about the absolute minimum necessary to get a plaque in Cooperstown. 

 

Of course, they all received more support than Cy Young, who barely got his passing grade, garnering 76.12% from the writers.    

 

(And Young was actually fortunate to improve up to 76.12% of the vote.  Because the year before, in his first year of eligibility, only 49.1% of the writers voted for him.  Forty-nine percent.  That’s less than half.  After winning 511 games in his career, less than half the voters were impressed enough to support his candidacy.  The writers were allowed to vote for up to ten candidates.  And on over fifty perent of those ballots, Cy Young was not considered one of the top ten candidates.  He didn’t make the cut.)

 

I Can’t Get Into Your Head

I would like to have known a person who chose not to vote for Cy Young.  I would like to have discussed with him the standards he had for the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown.  What constituted greatness for this voter?  What level of accomplishment was necessary in his eyes in order to gain entry?  You know, when a man wins 511 games and does not receive your vote, my question becomes, how many more wins does he need to impress you?  And how, exactly, did you reach that figure,  since nobody else in the history of baseball has ever achieved it? 

 

Most people think that getting 300 wins makes you a mortal lock to get voted into the Hall of Fame.  It’s such a difficult accomplishment, that conventional wisdom often suggests there will no longer be any 300 game winners in the future, due to the advent of the five-man rotation and the greater reliance on relievers.  It’s a dying breed, in danger of extinction.

 

Cy Young had 300 wins.  He crushed that number.  He reached 300 wins, then piled another 211 on top.  That’s a lot of additional wins in excess of traditional, standard greatness.  If you won 20 games a year, every year, for an entire decade, you would still come up short of the number of games Cy Young won after posting his 300th win.  So how does he end up pulling 76.12% after bombing out at under 50% the first time around?

 

Look, I want to give the Hall of Fame voters the benefit of the doubt.  I want to try and understand them.  I want to try and figure out reasons why someone wouldn’t vote for a man with 511 wins, a 2.63 lifetime ERA, 749 complete games, and 76 shutouts.  (He also led the league in saves twice, and finished in the top ten for saves in ten different seasons.  I only mention this because I suddenly find myself in the odd position of having to prop up Cy Young’s credentials.)  Keeping all this in mind, here are some possible theories on why a reasonable man might choose not to vote for Cy Young.

 

Theory 1, The Illusion of Longevity.  We can also call this “The Don Sutton Rule.”  When Sutton was eligible for enshrinement, a lot of voters were reluctant to vote for him because they felt he padded his counting stats by showing up and hanging around.  Sutton won 324 games by being an above average pitcher over a twenty-three year career.  The argument against him at the time was that he was consistent, and he was good, but he was rarely dominant.  As an illustration, they pointed out that he had only won twenty games in a season once.  So maybe the voters felt that Cy Young was the ultimate beneficiary of The Don Sutton Rule, a guy who kept playing and playing until he racked up 511 wins.

 

Except that when he was forty years old, Young won 21 games (eighth in the league) and carried a 1.99 ERA (fifth in the league.)  And when he was forty-one, he won twenty games (fourth in the league) and had a 1.26 ERA (good for second in the league.)  When he hit the age of forty-two years old, Young won 19 games (fourth in the league) while sporting a 2.26 ERA.  Man, I don’t care who you are.  A starting pitcher with a 1.26 ERA is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Young didn’t hang around to pad his stats.  He was dominating batters for years after he passed his fortieth birthday.  Whatever the reasons are for choosing not to vote for Cy Young, a “diminished tail end to his career” is not one of them.  Next.

 

Theory 2, The Adjustment for Era Context.  Because Young played at the turn of the century, you could argue that his pitching stats should be de-valued.  Pitchers had all their numbers inflated back then, and you need to discount everything, to take the records with a grain of salt.  I can see that.  That’s valid.

 

Of course, if every pitcher was benefiting from the conditions of the time, why was Cy Young the only one to win five hundred games?  Why couldn’t Mickey Welch, or Charles Radbourn, or Eddie Plank, or John Clarkson also win five hundred?  Even under optimal pitching conditions, Young was still performing at a level far beyond his peers.  He wasn’t a mirage created by the conditions at the time.  He was a superior competitor, and the margin of difference is instructive.

 

 This one seems plausible.  When I first started considering the question of why someone would choose not to vote for Cy Young, I thought the most likely possibility was that there were too many worthy candidates in those initial elections.  If there were too many deserving players crowding the ballot, maybe the writers decided Cy Young wasn’t one of the ten most deserving players?  I don’t know.  It all seems so unlikely to me, but I guess that could happen.

 

Except that it seems like the votes that were cast didn’t exactly go to more deserving players.  In 1937, the year Young was barely elected, 48 of the 201 voters chose not to list him as one of their ten picks.  He needed 151 votes for election, and he got 153, clearing the hurdle by millimeters, probably even scraping it on his way over.  Here are some other players who received votes in that election:

 

Lou Criger received 16 votes.  Lou played in the Majors for 16 years, had a career batting average of .221 and had 11 total career homers.  There were 16 writers voting for Lou Criger in the same election that 48 writers were not voting Cy Young.  When Bill James listed 100 best catchers of all-time in his New Historical Baseball Abstract, Lou Criger did not make the top 100.  Criger was several spots beyond that at 115.  He finished behind such notable recent backstops as Ron Hassey (89th), Jody Davis (90th), Mike Lavalliere (91st), Charlie Moore (96th), and Bo Diaz (97th).  Ranked at 115, Criger barely beat out Ron Karkovice, who was listed four spots behind him at 119.  Let me ask you, can you imagine voting for Ron Karkovice for the Baseball Hall of Fame?  Can you imagine 16 baseball writers doing it in a single year?

 

Nap Rucker received 11 votes.  Rucker and Young were actually contemporaries.  Rucker’s career only lasted ten years, and Young was active in the Majors during half those seasons.  So it would be possible to compare Rucker and Young – they played in the same period.  And in his time in the Majors, Rucker was a .500 pitcher who had a 134-134 career record.  Rucker never led the league in ERA (he was only in the top ten twice.)  He never led the league in wins (the closest he ever came was fifth.)  He did lead the league in walks allowed one year, and he led the league in hits allowed in a different season.  So, once again, I would like to point out that Nap Rucker received 11 votes for the Hall of Fame in the same election that Cy Young barely squeaked in by 1.12 percent of the vote.

 

Jimmy Archer received 6 votes.  I won’t say too much about the merits of his career other than to point out that one of the top ten career similarity scores for Archer is Billy Ripken.  And his top match is Alex Trevino.  So, yeah, there were six writers who voted for that guy.

 

Bugs Raymond got a vote.  Which is inexplicable to me.  I’ll give you the stats.  Ready?  Here we go.  Bugs Raymond played in the Majors for six years.  His season high was 18 wins.  He won 45 games total.  And he lost 57.  Which meant that he was 12 games under .500 for his career.  Oh, and Cy Young was active during Raymond’s entire career, so they were contemporaries that could be directly compared to one another.

 

And the man who tried to fix more games than any other player in history, Hal Chase, got 18 votes for enshrinement into the Hall of Fame.  In the New Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill wrote “The secret of Hal Chase, I believe, was that he was able to reach out and embrace that evil…” and (in a later passage) “This is the corrupt.  No matter what his skills, I would not want Hal Chase around, period, and I find it extremely difficult to believe that he ever helped any team, at all, period.”  Sounds great.  18 votes for Chase.    

 

If writers weren’t voting for Cy Young, it’s not because they were compelled by other towering figures that demanded their attention.  Unless of course you consider Lou Criger, Nap Rucker, Jimmy Archer, Bugs Raymond, and Hal Chase to be the best representatives of excellence the sport of baseball has to offer.  I mean, you might.  After all, at one point, there were several professional sportswriters who felt that way.

 

How All This Came To Be

In the end, I think that the most likely answer as to why the writers didn’t vote for Cy Young is that they didn’t know what they were doing.  And I don’t mean that as a cheap shot.  I mean that they literally had no idea what the process was.  From what I gather, a lot of those early voters weren’t even sure if they were allowed to vote for Cy Young.  That sort of confusion would probably have an impact of the results.  

 

In 1936 and 1937, voting for the Hall of Fame was a process in its infancy with poorly defined guidelines and very little guidance.  The disregard for Cy Young’s credentials and qualifications makes more sense when seen in that regard.  Hell, voting for the Hall of Fame today is still nebulous and unpredictable, so I think we have to be a little more forgiving of outcomes that came over seventy years ago.  When you take an uninformed voting populace and provide them with minimal instruction, do not be surprised when the election results defy all known reason.

 

And this is the point in the essay where I was planning to take that previous sentence and tie it into a deeper point.  But maybe I’ll just let it stand on its own.  Sometimes, less is more.  Sometimes, it’s best to leave things unsaid.

 

 

If you have any thoughts you want to share, I would love to hear from you.  I can be contacted at roeltorres@post.harvard.edu.  Thank you.

 
 

COMMENTS (33 Comments, most recent shown first)

MarisFan61
Looks like the writer isn't aware of the actual story on why Cy Young didn't do better in that first HOF vote.

I don't recall the EXACT details, but......it was nothing more than this: Apparently there was some confusion and uncertainty about whether he was to be regarded as a "19th century" or "20th century" player. As I understand it, the 2 groups were considered separately -- and they just hadn't agreed on where to place Cy.
11:45 PM Feb 4th
 
RoelTorres
Hi dburba,

While I agree that it seems silly for anyone not to vote for Aaron or Mays, I can find it more comprehensible when less than 3% of the voters do something weird, than when a much larger percentage does. For example, when Aaron was elected, he received support from 406 of the 415 voters. That meant only 9 of 415 people didn't vote for him, or 2.17%. Whenever you get any group of 415 people together, I find it completely plausible that you'll find 2.17% acting contrarian or irrational. I'm not all that surprised.

(As a matter of fact, almost every single election, poll, or survey has a margin of error of +/- 3% due to standard deviation. So it should almost be expected.)

Yes, people should vote for Aaron. But no, I'm not shocked when you find 9 people out of 415 not doing their job correctly. That doesn't really surprise me.
12:43 AM Nov 2nd
 
RoelTorres
Hi evan,

I have it on good authority that Cy Young was a big fan of traffic patterns, and would often recite the best alternate routes for leaving the ballpark during the seventh inning stretch. It's no wonder that traffic information hotlines have been designated in his honor. It was the only logical thing to do.
12:32 AM Nov 2nd
 
RoelTorres
Richie,

Speaker was 11, Collins was 18, Alexander was 20, Young was 23, and Lajoie was 40. So that's how Bill sized them up.

My personal rankings are a little different. I have Speaker at 14, Alexander at 17, Young at 19, Collins at 20, and Lajoie at 37. So there's a little bit of disagreement there. I suspect that's because Bill based his rankings on Win Shares, while I did mine off Expected Victory Performance Ration (EVPR).

...

Nah, I'm just kidding. I don't have a personal ranking of these guys. I just made up EVPR. But it sounds pretty cool, right?

Someone talk to Fleming or Namee. They could probably whip something up using the power of their brains and stuff.
12:29 AM Nov 2nd
 
dburba
Hi Roel, great article. As much as Young's voting history boggles the mind, it never ceases to amaze me that there were guys out there that voted against Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, etc. I know anytime you have more than a handful of people voting on anything outside of a jury room the chances for unanimity decrease, but I wonder what said voters in defense of leaving the all-time leader in HRs (at the time) and RBI off the ballot.
6:54 PM Nov 1st
 
evanecurb
Cy Young's achievement has been honored in some states by designating 511 as the official number to call for traffic information. Let's see Walter Johnson or Sandy Koufax top THAT.
4:17 PM Oct 30th
 
Richie
Thanks for the update, Roel.

Just curious as to where Lajoie, Speaker, Alexander and Collins are on that list. Off the top of my head, I'd guess 2 above Cy's #23, and 2 below.
11:05 AM Oct 30th
 
RoelTorres
Richie,

Cy Young is rated #23 among all players at all positions. Obviously, there are a bunch of guys on the list ahead of him who played in the Majors well after the 1937 election. And there are Negro Leaguers ahead of Young as well.
6:09 PM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Matt,

Yeah, that was a cool, unplanned exchange. Sometimes, the stars align. Billy Ray Bates!

Basically, any player good enough to dominate an NBA playoff series is going to positively wreck the Filipino Basketball League. Especially since Bates went to the Philippines in his physical prime.

(Man, that Wikipedia entry is full of so many crazy details. God bless the internet...)
3:11 PM Oct 29th
 
MattDiFilippo
Roel,

Wow! That's amazing! I had no clue Billy Ray Bates was that popular in the Phillipines. I knew from The Sports Encyclopedia: Pro Basketball that he had a couple of seasons where he was on fire in the playoffs, and he seemed like he was ahead of his time in the use of the 3-pointer.

I came up with Bates because I was trying to think of some kind of analogy to Bugs Raymond, who was a character and well-known despite his unimpressive career numbers. I actually almost wrote, "No, I'm not making that name up."
2:26 PM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Richie,

One more thing: my copy of the Historical Abstract is at home, and I'm at the office at the moment (I'm on my lunch break, if anyone cares, so cut me some slack. (Nobody really cares out there, do you?)) I can look up the Young's Historical Abstract rating for you when I get back.
1:08 PM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Richie,

In the previous 1936 election, 5 guys all got more than 90% of the vote. In the 1937 election, nobody was over 90% and only 3 guys got over 75%. It still seems a little low but I might be belaboring the point.

A lot of Cy Young's value is definitely tied up in career value. I mean, when your strongest qualification is 511 wins, then you're definitely promoting the sum of your experiences as a ballplayer.

If that was the one of the determining factors, I think we can't fault the voters in the 1930's for having a hard time gauging the relative worth of Peak and Career value. Even voters today, armed with hard drives worth of stats, still can't come to terms with it. Blyleven can't get in because people feel he's all Career and no Peak. Mattingly isn't even in shouting distance because he's all Peak and no Career. So if voters can't settle things comfortably today, I'm sure it was even more problematic then.

1:04 PM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Matt,

I was going to respond to the content of your most recent posts, but instead I think I'm going to pursue a more interesting tangent. It's funny that you mention Billy Ray Bates because that man is a national icon in the Philippines. No joke. He's a huge superstar. So instead of furthering our productive discussion on Cy Young and the voting and the context of the times and the use of statistics, I'm going to take a quote from Billy Ray's Wikipedia entry, and suggest you take a second to look up his hoops career in the Philippines:

For Wikipedia:
"Bates’s scoring ability and flamboyant showmanship plus a charismatic, outgoing personality endeared him to the basketball-watching Filipino public and the media. He was called the Black Superman. A local shoe manufacturer gave him an endorsement coming out with a line of shoe with “Black Superman” emblazoned on it. Bates was so flattered big time with this endorsement that he was spreading the word back home in Mississippi about his success in the Philippines, even having a pair of rubber shoes named after him.

"Those people, they loved me," Bates would tell The Oregonian. "There, I was like Michael Jordan. I could have anything I wanted. All I had to do was snap my fingers. I had my own condo, my own car and my own bodyguard with an Uzi. I had to fight off the women."

Wacky, right? Man, you had no idea that you were tempting fate by mentioning Billy Ray Bates to a Filipino! (Note: my Chinese friends act the same way when I talk about Bruce Lee. Just FYI.)

I have no idea how you managed to pull the name Billy Ray Bates out of a hat. But -- unlike the tough crowd who booed Dylan and Hendrix off the stage -- in this case, I was the perfect audience for that remark.

Thanks, Matt!
12:47 PM Oct 29th
 
Richie
Looking at your 1937 list, Roel, I think you could make a reasonable argument that Lajoie, Speaker, Alexander and Collins were better ballplayers than Cy, certainly looking at it from a 'peak' perspective. In which case, then the 5th-best guy gets just over 75%. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

I'm guessing the answer lies there. Voters of the time were more interested in 'peak' than 'career value', perhaps due to the relative 'youth' of baseball at the time, perhaps due to career statistical guidelines still being formed.

The last time Bill rated players according to 'peak' performance, where did he place Cy? What I recall of his first Historical Abstract, it wasn't all that high.
11:38 AM Oct 29th
 
MattDiFilippo
Thanks Roel. I'm with you in that I wish we had something like that. It's interesting that the NBA is at roughly the same point in its history now as when baseball opened the Hall of Fame. If we had spotty statistics and we're trying to get the top 50 within the first 10 years, and we used a process where you could vote for anyone, I think we'd still have the same problems. People would have their reasons for leaving off Wilt Chamberlain, and someone would probably vote for Billy Ray Bates because they remembered him being a folk hero in the playoffs for a couple years.

The election of players from the Negro Leagues could very well follow the same lines. When Scott Simkus' full statistics come to light, I gather we'll see that some of the players are not nearly as deserving as we thought.

Bill did make a point in separating Jackson and Chase as the corrupted and the corrupt. But Bill is also VERY anti-Joe Jackson for the Hall of Fame. He once wrote that Omar Moreno and Duane Kuiper should get in first, and later wrote, "My own opinion is that the people who want to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame are baseball's answer to those women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer."
10:44 AM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Matt,

You make an excellent point, and it’s one that I wish I emphasized a little more, which is that it is very hard to understand what people are thinking when you are separated by seven decades of cultural and societal change. I had that thought in my mind when I wrote that I would like to talk to a person who didn’t vote for Cy Young, and titled that section “I Can’t Get Into Your Head,” but I wish I articulated the point as well as you just did. There are always going to be period specific occurrences that become difficult to re-construct after the fact.

Bill makes a distinction between Hal Chase and Joe Jackson, in that Joe got tempted by outside influences and gave in. Hal Chase, in contrast, actively orchestrated multiple instances of throwing games. Plus, he wasn’t as good a player as Shoeless Joe. Still, I hear you. In principle, the writers were voting for a player who threw games.

The thing about global warming and gay rights, whichever side of the debate people are on, there is a lot of documentation explaining people’s viewpoints. Folks write essays and books and editorials that explicitly spell out their thought process. “I did this, and I believe this, and here is my reasoning.” We don’t have that same sort of archaeological evidence on the 1936 and 1937 votes. “I left Cy Young off the ballot for this reason” or “I voted for Nap Rucker for this reason.” I suppose that’s what my essay is all about – something happened a long time ago, and I’m not sure how to explain it; I wish that I knew more.


10:19 AM Oct 29th
 
MattDiFilippo
With respect to why wouldn't Young stick out more in 1937, my guess is that statistics were not as large a part of the discussion as they would be today. This was 32 years before the publication of the Baseball Encyclopedia. Young played in two postseason series in his career, and his personality doesn't seem to lend itself to a lot of anecdotes or an easily summed-up image, so it's very possible he wasn't famous like Cobb, Mathewson, or Walter Johnson. To the extent that people did follow the statistics, well, Young also easily holds the career record for losses, with 316. I'm not saying that's the right argument. I'm just saying it's very easy to look back at a previous generation and think, "What the hell were they thinking?" without understanding the context -- and I don't think any of us fully understand the context from this distance.

Cy Young played at a time when players would spit in their hat if they saw a cross-eyed person on the street or rub their hands through black children's hair for good luck. Although picking Hal Chase for the Hall of Fame looks silly now, I don't think it's any more stupid than putting Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame -- and there are plenty of people, even today, who want to do that.

So no, votes for people like Bugs Raymond or Joe Battin don't make sense to us from this distance. But it's also very probable that in a hundred years people will wonder why we didn't do something about global warming and why we took so long to treat homosexuals like they had the same rights as heterosexuals. If we're lucky, they'll wonder why we took so long to fix the legal system and why people of our generation were so obese. The present generation always likes to think it has learned more than the one before it, but the truth is, we're looking through a very foggy lens.
1:34 AM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Tim,

Thanks as always for your thoughts. It’s always good to get your perspective on things.

As I’ve mentioned, I’m not as upset by the notion that Young was not voted in on the 1936 ballot when, as you say, his competition was “every player who had ever played the game.” That’s true. But I still think he should have gotten stronger support in 1937. I suppose the point is rather academic, since he did meet the qualifications for election. But it still seems like a rather miserly percentage.

I see your point about the lower level of competition in the fledgling AL. But it gets a little murkier when you follow up and point out that even if we compensate for the change in leagues, he would have still won 450 games. Isn’t that plenty? That sounds like plenty. Even with the adjustment, he still ends up with more wins than anyone else in the history of the game.

1:08 AM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Richie,

Here’s a list of the top ten vote getters in that 1937 election: Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, Willie Keeler, George Sisler, Ed Delahanty, Rube Waddell, and Jimmy Collins.

Lajoie, Speaker, and Young were elected. Alexander, E. Collins, Keeler, Sisler, Delahanty, Waddell, and J. Collins did not get in that year. Do the names on that list stir up any reactions, one way or the other? I’m not sure. I don’t know whether it lends any clarity to the situation.

Your second point is an interesting one. I don’t know. When Bill wrote the New Historical Abstract in 2001, he ranked Young as the 4th greatest pitcher of all time. In 2001, Bill had to consider guys like Koufax, Feller, Seaver, Clemens, Maddux, Carlton, Gibson, Ryan, Pedro, and so on. If Young can be named the 4th greatest pitcher of all-time in 2001 after 71 years of great pitchers have added their contributions to baseball, I would think that Cy Young would have stood out from the crowd even more in 1937, when there weren’t as many guys to consider and to cloud the discussion, right? Or am I missing something?

12:44 AM Oct 29th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Matt,

Good to hear from you. While I believe that you have outlined two very probable lines of thought, I don't think that makes them "sensible." I am aware that some voters absolutely refuse to vote anyone in on the first ballot, and that just strikes me as silly and useless. I know the practice exists, but I really don't find it appealing nor justifiable. Sometimes, a precedent needs to be set, even if nobody has ever broken the barrier before.

The second theory sounds far more tactical and has some actual advantages to it, benefiting players who might need some support. I have to admit the thought never crossed my mind, but it's a pretty decent example of thinking outside the box.


12:20 AM Oct 29th
 
timconnelly
Roel,

Although the American League declared itself to be a major league in 1901, the best evidence indicates that it wasn't. Nap Lajoie went from .337 in 1900 in the NL to .426 in 1901 in the AL with career highs in everything. Cy went from a 19-19 season to a 33-10 season, winning 120 games during his first 4 seasons, padding his statistics and his legacy tremendously by switching to the weaker American League.

Imagine if Walter Johnson had switched to the Federal League in 1914 where a pitcher named Claude Hendrix went from 14-15 with a 2.84 ERA in the NL to 29-10 with a 1.69 ERA in the Federal League. When a terrific player has the chance to face weaker line-ups and weaker pitching staffs- you get a statistical illusion of monumental proportions. If you take away the 4 seasons of 1901 to 1904, Young's career winning percentage is only .591. Most pitchers do not improve so drastically at 34 so without a doubt, the weaker American League was the equivalent of steroids for Cy. He went from 91-67 over his final 4 NL seasons to 120-46 over his first 4 AL years.

Was Young a top of the line all time great? Sure he was. If you lower his win totals to account for the AL being weaker- you still have him winning more than 450.

But was he in the same class as Clemens and Johnson and Lefty Grove- actually he wasn't! Young wasn't as good as Grover Cleveland Alexander and through 1900, he wasn't as good as Kid Nichols who won 30 or more games 7 times to Young's twice, and had more career wins, more shutouts, more complete games, a better winning percentage and a lower ERA.

That Young aged better than anybody in the known universe is indisputable. His 1908 season at age 41 is truly amazing. Could a reasonable person choose 10 players who were greater than him through 1936? I rather doubt it. But leaving him off the ballot in 1936 isn't the same thing as it would be to leave Tom Seaver off in 1992. Seaver's competition wasn't every player who had ever played the game.

Great article!!

11:49 PM Oct 28th
 
Richie
Leaving out one obvious thing. Who were the other great players on the 1937 ballot? Those are the ones Cy was competing against for votes and enshrinement. Also, voters weren't OBLIGATED to vote for 10 players. I could see a 1937 version of myself limiting said self to voting for only 5, a la in 1936.

Not that much of a baseball history buff, but my understanding is that it's not that self-evident that, as of 1937, Cy Young was one of the 10 greatest players of all time. Particularly on what we call 'peak value'.
11:29 PM Oct 28th
 
MattDiFilippo
There are two very sensible arguments for why someone would not have voted for Willie Mays. 1. The voter may have said, "No one else got unanimous first-ballot selection. I don't think he should be the first if we didn't honor Babe Ruth/Ty Cobb/etc. in this way." 2. If the voter has a finite number of votes, he could accurately determine that Mays will get in the Hall of Fame no matter what he does. So it would be reasonable for him to say, "Rather than waste one of my votes on Willie, I'll try to help another candidate, or I'll vote for an obviously unqualified candidate to demonstrate an error in the process." I'm sure there are many other reasons I'm not thinking of at the moment. I don't think it's as simple as saying, "This voter doesn't think Willie Mays should be in the Hall of Fame."
11:26 PM Oct 28th
 
RoelTorres
Hi 3for3,

I completely agree that the first ballot is much more defensible. I can see how your explanation would play out, and it doesn't seem all that unreasonable. That's pretty much why I focused on the second ballot, when there were still dozens of voters who chose not to support Young. Once you take Cobb, Ruth, Walter Johnson, Mathewson, and Honus Wagner out of the picture -- it gets a little more curious how Young only got 76.12%.

I think TangoTiger is on the right track when he says that the pre-1900 guys and the post-1900 guys got a little confused about how everything worked. And I think you and evan are also on the right tracks when we talk about the depth of the ballot.
10:29 PM Oct 28th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Brian,

While that sounds sensible, we should also remember that the writers voted in guys like Babe Ruth who posted 714 homers while nobody had ever hit as much as 200 before him. So it seems like maybe the voters were comfortable with some forms of unprecedented dominance, but not with others?
10:21 PM Oct 28th
 
RoelTorres
Hi hammer2525,

I'm with you, pal. Not voting for Willie Mays means your standard of greatness exceeds Willie's performance. And again, if that's the case, then I don't know who you're waiting for.

Thanks for the kind words.
10:18 PM Oct 28th
 
3for3
The case against Cy Young:

There was some pretty tall timber on that first ballot. There were 3 position players who would clearly rate ahead of Young in most voters minds, Ruth, Cobb, Wagner. The 2 pitchers who made it the first year were no slouches either, Johnson and Matty, who both had a career ERA about 1/2 run better than Young. There is no doubt in my mind Johnson was better, and Matty had 360 wins at age 33... As to the other 5 spots, it takes a little more work, but it can be done. For whatever reason, second base was a very strong position the first few decades of the century. Hornsby, Collins and Lajoie were also possibilities. The 98% version of Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker was there. 2 active superstars, Gehrig and Cochrane also received votes. By my count,that makes 11 other serious contenders. Would I have had Young on my ballot? I think yes, but you could defend a ballot with 10 of those other fellas too.

Danny
9:56 PM Oct 28th
 
Brian
I remember Bill James wrote about a minor league player that if he hit 45 homers, he would be a top prospect, but if he hit 70, no one would know what to make of him. People would I guess assume that a ridiculously high number of homeruns had to come in a lousy league with a bandbox for a park and couldn't mean anything. Perhaps there is a little of that with the 511 wins. It is so ridiculous a total that the voters just discarded it in their minds, figuring it must have been a creation of the influences of the previous era and didn't mean anything. Had he won 400, he might have gotten more votes.
9:30 PM Oct 28th
 
hammer2525
Very interesting stuff. I find it amazing that Mays got 94.68%. I don't think a baseball writer would be able to keep his job if he didn't vote for Mays!!!
9:12 PM Oct 28th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Evan,

I figured I should leave things unsaid because I was going to try and say something profound about our responsibility as a citizenry to take voting seriously. But then I realized that I can barely speak knowledgeably about topics I am comfortable with, much less delving into waters where I am clearly out of my depth. So I kept my damn mouth shut.

The 1936 ballot was extremely crowded, that's true. But when I focused on the 1937 ballot, Young's vote still seemed peculiarly low -- especially with the big guns like Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Walter Johnson, and Mathewson elected. Yeah, you're right, I should have given more time to the crowded ballot. But if people are throwing votes around like frisbees in random directions, I think it indicates that there was a lack of focus.

Thanks for your thoughts.
4:26 PM Oct 28th
 
evanecurb
"When you take an uninformed voting populace and provide them with minimal instruction, do not be surprised when the election results defy all known reason."

Roel: I think you choose wisely to leave those things unsaid. Otherwise you head down a path that it is a difficult one to navigate.
With respect to the 1936 HOF election, you dismiss the impact of the crowded ballot too easily. A case could be made that Rogers Hornsby, Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Mickey Cochrane, and Pete Alexander all deserved election as much as Young. None got in that year. Alexander appeared on 24% of the ballots. I don't know why anyone voted for Bugs Raymond, but I don't think that is the point.
4:16 PM Oct 28th
 
RoelTorres
Hi Tom,

I think that's correct. People weren't sure if he was a pre-1900 guy or a post-1900 guy, and so both sides kinda forgot to vote for him. And I suspect that they didn't clear up the issue sufficiently the second time around, and he got caught in the same dilemma again.

When in doubt, chalk it up to confusion and human error.
3:28 PM Oct 28th
 
tangotiger
I believe that in that first year of the HOF, they selected 5 players from the pre-1900 era, and 5 from the post-1900 era. Cy Young I think split the vote into both eras (I guess they didn't decide beforehand what era he belonged to), and didn't get enough votes in either. I think that's what I remember reading. Maybe even in James' book on the subject.
3:16 PM Oct 28th
 
 
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