If you had to guess an answer to the question listed above, how would you answer it? What’s your first instinct? Your gut-reaction?
My gut reaction is that good players would make terrible managers. If I had to say why, I’d say that it has to do with a specific aspect of human nature; namely that all of us interpret our perception of the world as a universal thing. If we see, say, an image of suffering, or an image of beauty, we have an expectation that everyone understands and interprets that image in a similar way. We strive for relativism, but are undone by ego.
I’m not making sense, am I?
Here’s a better example: Ted Williams was probably the smartest hitter to ever play professional baseball. But as a manager for the Senators, Teddy would routinely get pissed off at his player’s inability to do things he did. Why couldn’t they see that pitch was four inches off the goddamn plate? How come they didn’t know a change-up was coming?
You see where I’m going? Williams imagined that everyone had the capacity to judge ball from strike just like he did. He didn’t buy all that crap about his miracle eyesight. He thought, “Damnit, you just gotta work at it.”
Forced to guess, I think most of us would assume that great ballplayers make lousy managers because great players have a fundamentally different experience with the game than a lousy player has. A great player understands success, while a lousy player understands struggle and failure. A good player had a gift that carries him blissfully through his years on the diamond. A lousy player, by contrast has to work hard and adapt and learn how to stay in the game.
Great Players Turned Managers: Overall
Below is a list showing the managerial record of all of player/managers elected to the baseball Hall of Fame, who were elected as players.
This is an important point: I didn’t list guys like Miller Higgins or Tommy Lasorda or Sparky Anderson or Earl Weaver, because they weren’t great players.
There are a few difficult cases. Al Lopez was a fine catcher and a terrific manager. He’s not on the list. Same holds true for John McGraw. Both men made significant contributions as players, but they weren’t elected to the Hall of Fame as players.
I drew a hard line, and this obviously diminishes the record of the player/managers, as McGraw and Lopez would obviously skew the numbers in favor of good players. To put the great players at a further disadvantage, I left off a lot of near-Hall of Fame players who would sway the numbers further. Joe Torre and Gil Hodges are near-Hall of Famers, but they’re off the list. Same thing holds for Dusty Baker, Don Baylor, Mike Scoscia, Tony Pena, and Davey Lopes: they were fine players who posted excellent managerial records.
Another point: I used a cut-off. You had to manage at least 80 games.
When I originally posted this article, I was (unknowingly) using a cut-off of 500 games. The problem with this cut-off was quickly pointed out by Richie: you have to be a good manager to manage 500 games.
I’m still using a cut-off. Cy Young was 3-3 as a manager. Honus Wagner was 1-4 as a manager. Ed Walsh was 1-2. They don’t belong on the list. Tommy McCarthy was 15-12 as a manager. I don’t think that’s a reasonable measure. Luke Appling was 10-30. Rabbit Maranville was 23-30. There are a few other Hall-of-Famers who had really brief tenures as managers. If they didn’t get to 80 games I left ‘em off the list.
So we’re left with forty-five truly great players who also managed. Here are their records, listed by win percentage:
NAME
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
Frank Chance
|
1594
|
946
|
648
|
.593
|
Mickey Cochrane
|
598
|
348
|
250
|
.582
|
Cap Anson
|
2243
|
1296
|
947
|
.578
|
Fred Clarke
|
2783
|
1602
|
1181
|
.576
|
John Ward
|
732
|
412
|
320
|
.563
|
Bill Terry
|
1484
|
823
|
661
|
.555
|
Buck Ewing
|
884
|
489
|
395
|
.553
|
Walter Johnson
|
961
|
529
|
432
|
.550
|
Nap Lajoie
|
686
|
377
|
309
|
.550
|
Jimmy Collins
|
831
|
455
|
376
|
.548
|
Hughie Jennings
|
2179
|
1184
|
995
|
.543
|
Bill Dickey
|
105
|
57
|
48
|
.543
|
Tris Speaker
|
1137
|
617
|
520
|
.543
|
Joe Cronin
|
2291
|
1236
|
1055
|
.540
|
King Kelly
|
321
|
173
|
148
|
.539
|
Pie Traynor
|
863
|
457
|
406
|
.530
|
Yogi Berra
|
928
|
484
|
444
|
.522
|
Red Schoendienst
|
1996
|
1041
|
955
|
.522
|
Eddie Collins
|
334
|
174
|
160
|
.521
|
Ty Cobb
|
923
|
479
|
444
|
.519
|
Bob Lemon
|
833
|
430
|
403
|
.516
|
Frankie Frisch
|
2216
|
1138
|
1078
|
.514
|
Joe Kelley
|
659
|
338
|
321
|
.513
|
Joe Gordon
|
613
|
305
|
308
|
.498
|
Joe Tinker
|
612
|
304
|
308
|
.497
|
Jim O'Rourke
|
504
|
246
|
258
|
.488
|
Lou Boudreau
|
2386
|
1162
|
1224
|
.487
|
Christy Mathewson
|
340
|
164
|
176
|
.482
|
Eddie Mathews
|
310
|
149
|
161
|
.481
|
Kid Nichols
|
168
|
80
|
88
|
.476
|
Max Carey
|
307
|
146
|
161
|
.476
|
Frank Robinson
|
2241
|
1065
|
1176
|
.475
|
George Sisler
|
459
|
218
|
241
|
.475
|
Mel Ott
|
994
|
464
|
530
|
.467
|
Rogers Hornsby
|
1513
|
701
|
812
|
.463
|
Ray Schalk
|
227
|
102
|
125
|
.449
|
Hugh Duffy
|
1206
|
535
|
671
|
.444
|
George Davis
|
246
|
107
|
139
|
.435
|
Burleigh Grimes
|
302
|
131
|
171
|
.434
|
Roger Bresnahan
|
760
|
328
|
432
|
.432
|
Ted Lyons
|
430
|
185
|
245
|
.430
|
Ted Williams
|
637
|
273
|
364
|
.429
|
Larry Doby
|
87
|
37
|
50
|
.425
|
Billy Herman
|
463
|
189
|
274
|
.408
|
Dave Bancroft
|
612
|
249
|
363
|
.407
|
|
42998
|
22225
|
20773
|
.517
|
Interestingly, 23 of the 45 players have winning records as managers.
A quick point, which I’ll come back to later: it’s worth mentioning that a manager’s record doesn’t tell the whole story. Ted Williams has the second-worst record of any manager, but for that he turned around a lousy Washington team and landing a Manager-of-the-Year award. Same holds true for Frank Robinson: he was a good manager saddled with lousy teams.
Also: a lot of these guys were player-managers, and as such they had the benefit of at least one Hall of Fame-quality player on their team. How much did it help Mickey Cochrane the manager to have Mickey Cochrane the catcher as his catcher?
Great Players Turned Managers: Generations
I wanted to look at the list of great-players-turned-managers in a few different ways. Because of the small sample size (thirty careers), I’ll resist drawing too many conclusions about anything.
One reader was wise to point out that there are fewer former players managing in baseball today. It makes sense because there are fewer incentives on players becoming managers than there were in the past. Decades ago, players didn’t have pensions and salaries and memorabilia shows to pad their retirement incomes. For guys like Chance and Hornsby, managing was a way to stay employed. In today’s game, players hardly need such motivations.
There is a second factor, which is that the transition to becoming a manager is far tougher for today’s players than it was fifty years ago. I watch a lot of minor league baseball out here in Iowa, and I remember being surprised to see Ryne Sandberg standing in the dugout of a Single-A team. It didn’t matter that he’s a great player: to manage in the major leagues you now have to earn the position.
Here are the forty-five players listed above fall into three loose ‘generations’, based on the year they started managing:
Generation 1: The Dead-Ballers
These are the old-timers, guys who were typically player/managers, who managed rough-and-tumble teams in those pre-Ruthian days. Of the eighteen player/managers listed here, eleven have winning records. As a whole, they have a remarkable .540 winning percentage.
NAME
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
YEAR
|
Frank Chance
|
1594
|
946
|
648
|
.593
|
1905
|
Cap Anson
|
2243
|
1296
|
947
|
.578
|
1875
|
Fred Clarke
|
2783
|
1602
|
1181
|
.576
|
1897
|
John Ward
|
732
|
412
|
320
|
.563
|
1880
|
Buck Ewing
|
884
|
489
|
395
|
.553
|
1890
|
Nap Lajoie
|
686
|
377
|
309
|
.550
|
1905
|
Jimmy Collins
|
831
|
455
|
376
|
.548
|
1901
|
Hughie Jennings
|
2179
|
1184
|
995
|
.543
|
1907
|
Tris Speaker
|
1137
|
617
|
520
|
.543
|
1919
|
King Kelly
|
321
|
173
|
148
|
.539
|
1888
|
Joe Kelley
|
659
|
338
|
321
|
.513
|
1902
|
Joe Tinker
|
612
|
304
|
308
|
.497
|
1913
|
Jim O'Rourke
|
504
|
246
|
258
|
.488
|
1881
|
Christy Mathewson
|
340
|
164
|
176
|
.482
|
1916
|
Kid Nichols
|
168
|
80
|
88
|
.476
|
1904
|
Hugh Duffy
|
1206
|
535
|
671
|
.444
|
1901
|
George Davis
|
246
|
107
|
139
|
.435
|
1895
|
Roger Bresnahan
|
760
|
328
|
432
|
.432
|
1909
|
18 players
|
17885
|
9653
|
8232
|
.540
|
|
Generation 2: The High-Offense Managers
These guys managed as the game of baseball was experiencing a number of dramatic changes. Of the fourteen players listed here, eight have winning records, and were it not for the abysmal records of Dave Bancroft and Rogers Hornsby, this group would be more impressive than the generation ahead of it.
NAME
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
YEAR
|
Mickey Cochrane
|
598
|
348
|
250
|
.582
|
1934
|
Bill Terry
|
1484
|
823
|
661
|
.555
|
1932
|
Walter Johnson
|
961
|
529
|
432
|
.550
|
1929
|
Joe Cronin
|
2291
|
1236
|
1055
|
.540
|
1933
|
Pie Traynor
|
863
|
457
|
406
|
.530
|
1934
|
Eddie Collins
|
334
|
174
|
160
|
.521
|
1924
|
Ty Cobb
|
923
|
479
|
444
|
.519
|
1921
|
Frankie Frisch
|
2216
|
1138
|
1078
|
.514
|
1933
|
Max Carey
|
307
|
146
|
161
|
.476
|
1932
|
George Sisler
|
459
|
218
|
241
|
.475
|
1924
|
Rogers Hornsby
|
1513
|
701
|
812
|
.463
|
1927
|
Ray Schalk
|
227
|
102
|
125
|
.449
|
1927
|
Burleigh Grimes
|
302
|
131
|
171
|
.434
|
1937
|
Dave Bancroft
|
612
|
249
|
363
|
.407
|
1924
|
14 players
|
13090
|
6731
|
6359
|
.514
|
|
Generation 3: Everyone Else
Great players were far less inclined to manage, and they did a much poorer job than previous player/managers. Of the recent great players-turned-managers, only four have winning records.
NAME
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
YEAR
|
Bill Dickey
|
105
|
57
|
48
|
.543
|
1946
|
Yogi Berra
|
928
|
484
|
444
|
.522
|
1964
|
Red Schoendienst
|
1996
|
1041
|
955
|
.522
|
1965
|
Bob Lemon
|
833
|
430
|
403
|
.516
|
1970
|
Joe Gordon
|
613
|
305
|
308
|
.498
|
1958
|
Lou Boudreau
|
2386
|
1162
|
1224
|
.487
|
1942
|
Eddie Mathews
|
310
|
149
|
161
|
.481
|
1972
|
Frank Robinson
|
2241
|
1065
|
1176
|
.475
|
1975
|
Mel Ott
|
994
|
464
|
530
|
.467
|
1942
|
Ted Lyons
|
430
|
185
|
245
|
.430
|
1946
|
Ted Williams
|
637
|
273
|
364
|
.429
|
1969
|
Larry Doby
|
87
|
37
|
50
|
.425
|
1978
|
Billy Herman
|
463
|
189
|
274
|
.408
|
1947
|
13 players
|
12023
|
5841
|
6182
|
.486
|
|
It would be easy to draw the conclusion that great players once made good managers, but now they don’t.
I would suggest a slightly different interpretation: great players are no longer expected to manage, and those who have an inclination to manage are often shackled to lousy teams. Ted Williams wasn’t hired by the Red Sox, but by the lowly Senators. Bob Lemon managed a lousy Yankee team to a division title, and was fired for his efforts. Frank Robinson managed loser teams for fifteen years.
Ted Williams, he has the second-worst record of any of these managers. But he was a good manager: in his first stint the Senators went from a 65-96 record to an 86-76 mark, improving by 21 games. Not surprisingly, the hitters improved dramatically, going from an OPS+ of 97 in 1968 to an OPS+ of 112 in 1969. (I used OPS+ because every team in baseball scored more runs in 1969 than 1968.)
Great Players Turned Managers: By Position
Here’s a play on the first question: what position makes the best manager? Are catchers typically good managers, or shortstops? What about outfielders?
Here are the players, listed by position grouping. I’ve ranked the positions from best managerial record to worst.
NAME
|
POS
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
Frank Chance
|
Corn. In.
|
1594
|
946
|
648
|
.593
|
Cap Anson
|
Corn. In.
|
2243
|
1296
|
947
|
.578
|
Bill Terry
|
Corn. In.
|
1484
|
823
|
661
|
.555
|
Jimmy Collins
|
Corn. In.
|
831
|
455
|
376
|
.548
|
Pie Traynor
|
Corn. In.
|
863
|
457
|
406
|
.530
|
Eddie Mathews
|
Corn. In.
|
310
|
149
|
161
|
.481
|
George Sisler
|
Corn. In.
|
459
|
218
|
241
|
.475
|
|
|
7784
|
4344
|
3440
|
.558
|
Surprisingly, the corner infielders do the best, with all five men having winning records as managers. John McGraw was also a middle-infielder, as was Gil Hodges (who had a poor winning percentage but a World Series ring).
NAME
|
POS
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
Mickey Cochrane
|
C
|
598
|
348
|
250
|
.582
|
Buck Ewing
|
C
|
884
|
489
|
395
|
.553
|
Bill Dickey
|
C
|
105
|
57
|
48
|
.543
|
Yogi Berra
|
C
|
928
|
484
|
444
|
.522
|
Ray Schalk
|
C
|
227
|
102
|
125
|
.449
|
Roger Bresnahan
|
C
|
760
|
328
|
432
|
.432
|
|
|
3502
|
1808
|
1694
|
.516
|
Catchers also do very well as managers, which is not surprising. Interestingly, none of these catchers had particularly long managerial careers, which shows just how tough it is to be a major-league catcher.
NAME
|
POS
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
John Ward
|
Mid. In.
|
732
|
412
|
320
|
.563
|
Nap Lajoie
|
Mid. In.
|
686
|
377
|
309
|
.550
|
Hughie Jennings
|
Mid. In.
|
2179
|
1184
|
995
|
.543
|
Joe Cronin
|
Mid. In.
|
2291
|
1236
|
1055
|
.540
|
Red Schoendienst
|
Mid. In.
|
1996
|
1041
|
955
|
.522
|
Eddie Collins
|
Mid. In.
|
334
|
174
|
160
|
.521
|
Frankie Frisch
|
Mid. In.
|
2216
|
1138
|
1078
|
.514
|
Joe Gordon
|
Mid. In.
|
613
|
305
|
308
|
.498
|
Joe Tinker
|
Mid. In.
|
612
|
304
|
308
|
.497
|
Lou Boudreau
|
Mid. In.
|
2386
|
1162
|
1224
|
.487
|
Rogers Hornsby
|
Mid. In.
|
1513
|
701
|
812
|
.463
|
George Davis
|
Mid. In.
|
246
|
107
|
139
|
.435
|
Billy Herman
|
Mid. In.
|
463
|
189
|
274
|
.408
|
Dave Bancroft
|
Mid. In.
|
612
|
249
|
363
|
.407
|
|
|
16879
|
8579
|
8300
|
.508
|
This is another group I figured would do well. They didn’t. Half of the middle-infield managers had sub-.500 records.
To me, this illustrates why we no longer have player/managers: it’s just not effective. Most of these guys were player/managers, guys who had to manage their teams while simultaneously fielding their positions. And they didn’t do a great job of it.
NAME
|
POS
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
Fred Clarke
|
OF
|
2783
|
1602
|
1181
|
.576
|
Tris Speaker
|
OF
|
1137
|
617
|
520
|
.543
|
King Kelly
|
OF
|
321
|
173
|
148
|
.539
|
Ty Cobb
|
OF
|
923
|
479
|
444
|
.519
|
Joe Kelley
|
OF
|
659
|
338
|
321
|
.513
|
Jim O'Rourke
|
OF
|
504
|
246
|
258
|
.488
|
Max Carey
|
OF
|
307
|
146
|
161
|
.476
|
Frank Robinson
|
OF
|
2241
|
1065
|
1176
|
.475
|
Mel Ott
|
OF
|
994
|
464
|
530
|
.467
|
Hugh Duffy
|
OF
|
1206
|
535
|
671
|
.444
|
Ted Williams
|
OF
|
637
|
273
|
364
|
.429
|
Larry Doby
|
OF
|
87
|
37
|
50
|
.425
|
|
|
11799
|
5975
|
5824
|
.506
|
One thing worth noting is that the better defensive outfielders generally have the best managerial records. Fred Clarke was a fast outfielder prone to making dramatic catches. Tris Speaker and Cobb were fine centerfielders. Frank Robinson was a good fielder and a better manager than his record suggests. By contrast, the guys with the losing records are corner OF’ers and lackluster fielders.
I said ‘generally’: Hugh Duffy throws a wrench in the theory, as he was a damned fine outfielder, but a poor manager. And he wasn’t that bad: it was hardly his fault that the Red Sox turned into a farm club for the Yankees in 1921 and 1922.
NAME
|
POS
|
G
|
W
|
L
|
PCT
|
Walter Johnson
|
P
|
961
|
529
|
432
|
.550
|
Bob Lemon
|
P
|
833
|
430
|
403
|
.516
|
Christy Mathewson
|
P
|
340
|
164
|
176
|
.482
|
Kid Nichols
|
P
|
168
|
80
|
88
|
.476
|
Burleigh Grimes
|
P
|
302
|
131
|
171
|
.434
|
Ted Lyons
|
P
|
430
|
185
|
245
|
.430
|
|
|
3034
|
1519
|
1515
|
.501
|
The pitchers did the worst as managers, with only Johnson and Bob Lemon having winning records. Like catchers, pitchers have short managerial careers. This is surprising, as pitching is certainly the most cerebral position in baseball.
Conclusion
Up to this point, I’ve resisted drawing any real conclusions about these numbers. As I said earlier, one’s managerial record isn’t a great measure of how good a manager someone is. It’d be better to measure these guys against their team’s record before they arrived, and after they left. It’d be nice to know the contexts around their coaching. But this gives us a start on the discussion.
I’ll say this, though: my expectations were wrong. Maybe great players aren’t great managers, but they’re pretty good managers.
(Dave Fleming is a writer living in Iowa City. He would like the Yankees to know that he is left-handed and will not insist on an opt-out clause. He welcomes comments, questions, and nine-figure contract offers here and at dfleming1986@yahoo.com)