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2009 BJOL Hall of Fame Vote

January 6, 2009
 
Welcome to the first annual Bill James Online Hall of Fame vote.
 
I’ve listed the candidates on this year’s baseball Hall of Fame ballot, along with a few thoughts about the players. Read them over and then, in the comments section of the article, cast a ballot for the players you’d like to vote for.
 
You can vote for up to ten players on your ballot, and please cast only one ballot. On January 12th I’ll tally the votes and announce who the BJOL readers would elect to the baseball HOF.
 
Let the voting begin.
 
Harold Baines – A compiler of numbers, Baines had a Hall-of-Fame length career, but without any of the peaks. He led the league in a statistical category once (slugging percentage, 1984), but was viewed as a consistently solid performer throughout his career. A beloved player, especially in Chicago where he did three stints with the Pale Hose, Baines stayed around as a designated hitter long enough to compile an impressive career line of 2866 hits, 384 homeruns, 1628 RBI’s, and a .289 batting average.
 
Jay Bell – Where does Bell’s 1999 campaign stand among the most unlikely seasons of all-time? Bell was something of a slap-hitter, a great bunter, and then out of the blue he hit 38 homeruns and 112 RBI for Arizona. Must’ve been something in the water, I guess.
 
I’ll always remember Bell as the bunting shortstop for the dynastic Pirate teams of 1990-1992. In 1990 and 1992 Bell was the team’s #2 hitter, the contact guy who set the table for Van Slyke, Bonds, and Bonilla. But in 1991 Jim Leyland did something unusual with the Bucs lineup: he slotted Jay Bell in the #5 spot, right between Bonilla and Bonds. More amazingly, Andy Van Slyke usually batted 7th that year. It was one of the strangest lineups of the last twenty years. I should write an article about it.
 
Bert Blyleven – The Beast from Zeist is something of a litmus test between those who seek objectively measure for players and those who prefer subjective analysis. Critics wonder why he didn’t win a Cy Young, or lead the league in ERA or wins, or have a better record than 287-250. Supporters point out the 287 games he did win (on lousy teams), the 3701 strikeouts he notched, and his complete and utter superiority to Jack Morris.
 
As a side note, Blyleven is the winningest pitcher born in the eastern hemisphere, but only by a hair over Tony Mullane (287-284). And like Blyleven, Mullane is a pitcher whose career deserves a second look. Known as the ‘Count of the Box’, Mullane won 30 games five years in a row. Interestingly, he was famous for pitching ambidextrously, which was easier to do back then because pitchers didn’t wear gloves, and people weren’t so entrenched in their thinking. Coming full circle, Mullane had the exact same ERA+ as Blyleven.
 
David Cone – In 1996, in his first start after going on the DL to deal with a brain aneurism, David Cone pitched seven innings of no-hit baseball. In the 8th, with the Yanks up 5-0, Cone was pulled out for a reliever. That reliever, some nobody named Rivera, gave up a single and cost Cone the no-hitter.
 
Cone, just coming off the DL, was on a tight pitch count and had tossed 85 pitches. Still, Torre's decision to pull Cone is surprising: here is a veteran pitcher having just come back from a dramatic injury, and he finds himself two innings away from baseball immortality. And his manager pulls him.
 
I think we need a term for something like that. Something along the lines of “Ruining the Story.” It can be applied to situations when a player or manager makes a decision that shows a willful disregard for the story that is unfolding. When he pulled Cone out of that game because of the pitch count, Joe Torre ruined a pretty good story.
 
Andre Dawson – Of the great outfielders of the 1975-1985 generation, isn’t it surprising that Jim Rice is the one who has gotten the most attention from the writers?
 
Think about it: Andre Dawson is Jim Rice plus. As a hitter, Hawk has the exact same characteristics as Rice does: they’re both power hitter with high batting averages and low on-base percentages who aged poorly. But Dawson was also a) a fine baserunner with 300 steals, and b) a great outfielder who won eight Gold Gloves.
 
 Yet Rice is going to the Hall, while Hawk will have to wait.
 
As I’ve stated previously, I think Rice is a crummy candidate for the Hall of Fame. Some folks will disagree with that, which is fine. What I don’t understand is how anyone could think Jim Rice is a better candidate than Andre Dawson.
 
Dawson’s career on-base percentage would be the lowest, by far, of any Hall of Fame outfielder. The current worst is Tony Perez at .341.
 
Ron Gant – In some respects, a similar player to Andre Dawson: good power with low secondary average, fast on the bases, fast enough to play center, but played left because the Braves had Andruw Jones and Justice.
 
Mark Grace – Do you ever sort of pair players together in your mind? Because I do. It’s the way my brain works, the way it organizes things. I’m a twin: that might be the problem right there.
 
Anyway, whenever I think about Mark Grace I think about Steve Garvey. They’re clockwork players, the guys who did the same thing year after year: hit .300 with a little pop, play first base well. And like Garvey, Grace always seemed to embody a kind of good-hearted wholesomeness that has a way of making one’s own failings stand in sharper contrast.
 
Or maybe it’s just a name thing: Steve Garvey. Mark Grace. Both have wholesomely American first names, and last names that call to mind sitting down to Sunday dinner. Say Grace and pass the Garvey.
 
Rickey Henderson – Pass.
 
Tommy John – Like Baines, Tommy John is a compiler of numbers. You look at his career line and think “Damn, that’s impressive.” Then you look at his individual record and wonder how the hell anyone could ever vote for the guy. An interesting case.
 
Don Mattingly – Most of you are probably aware that Don Mattingly and Kirby Puckett have nearly identical career lines. And I mean really identical.
 
The differences are small. Mattingly had a slightly higher adjusted OPS, because Yankee Stadium was a tougher hitter’s park than the Dome. Mattingly had 130 more walks. Puckett had 134 steals to Mattingly’s nine, but Puckett was caught stealing an abysmal 76 times. Puckett’s career ended early because of bad eyes. Mattingly’s career ended early because of a bad back. Small differences.
 
So why Puckett and not Mattingly? The argument most frequently posited is that Puckett was a centerfielder, while Mattingly was a first baseman. To my mind it’s a fair and accurate point to make.
 
What I’d love to know is this: if HOF voters are willing to use the defensive spectrum as a measure to keep Mattingly out of the Hall of Fame, why can’t they use that same measure to put guys like Whittaker and Grich and Trammell into the Hall of Fame?
 
Mark McGwire – A fine player, I can’t understand why he hasn’t been elected yet. Probably some extenuating circumstances that I’ve forgotten about.
 
Jack Morris – The anti-Blyleven. People like to say that Morris was the best pitcher of his generation. I’d just like to point out: a) it’s a damned crummy generation, and b) he wasn’t the best of it. 
 
Dale Murphy – Going back to my point about Dawson, Murphy is another outfielder who I’m amazed hasn’t gotten more attention that Jim Rice. People, I think, have forgotten about this, but for most of my baseball watching life everyone assumed Murphy was going to the Hall of Fame. He was a centerfielder who won two straight MVP awards and five Gold Gloves. He was also one of the most admired and charitable athletes in baseball, a clean-liver (pun intended) at a time when drug use among players was rampant.
 
So you have the best centerfielder of his era, a two-time MVP, a fine defensive player who stole bases, and a guy who was lionized, for good reason, by the press. Yet he’s drawn far fewer votes than Rice and Dawson, and is about even with Dave Parker. It’s a surprise.
 
Jesse Orosco – Orosco has 141 Win Shares, which is actually a good total for a relief pitcher. Dan Quisenberry had 157. Bruce Sutter had 168. Hoffman has 176.
 
Orosco won’t make the Hall, but he pitched in more games than anyone in history, and was deadly against lefty hitters. Some notable players who had 20+ plate appearances against Orosco: Tim Raines hit .200 off Orosco. Wade Boggs hit .182. Ozzie Smith hit .163. Dave Parker hit .095. Mike Schmidt hit .176. Barry Bonds hit .143 in 30 at-bats, with just two homeruns. Jim Thome was 0-for-14 against Orosco.
 
Dave Parker – Like Rice, Parker had pronounced home/road splits during his years with the Pirates, though they weren’t quite as pronounced.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but Parker was another Rice plus: same hitting characteristics, plus a cannon arm in right field and a little more speed on the bases.
 
In 1978 Parker had his cheek fractured during a collision at home plate. He came back wearing a hockey goalie mask, and then went on to wear a batting helmet with a special cage over it, sort of like a catcher’s mask. It was an interesting innovation, the precursor to the body armor that players have now, but it didn’t stick.
 
Here’s a question: how long until we start seeing major league pitchers wearing facemasks? I mean, every year someone gets badly hurt by a liner up the box. It happened to Chris Young this year.
 
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it happens pretty soon, and I pray it doesn’t take a Herb Score incident for it to happen. It makes fiscal sense: if I’m an owner I don’t want my $20 million dollar arm going out because of an errant line drive.
 
Dan Plesac - Tom Ayers, who sponsors the Dan Plesac page on baseballreference.com, points out that Plesac is the Brewers All-Time leader in ERA, fewest hits allowed per 9 IP, most strikeouts per 9 IP, games, and saves. I wonder if the Brewers give the Dan Plesac Award to the team’s best pitcher.
 
We have two LOOGY’s on the ballot, Plesac and Orosco. Orosco pitched in more games than anyone else in baseball history, and Plesac is sixth on that list. What’s surprising is that neither guy was ever given any chance to make it as a starting pitcher. Between them they pitched in 2316 games, with only 14 starts.
 
There’s no way to know this, but I’d bet that one of them would’ve been a fine major league starter.
 
Tim Raines – Next to Rickey, Tim Raines is the best outfielder on this list, and frankly it isn’t even close. If I had to rank ‘em I’d go Henderson, Raines, Murphy, Dawson, Parker, and Rice.
 
Jim Rice – As a player, probably on par with Gene Tenace.
 
Lee Smith – The only stat in which Lee Smith is clearly ahead of Orosco and Plesac is saves. In every other category he’s a similar pitcher to both men.
 
I don’t know if he should get in, but I think Smith will get elected to the Hall of Fame. It’s been tough for him to get elected, in part, because there were other closers (Eck, Sutter, Gossage) on the ballot. But he has a window now: it’ll be at least five years before a slam-dunk closer (Hoffman, Riviera) appears on the ballot, so Smith will have no competition for votes.
 
Alan Trammell – Another case where voters haven’t caught on to positional importance. Bill ranked Trammell #9 all-time among shortstops, a ranking I can’t argue. Here are the #9 ranked players at each position, from the Historical Baseball Abstract:  
 
C – Gabby Hartnett
1B – Willie McCovey
2B – Rod Carew
3B – Stan Hack
SS – Alan Trammell
LF – Willie Stargell
CF – Billy Hamilton
RF – Paul Waner
P – Kid Nichols
 
Greg Vaughn – Finished fourth in the MVP voting in 1998 and 1999. Only guy to hit 50 homers and then get traded.
 
Mo Vaughn – Mark McGwire has the highest OPS+ of any player on the ballot. Any guess who has the second highest OPS+?
 
One of my favorite players.  
 
Matt Williams – I mentioned Jay Bell’s spectacular power hitting for Arizona in 1999. Interestingly, Matt Williams also had a spectacular hitting year for the D’Backs in 1999, hitting .303 with 45 homers and 142 RBI’s.
 
Sort of a poor man’s Graig Nettles, I suppose: good pop, good glove. Like Nettles, Williams played on a lot of winning teams, but was eclipsed, to an extent, by better players.
 
 

COMMENTS (91 Comments, most recent shown first)

jeffsol
I know I missed the deadline, but:
Rickey
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire
Trammell
Write-in for Grich
12:56 PM Jan 19th
 
PeteDecour
blyleven, henderson, raines, trammell
9:23 AM Jan 13th
 
rnotr2
1. Ricky would vote for Ricky

2. When it Raines it pours

3. Be home Byleven (the bermanator)

4. Trammel
4:57 PM Jan 12th
 
DaveFleming
Voting closed. I'll have results up soon.
3:49 PM Jan 12th
 
BrianFleming
My vote would be:

Henderson, Raines, Blyleven, McGwire, Murphy, and Dawson (low BA and OBP but his defense makes him a more valuable player than Jim "GIDP" Rice).

I'm a big fan of filling my ballot so I'd also write in Vern Stephens (you could write an excellent article about his qualifications), Ron Santos, Dwight and Darrell Evans.
12:30 PM Jan 12th
 
ventboys
I really don't feel that strongly, I loved Blyleven. I just got off on a rant. I love doing that, I hope that something that I said makes some sense.

Sorry.
3:39 AM Jan 12th
 
ventboys
At the risk of starting an argument, I will submit that Tommy John is a better candidate than Bert Blyleven. Not a better pitcher, mind you, just a better Hall of Fame candidate.

It's nice to pretend that the better players get in. I don't have any pretentions in that regard, and I am not sure that I should. The Hall of Fame isn't a statistical dump, it's a museum. Whether Bert Blyleven was a better pitcher than Tommy John is an interesting subject. I think that there is another question, though. Was Tommy John more interesting historically than Bert Blyleven? We all know that the answer is obvious, with the surgery named after him, but even without it, as much as I respect Blyleven, I was there, man. Tommy John was up front for years, from 1974-1982. Blyleven was in the mix, but always in a supporting role. I have no problem calling Blyleven the better pitcher, but is that germane?

If I need a pitcher, I call Blyleven over Tommmy John, every time. You want to rank them, I am hip to that. Hall of Fame, though, that is just not that same thing.

I am being kind of stubborn on this, maybe, if so I am sorry. It's the Hall of Fame, though, not the Hall of good numbers. If you want to join, how about leaving a footprint, how about having someone remember you that actually saw you play?

This is weird for me to be writing. I was such a huge fan of Blyleven. Numbers guys have made a nice impact in terms of allowing us to understand the game better, but let's not get carried away. Baseball is not played on a spreadsheet. To call Blyleven something historic, because his numbers were good, is arrogance after the fact, revisionist history. I am totally hip to calling him good, calling him underrated, whatever. You want to say that he was better than a guy like Lefty Gomez, or compare him to Catfish Hunter, I won't argue at all.

Don't call him historic, though. To be historic, someone has to have done something that someone else noticed. It's not like he never played for a good team, or played in postseason. He played forever, over 20 years.

Stories, man. Tell me a Blyleven story. Tell me how he won the big game. Tell me when he had the entire country paying attention. I can do that with Tommy John, for hours. I loved Blyleven, but what did he ever do to capture anyone's imagination?

We get caught up in who's better than who, and this happens. The Hall of Fame is not a test, graded on a curve. The Hall of Fame is about who wrote baseball history. It allows guys like Bert Blyleven to be included, politely, quietly, after the fact.

To scream injustice if he isn't voted in with those that actually wrote some lore, actually made some history, actually did something that someone actually SAW, something that the media actually NOTICED, is missing the point.

Bly will bet in, and we will all clap. How about we get someone in that, when they were playing, we were actually paying attention to?
3:37 AM Jan 12th
 
masoo
I can't believe I forgot McGwire. If you're still tabulating, count him on my ballot.
8:46 PM Jan 11th
 
andrewcrichards
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
5:43 PM Jan 11th
 
MWeddell
Blyleven, Henderson, John, McGwire, Raines, Trammell,
5:24 PM Jan 11th
 
mikeg
Ricky Henderson

Dave, in 1 word(YOURS ACTUALLY), here's my criteria for the Hall of fame. "PASS". You said it yourself.

There should never be any debate/discussion about it. You shouldn't have to convince anybody. Hell, looking at the list of candidates, I was half expecting to see my snowplow operater up there. Hell, he'd have as much success as A.Dawson hitting those low & away pitches. They nicknamed him the Hawk. I'll tell ya, it sure as hell wssn't for his batting eye.

Love the site, Keep up the great work
12:54 PM Jan 11th
 
Brian
My Vote:

1)Ricky Henderson
2)Mark McGwire
3)Bert Blyleven
4)Alan Trammell
5)Tim Raines
11:40 AM Jan 11th
 
masoo
Blyleven, Rickey, Raines, Trammell
4:33 AM Jan 11th
 
vtek88
1. Rickey Henderson
2. Jim Rice
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Andre Dawson
5. Tim Raines
6. Lee Smith
7. Alan Trammell
8. Mo Vaughn
9. Harold Baines
10. Dale Murphy

I can't vote for Mark McGwire. Not because of the steroids, but because the only thing he really has going for him is the home runs and his lone Gold Glove in 1990. He has just over 1600 hits and was never really spectacular at anything except the long ball. Like someone said earlier, one statistic shouldn't keep you from getting into the hall, one shouldn't get you in either.
10:13 PM Jan 10th
 
birtelcom
Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire
7:38 PM Jan 10th
 
ventboys
Blyleven was actually top 10 in K/9 14 times, according to bbr.com. His career 6.7 per 9 innings was traced in an extremely normal pattern. Even his rankings show it:
6-6-5-3-2-3-4-5-4-4-4-6-7-7
2:26 PM Jan 10th
 
ventboys
I remember that Ryan season well, he was the probably best pitcher in the league that year, and actually even got a vote or two for the Cy Young.

That wasn't really my point, though. Blyleven was a very good pitcher, worthy of Hall selection, certainly. My point is that historically his closes comps almost exclusively have had to wait for awhile to get in. One factor that is used in his defense, at times, was that he played for bad teams. I looked it up, and that wasn't really true. I used 1977 as an example, there are others. In 1973, when he was 20-17 with terrific peripherals, his team was 86-76.

If you want to see a pitcher that was trying to lift up an albatross of a team, take a gander at Phil Neikro....
1:55 PM Jan 10th
 
DaveFleming
Blyleven might not have led the league in K/9 ever, but he was in the top-ten for twelve seasons, and had some steep competition from the likes of Ryan, Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, and Jenkins.

You cite a season when he went 14-12 with a 2.66 ERA for a 92-win team. I don't know how you want us to interpret that line, but the way I interpret it is that W-L record can be very inaccurate. In 1987 Nolan Ryan led the league in ERA and strikeouts. His W-L record was 8-16.

I'd add more, but other people have made the case for BB better than I could: http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2004/12/bert_blyleven_f_1.php
1:26 PM Jan 10th
 
ventboys
Blyleven does have one amazing stat, his career total of 60 shutouts. Other than that, his record is good, but doesn't scream great, does it? His career adjusted era+ is 118, very good but not historic. He is 5th on the alltime strikeout list, but is not listed for k/9, and never led the league. He only had more than a few token votes for the Cy Young award once, when he finished 3rd in 1984. he only made 2 allstar teams. He won 20 one time, and his total was 7th in the league. Much has been made of his records not being in line with his peripherals, but it wasn't because he was playing for bad teams. Most of his teams were at least decent. His 1977 season with Texas (14-12, 2.66 era) was for a team that won 92 games.

He was durable, incredibly durable. He was certainly very good, and I would agree that he was underrated, but isn't his record more in the manner of what has been called "a numbers compiler" than a hidden superstar? Tommy John, who was of the same type of candidate (250-300 wins, no outstanding chrome and leather other than the surgery that was named after him), played in 4 allstar games and finished 2nd twice in the Cy Young voting. I didn't vote for him, either, but I would be fine with his election, and I expect that he WILL be enshrined, by the Veterans committee. Actually, though I did vote for him, Alan Trammell is also of a type that usually has to wait for the short bus to pick him up.
11:34 PM Jan 9th
 
hmahler
1. Ricky Henderson
2. Alan Trammel
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Don Mattingly
11:10 PM Jan 9th
 
ventboys
I didn't vote for Blyeleven, though I certainly have no problem with him getting elected. I am old enough to remember him, and he wasn't ever discussed as a possible Hall of Famer until he passed 250 wins. He should eventually get in, but historically his type (250-300 wins, and not a lot of other stuff to set him apart from the pack) has had to wait for the Veterans committee.
11:07 PM Jan 9th
 
sharc
Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Rickey Henderson, Jack Morris, Mark McGwire, Alan Trammell
10:53 PM Jan 9th
 
BruceG
Henderson, Blyleven, Raines, Trammell, John, Dawson, & Murphy; plus Wetteland and Whitaker, who aren't on the ballot but should be.
10:46 PM Jan 9th
 
rgregory1956
I vote for the following five: Blyleven, Henderson, McGwire, Raines, Trammell
4:23 PM Jan 9th
 
ksclacktc
Henderson
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
2:38 PM Jan 9th
 
DaveFleming
By my spreadsheet 'kcghost' was the 50th ballot cast. That aside, 3for3's count is pretty accurate. Trammell is right on the bubble, and those that voted for him (as I did) are welcome to express their reasons why.

Also, Rice has three votes to Gene Tenace's two write-ins. Still, I'm touched that the Tenace legacy is so fondly remembered by the readers of the BJOL.
2:07 PM Jan 9th
 
ventboys
Tenace has more write in votes than Rice has real votes. Dave, that looks to me to be a great bow of respect to you...
1:26 PM Jan 9th
 
3for3
Unofficial totals so far 1/9/9 thru kcghost:

48 voters, so 36=75%

Rickey 48
Raines 45
Blyleven 40
trammell 35
McGwire 29
Dawson 9
Smith 8
John 5
Mattingly 5
Morris 4
Murphy 4
Orosco 2
Parker 1
Garvey 1
Rice 1


Danny
1:16 PM Jan 9th
 
kcghost
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
Trammell
10:02 AM Jan 9th
 
aaronB
Ricky, Bert, Tim Raines, Alan, Mark.

Next in line: Andre, Dave, Tommy, Dale. Though I'd be hard pressed to vote for any of them.
3:53 AM Jan 9th
 
sandy32
Sorry, forgot to give you my ID on that other one. One more time...Henderson, McGwire, Raines, Trammell
12:01 AM Jan 9th
 
sandy32
Henderson, McGwire, Raines, Trammell
12:00 AM Jan 9th
 
STEVE
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
Dawson
Trammell

11:24 PM Jan 8th
 
markj111
Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
6:39 PM Jan 8th
 
nickblakeley
Henderson
Blyleven
Raines
McGwire
Trammell
4:58 PM Jan 8th
 
johnnynebraska
And Blyleven. Oops.
3:31 PM Jan 8th
 
johnnynebraska
Henderson, Raines
3:28 PM Jan 8th
 
hudsongs
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
2:39 PM Jan 8th
 
chuck
Rickey, Raines, Blyleven, Trammell.
I posted a win-share look at this topic in the reader posts.

I give Matt Williams not a vote, but an honorable mention. I was at a game at Candlestick in the early 90's with the Cubs visiting. I think it was a turn-back-the-clock day. Matt Williams came out before the game with high socks (nobody wore them then) and did a spot-on pantomime of the Babe Ruth called shot. Everything- batting lefty, the batting style and warmup swings, taking two pitches, doing the horizontal "point", and letting fly. He then trotted around the bases in that odd, dainty way, and flapped his hands at the Cubs bench as he went by. It was remarkably good, and the only time I've ever been in a crowd of 40,000 plus people that were all laughing in a delighted way. Quite a sound.
A toast to Matt.
A p.s. ... The Giants tied and then won the game on two successive suicide squeezes.
2:14 PM Jan 8th
 
monahan
Blyleven
Henderson
Mattingly
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
1:08 AM Jan 8th
 
timconnelly
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
12:26 AM Jan 8th
 
lar
Here's my list, with some random comments...

Guys who I think should definitely be in the Hall:
=============================
Blyleven: I don't really remember Blyleven playing, though I do remember getting his baseball cards in the late '80s. With that said, I find it impossible to see his numbers (his wins, his strikeouts, his shutouts & complete games, etc) and not see a hall of famer. I wish someone could give me a real argument for why he doesn't belong that doesn't include "300 wins" or "no cy youngs"...

Rickey: How can you not vote for Rickey? Even forgetting the stolen bases, he scored the most runs in history and earned the most walks in history (#2 if you count the intentional walks... it's all the same). If anyone from my lifetime of watching baseball deserves to go in the Hall, it's Rickey...

Mac: I know there's the whole steroid thing, and it's significant. But, in the end, I think everyone's going to accept that it happened and looks at those numbers through that lens. Mac should be in by now.

Raines: The numbers that Raines put up during the 80s and into the 90s are pretty phenomenal, but everyone seems to forget it or just not know it, and I wonder why that is. Is it a product of the 80s, when it doesn't seem like any single person was able to break through as the "one true great player"? Is it that he played in baseball purgatory during his prime years? It's got to be something, right?

Trammell: One of the best all-around shortstops there was... I think he got penalized for playing during the Ripken-era transition to the "big shortstops" like A-Rod and Jeter and Nomar and Tejada... Trammell's numbers just don't look the same compared to those guys, and people just can't figure out how to compare them

Guys who I think are close, or who I wish well and would like to see have a long consideration phase
=============================
(Technically, a player can be either a HOFer or not, with no gray area. However, there is a gray area there... when someone can stay on the ballot for 10 or 15 years, even if they don't get in, it says something strong about their career, but when they drop off after the 1st or 2nd year, it says something else. Which is why it's sad when some players get dropped off so quickly, like Will Clark or Lou Whitaker... and that's what I mean by "players who I wish would get a long consideration phase")
Harold Baines: I really, really liked Baines as a player, when he played for the O's and when he wasn't. He was a great guy, a great teammate, and he was always a reliable player. But I don't think he ever put up the type of numbers that a "professional hitter" should to be considered for the Hall. I hope he gets some good consideration, though

Andre Dawson: There's a lot to like about Dawson's numbers, esp. considering how much of his career he gave up by playing on the terrible concrete in Montreal. But I can understand the arguments against him too... the low OBP, etc. Still, I wouldn't be upset if he was elected.

Mark Grace: Grace always seemed like a strong, consistent player. I don't think he belongs in the Hall, but it'd be nice to see him get some votes.

Don Mattingly: To me, it's pretty obvious that his career was too short to justify a Hall bid, but, for about six years, he was pretty much the best there was.

Dale Murphy: When I was growing up, it seemed like a foregone conclusion that Murphy would end up in the Hall. His offense, his personality, his back-to-back MVPs... I know that he dropped off the table pretty quickly, so I can understand that his career never ended where it was expected and that he never quite reached those HOF levels. Still, Murphy's the kind of guy that you want people to keep considering, since it's really the only honor left.

Jesse Orosco: The first baseball game that I have a vivid memory of attending, from the drive down the freeway through all 9 innings, was an Indians at Angels game in August 1989 (I know I went to many other Angels and Dodgers games when I was much younger, but I can't remember any specific ones). We sat in left field, about 8 seats over from the bullpen (Lance Parrish hit a ball directly at our seats, but it curved foul at the last minute - this was a very memorable event to an 8 year old). Anyhow, I remember distinctly Jesse Orosco came in for the Indians during the seventh inning to face Wally Joyner. And then, 14 years later, I saw the Padres play the Dodgers in LA, and Jesse Orosco came in during the 8th to strike out Shawn Green and Fred McGriff. I know that's not very interesting to everybody else, but I think it's a pretty good example of the guy's career.
11:57 PM Jan 7th
 
elricsi
Blyleven
Dawson
Henderson
John
McGwire
Orosco
Raines
9:04 PM Jan 7th
 
cunegonde
Henderson, for certain. I'd also vote for Blyleven and Raines, although neither is a slam dunk in my book.

My prediction, BTW, is that Henderson and Rice will make it, no others this time around.
8:49 PM Jan 7th
 
hammer2525
Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
8:22 PM Jan 7th
 
clayyearsley
Henderson
Raines
McGwire
6:32 PM Jan 7th
 
rjones1968
Henderson
Raines
McGuire
Trammell
Murphy
5:38 PM Jan 7th
 
DaveFleming
Team of back-to-back MVP's:
P - Newhouser
C - Berra
1B - Gehrig, Thomas
2B - Morgan
3B - Schmidt
SS - Banks
LF - Bonds
CF - Mantle, Murphy
RF - Maris
5:28 PM Jan 7th
 
RoyalsFan
Rickey
4:18 PM Jan 7th
 
bbbilbo
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
Trammell
McGwire
Murphy
Orosco
Mattingly
Morris
Garvey
3:48 PM Jan 7th
 
tiller88
My votes:

Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire

The rest of the popular field - Rice, Dawson, Morris, Mattingly, simply do not measure up. In real life, I believe Rice will indeed get in this year with Rickey, and while Blyleven's momentum is increasing it may not yet be up to 75%. However, I'll be very surprised if the members of this site don't push him over that threshold in this poll.
3:43 PM Jan 7th
 
THBR
Baines, Blyleven, Henderson, John, McGwire, Murphy, Trammell. I promised myself not to make comments, but I have to say: HOW can Dale Murphy be overlooked? And you forgot to mention he's on the Complete Team Made Up of Consecutive MVP Winners. (if you view outfielders as interchangeable)
2:28 PM Jan 7th
 
DaveFleming
Yeah, I skewed the numbers to favor Baines, and there's no way he's a HOF'er. It's kinda gimmicky to use four or five stats to generate a list like that, and I was just trying to throw the guy a bone. I know Bill was a big fan of Baines.

Roel's comment about the possibility that seeing how others vote might alter the votes is interesting, but there's something to be said for transparency.

Out here in Iowa, the Democratic party decides their Presidential candidate through a caucus system, which basically involves getting together in a room and grouping yourselves by the candidate you support. You are then allowed to try to persuade people in other groups to come to your group, and support your candidate. It involves a lot of yelling, and is rather chaotic.

There's a lot of controversy around the Iowa caucus: the Democrats process have to state their support of a candidate, in front of friends and neighbors, which denies the voter the right to a private vote. On the other hand, caucusing requires a lot of effort and thought, which might not be such a bad thing when it comes to picking a President.

Same thing applies to the HOF vote: if there was greater transparency in the real vote, I think we'd see people taking their votes more seriously.
2:14 PM Jan 7th
 
enamee
RE Dave Fleming's comment on Baines:

That's skewing things pretty heavily in Baines' favor. What if you looked for players with 2600-3000 hits, 350-410 homers, 1400-1800 RBI, and a .275-.295 average? I have no idea what you'd find, but it would be a more comparable sample than the list you posted.

Baines' career numbers would be fine if he had anything remotely resembling a Hall of Fame peak. Frankly, Rusty Staub is far more a Hall of Famer than Baines, as his career value was greater and his peak was higher.
1:58 PM Jan 7th
 
enamee
RE Dave Fleming's comment on Baines:

That's skewing things pretty heavily in Baines' favor. What if you looked for players with 2600-3000 hits, 350-410 homers, 1400-1800 RBI, and a .275-.295 average? I have no idea what you'd find, but it would be a more comparable sample than the list you posted.

Baines' career numbers would be fine if he had anything remotely resembling a Hall of Fame peak. Frankly, Rusty Staub is far more a Hall of Famer than Baines, as his career value was greater and his peak was higher.
1:31 PM Jan 7th
 
chisox
Somehow I overlooked Rickey Henderson. He should be in.
12:51 PM Jan 7th
 
ventboys
I would say that Baines is fairly similar to Rusty Staub.
12:42 PM Jan 7th
 
azhitnik
Interesting comment Roel, I wrote my choices down before looking at the votes, so I guess I'm clean.

Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
12:31 PM Jan 7th
 
lshiman
Blyleven, Henderson, McGwire, Trammell.

That said, I don't think Blyleven was as good as people say, nor Rice as bad, but I'm not voting for him.

I forgot to add Raines. Him too.
12:13 PM Jan 7th
 
lshiman
Blyleven, Henderson, McGwire, Trammell.

That said, I don't think Blyleven was as good as people say, nor Rice as bad, but I'm not voting for him.
12:12 PM Jan 7th
 
tbookas
Blyleven,Henderson,Raines,Trammell
11:44 AM Jan 7th
 
evanecurb
Blyleven
Raines
Henderson
Trammell
McGwire
Lee Smith

11:32 AM Jan 7th
 
abywaters
1. Henderson 2. McGwire 3. Blyleven 4. Raines
11:03 AM Jan 7th
 
chisox
Blyleven.
Dawson.
Raines.

And, of course, my write-in would be Gene Tenace.
11:03 AM Jan 7th
 
mkrob
Rickey Henderson
Lee Smith
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
10:19 AM Jan 7th
 
DaveFleming
Guys who have 2800 hits, 380 homers, 1600 RBI's, and a .285 batting average:

Bonds, Aaron, Ruth, Mays, F. Robinson, Palmiero, Ott, Murray, Musial, Yaz, Harold Baines.
9:49 AM Jan 7th
 
rowen
Blyleven, Henderson, McGwire, Morris, Raines, Trammell
9:19 AM Jan 7th
 
3for3
Blyleven
Henderson
MM
Raines
Tramell

Danny
8:38 AM Jan 7th
 
schoolshrink
Henderson
John
Trammel
Blyleven
Murphy
Cone
Parker
Dawson
Rice
Morris

I would be happy for any of these ten. I couldn't care less if neither Rose nor McGuire were in the Hall of Fame.

8:35 AM Jan 7th
 
bokonin
Blyleven, Henderson, John, McGwire, Murphy, Raines, Trammell
12:59 AM Jan 7th
 
ventboys
Dawson
McGwire
Murphy
Mattingly
Raines
Henderson
Trammell
Tenace (just kidding)
10:35 PM Jan 6th
 
enamee
Blyleven
Henderson
John
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
10:32 PM Jan 6th
 
LanceRichardson
Blyleven
henderson
Trammell
McGwire
Raines
10:26 PM Jan 6th
 
Bucky
Blyleven, Henderson, Raines, Trammell...I'm kind of in a "Big Hall" mood, so I would include Smith and Dawson.
10:17 PM Jan 6th
 
jpjeter16
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
8:15 PM Jan 6th
 
Jongro
Henderson, Raines, Blyleven, McGwire.
7:32 PM Jan 6th
 
JOHNGARCIA
Henderson
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
6:54 PM Jan 6th
 
wydiyd
Blyleven, Hederson, Raines

Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Very Good
6:54 PM Jan 6th
 
mp3305
Henderson, Raines, McGwire
6:21 PM Jan 6th
 
DaveFleming
Just to illustrate how hard it is for a guy to get 100% of the vote: by the fourth ballot listed here, only one guy was still unanimous.
5:13 PM Jan 6th
 
DaveFleming
Just to illustrate how hard it is for a guy to get 100% of the vote: by the fourth ballot listed here, only one guy was still unanimous.
5:11 PM Jan 6th
 
DaveFleming
I suppose I'll add my two cents:

Blyleven
Henderson
Mattingly
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
5:09 PM Jan 6th
 
demedici
Small Haller: Raines and Henderson
5:02 PM Jan 6th
 
RoelTorres
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
4:58 PM Jan 6th
 
RoelTorres
I just want to mention the fact that this isn't a blind vote and we can see the running results before we make our choices, could influence the outcome. In a perfect world, we would vote blindly, yet be held accountable for our choices after the final tally.
4:53 PM Jan 6th
 
doncoffin
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell


4:05 PM Jan 6th
 
77royals
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire
Henderson
Trammell
Dawson
Smith

I know Dawson had a low OBP, but what about the rest of the numbers. One number shouldn't put a guy in the Hall. One numbers shouldn't keep him out.

See Blyleven for additional proof.
3:18 PM Jan 6th
 
taosjohn
Bleyleven, Henderson, McGwire.

I'm not sure its fair of me but I can't bring myself to vote for Trammell without Whitaker...
3:18 PM Jan 6th
 
Trailbzr
Henderson, Raines, Trammell
I'm tough.
(I wish we could toss half the guys from the 20s.)

2:45 PM Jan 6th
 
dmcmurray
Blyleven
Dawson
Henderson
Morris
Raines
Rice
Smith
Trammell

I only voted for 8, since I did not think there were 10 worth voting for.
1:55 PM Jan 6th
 
agcohen
From those eligible, my votes go to
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

In addition, while he has been retired for more than 20 years now and so is beyond the ordinary voting window, it is a travesty that Pete Rose, the all-time hits leader, is not in the hall of fame, and so I will give him a vote as well. While his ban from baseball for gambling is justly deserved, that ban should apply only toward his having anything to do with current teams and in no way diminishes his performance as a player and should not exclude him from the HOF.
1:07 PM Jan 6th
 
 
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